Vaccine

[Desert Hound]

This guy makes some very good points.

"I am a 27 year military veteran of both the Air Force and Army, a board certified emergency physician and employee of a Big Hospital system. I am a graduate of a Big 10 University School of Medicine and completed my residency at a prestigious institution

I am not anti vaccine. I am anti vaccine mandate, particularly in the case of the novel mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna. As with all of you, I watched in horror from my position at a big hospital in February 2020 as COVID-19 ravaged Italy. The virus was spreading globally, nothing seemed to stop it, and thousands were dying with no effective treatment to be found. It was truly a nightmare scenario.

Physicians and scientists were collaborating globally using Facebook and Twitter to speed the spread of new information and ideas around the world within minutes. Major scientific journals expedited the release and publication of COVID related articles and made them free to access. It was amazing. This was going to be a global triumph. But then politics joined the fray. And when politics and science mix, science loses. What the government scientists spoke was the truth, everything else was labelled misinformation and banned.

For centuries the scientific method invited questions, invited curiosity. Stupid questions and fringe ideas overturned scientific dogma throughout history. It is how we advance science. We question results, question truth, keep experimenting. But when politics and science mix, science loses. Fringe ideas such as a heliocentric solar system get Copernicus and Galileo thrown out of the church. Offering an alternative treatment to COVID, or questioning the effectiveness of masks gets you banned from Facebook and YouTube.

The family of coronaviruses is fairly common. It along with rhinovirus, adenovirus and enterovirus typically cause symptoms of the common cold. A vaccine which can tackle some or all of these viruses would be a windfall for any pharmaceutical company. Cure for the common cold. But the cure does not exist. Prior to 2020, we have never successfully made a vaccine against the coronavirus. Prior to 2020, we have also never made a vaccine using the mRNA technology. But, within months of isolating SARS COV-2, we not only have a vaccine against a coronavirus, but one using mRNA technology, AND near simultaneous release by several companies globally."

 

[Desert Hound]

Continued....

"This should warrant cautious optimism from the medical and scientific community. Yes it works, but is it safe? Is it necessary? By the time of release of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines in late 2020, we were gaining control of the pandemic. We were finding effective treatment strategies, deaths were down. We identified vulnerable populations. The vaccine was promising, but the urgency was waning. It left time for careful consideration. Be scientists. Ask questions. What are the side effects? How long does immunity last? Is it effective against variants? What are the longer term, unseen effects? We don’t know. Let’s find out.


The majority of COVID-19 deaths are in people over 60 with other significant medical problems. It is reasonable to focus vaccine efforts on this population. There may be some unseen risk to the vaccine, but they stand a significant chance of dying from COVID. The benefit outweighs the risk. That is a decision we make all the time in medicine. The treatment has drawbacks, but the disease is worse. But in the less vulnerable population? Let’s wait a little bit. There are two novel aspects to this vaccine. The mRNA mechanism, and the Coronavirus target. We need careful consideration to find out what the risks of the vaccine really are.
That did not happen. When politics and science mix, science loses. Hurry up! Vaccinate everyone. We will restrict you until you are vaccinated. No 4th of July if we don’t reach vaccination goals! Hurry up!
AstraZeneca was the first to be pulled in Europe because of unanticipated blood clotting issues. The Johnson and Johnson adenovirus vector vaccine faced some early questions here at home. Healthy people were getting ill, suffering long term appetite suppression and cardiomyopathy after the vaccine. Wait. Stop. Slow down. Let’s take time to look at this closer before we forge ahead. No. When politics and science mix, science loses. Just shut up and take the jab. You are banned from Facebook for spreading misinformation about your vaccine side effects."

 

[Desert Hound]

Continued...


"The vaccine was designed for the original COVID. We are now Delta dominant. Cases are surging. Companies are mandating the vaccine with threat of firing for noncompliance, mandating the vaccine to fly, mandating the vaccine to attend a game. The FDA made a hasty approval of the Pfizer vaccine, and the floodgates have opened. Now, under the thin veneer of FDA approval, more companies, my hospital included, are mandating the vaccine in order to remain employed.

The hospital’s rationale is that the Delta surge is driven by the unvaccinated. Is this true? The data out of Israel, who is months ahead of our curve with Delta says the opposite. Those who have never had COVID, but did receive the full 2 dose Pfizer regimen are 13 times more likely to get Delta than those with natural immunity, those who contracted the original COVID and recovered. 13 times more likely to contract Delta if you are vaccinated.

And of those who were vaccinated and contracted Delta, how long was it between vaccination and infection with Delta? Four months. Israelis were vaccinated in Jan/Feb and contracted Delta by June.

So we have a twice novel vaccine with known immediate side effects, no long term study , and which only seems to be effective against the current variant for 4-6 months. Will “take the jab or be fired” be a recurring threat from Big Hospital going forward? Every 6 months, get your booster or you are fired?

They reply “But those who are vaccinated and contract Delta don’t get as sick!” Right, but they are still contagious, and now not sick enough to stay home. And if there is a risk of harm from taking a new vaccine, and the only benefit is that I get less sick, that choice should be mine, not forced under threat of unemployment."

 

[Desert Hound]

Continued.


"And speaking about long term effects, are we seeing any now? Long term effects are just that. They happen months or years later. This is why a new drug takes years to come to market. The FDA graveyard is littered with medications which made it through the approval process, only to be recalled due to an unforeseen long term consequence. Try to buy Zantac, a once popular OTC antacid, at CVS. It was just recalled because an impurity causes cancer. Didn’t see that coming. Vioxx, thalidomide, fen-phen… oops.

What are the long term effects of the mRNA vaccine? Who knows. There is early evidence of decreased numbers of an immune cell called CD-8 T cells immediately following vaccination. These cells are part of the early surveillance team which seeks out and destroys cells infected with viruses or are abnormally growing cancerous cells. Dr. Ryan Cole, a pathologist and immunologist in Idaho has noticed an increase in invasive melanomas, endometrial cancer, and cervical dysplasia as well as common viral infections such as molluscum, HPV and HSV. These are typically conditions a healthy immune system with functioning CD-8 cells would knock out before you even knew about it. But in post vaccinated people, these infections and cancer are quickly becoming more common. Suppressed T cells are not there to stop it. This is anecdote, not a published study, but this is the kind of thing that spurs questions in a healthy scientific community. We consider the issue, study it find the data, prove the hypothesis. But in today’s world, Dr. Cole is labelled a kook, ostracized, videos deleted from YouTube for spreading misinformation. Questioning the dogma.

There is also a study published in the UK which identifies antibody dependent enhancement facilitating infection with Delta. Antibody dependent enhancement is a case where the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta strain into your cells. Instead of making it less likely you will get sick, it makes you more likely. This may explain the Israeli data. This is actual data, published by the British Infection Association. There are long term consequences out there, we just haven’t taken the time necessary to find them."

 

[Desert Hound]

Continued...


"The Big Hospital policy cites acceptance of the vaccine by the American College of Gynecologists and Obstetricians (ACOG). Give the vaccine to pregnant women. Really? Where is the caution here? Most medications, common medications prescribed frequently to pregnant women, reglan, zofran, phenergran, tylenol, carry the warning on the package insert that they are not well studied in pregnancy, and use is cautioned. We use them because there are decades of use that show them to be probably safe, but still counsel patients before prescribing. The vaccine? Just give it! It is safe! Despite the fact that it is not possible to have a cohort of newborns large enough to show detrimental effect. Disgraceful. What possible reason is there for the rush? When politics and science mix, science loses

It may turn out that the Pfizer vaccine was key in our victory over COVID. This may also be a dark time for science and medicine where we allowed our process to be subverted by politics, and patients lost.

In medicine we talk about informed decision making. The old, paternalistic, directive medicine is in the past. We involve patients in their care, inform them, allow them to make the decisions, right or wrong. Politics mixed with science, science has lost and we have now returned to the paternalistic directive medicine of “vaccinate or else”."

 

[Keepermom2]

Ignore this if you don't like facts.

Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History

American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together “Pfizer”) have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from...

www.justice.gov

What is your point beyond the headline? I was bated and clicked and what I found is this....

"Pfizer promoted the sale of Bextra for several uses and dosages that the FDA specifically declined to approve due to safety concerns. The company will pay a criminal fine of $1.195 billion, the largest criminal fine ever imposed in the United States for any matter. Pharmacia & Upjohn will also forfeit $105 million, for a total criminal resolution of $1.3 billion."

What this says to me is the government ensured that a drug company is not allowed to defraud the public with a drug that hasn't been appropriately approved by the FDA for use beyond what it was approved for, and the FDA would not approve a drug when safety concerns existed.

 

[GoldenGate]

This guy makes some very good points.

"I am a 27 year military veteran of both the Air Force and Army, a board certified emergency physician and employee of a Big Hospital system. I am a graduate of a Big 10 University School of Medicine and completed my residency at a prestigious institution

I am not anti vaccine. I am anti vaccine mandate, particularly in the case of the novel mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna. As with all of you, I watched in horror from my position at a big hospital in February 2020 as COVID-19 ravaged Italy. The virus was spreading globally, nothing seemed to stop it, and thousands were dying with no effective treatment to be found. It was truly a nightmare scenario.

Physicians and scientists were collaborating globally using Facebook and Twitter to speed the spread of new information and ideas around the world within minutes. Major scientific journals expedited the release and publication of COVID related articles and made them free to access. It was amazing. This was going to be a global triumph. But then politics joined the fray. And when politics and science mix, science loses. What the government scientists spoke was the truth, everything else was labelled misinformation and banned.

For centuries the scientific method invited questions, invited curiosity. Stupid questions and fringe ideas overturned scientific dogma throughout history. It is how we advance science. We question results, question truth, keep experimenting. But when politics and science mix, science loses. Fringe ideas such as a heliocentric solar system get Copernicus and Galileo thrown out of the church. Offering an alternative treatment to COVID, or questioning the effectiveness of masks gets you banned from Facebook and YouTube.

The family of coronaviruses is fairly common. It along with rhinovirus, adenovirus and enterovirus typically cause symptoms of the common cold. A vaccine which can tackle some or all of these viruses would be a windfall for any pharmaceutical company. Cure for the common cold. But the cure does not exist. Prior to 2020, we have never successfully made a vaccine against the coronavirus. Prior to 2020, we have also never made a vaccine using the mRNA technology. But, within months of isolating SARS COV-2, we not only have a vaccine against a coronavirus, but one using mRNA technology, AND near simultaneous release by several companies globally."

Someone has jumped the shark. "This guy" is not exactly a reputable source.

 

[watfly]

Continued...


"The Big Hospital policy cites acceptance of the vaccine by the American College of Gynecologists and Obstetricians (ACOG). Give the vaccine to pregnant women. Really? Where is the caution here? Most medications, common medications prescribed frequently to pregnant women, reglan, zofran, phenergran, tylenol, carry the warning on the package insert that they are not well studied in pregnancy, and use is cautioned. We use them because there are decades of use that show them to be probably safe, but still counsel patients before prescribing. The vaccine? Just give it! It is safe! Despite the fact that it is not possible to have a cohort of newborns large enough to show detrimental effect. Disgraceful. What possible reason is there for the rush? When politics and science mix, science loses

It may turn out that the Pfizer vaccine was key in our victory over COVID. This may also be a dark time for science and medicine where we allowed our process to be subverted by politics, and patients lost.

In medicine we talk about informed decision making. The old, paternalistic, directive medicine is in the past. We involve patients in their care, inform them, allow them to make the decisions, right or wrong. Politics mixed with science, science has lost and we have now returned to the paternalistic directive medicine of “vaccinate or else”."

The vaccine mandates are done out of a combination of fear and arrogance. I can see a good faith basis for mandates for health care and the military, but you have to allow natural immunity from prior infection as an option, since we all know, but some choose to ignore, that this immunity is significantly stronger than vaccinated immunity. We also have recognize that while the vaccines are an incredible medical breakthrough, we don't know the long term implications, if any. I believe that vaccines are primarily safe, but based on my own family's experience, they can have troubling side effects, which I hope are only temporary, but as of yet has not been proven so.

Part of the problem is that the fearful and arrogant are intolerant of nuance. If you question anything about the vaccine you're labeled an anti-vaxxer and must be insulted and/or silenced.

 

[GoldenGate]

Continued.


"And speaking about long term effects, are we seeing any now? Long term effects are just that. They happen months or years later. This is why a new drug takes years to come to market. The FDA graveyard is littered with medications which made it through the approval process, only to be recalled due to an unforeseen long term consequence. Try to buy Zantac, a once popular OTC antacid, at CVS. It was just recalled because an impurity causes cancer. Didn’t see that coming. Vioxx, thalidomide, fen-phen… oops.

What are the long term effects of the mRNA vaccine? Who knows. There is early evidence of decreased numbers of an immune cell called CD-8 T cells immediately following vaccination. These cells are part of the early surveillance team which seeks out and destroys cells infected with viruses or are abnormally growing cancerous cells. Dr. Ryan Cole, a pathologist and immunologist in Idaho has noticed an increase in invasive melanomas, endometrial cancer, and cervical dysplasia as well as common viral infections such as molluscum, HPV and HSV. These are typically conditions a healthy immune system with functioning CD-8 cells would knock out before you even knew about it. But in post vaccinated people, these infections and cancer are quickly becoming more common. Suppressed T cells are not there to stop it. This is anecdote, not a published study, but this is the kind of thing that spurs questions in a healthy scientific community. We consider the issue, study it find the data, prove the hypothesis. But in today’s world, Dr. Cole is labelled a kook, ostracized, videos deleted from YouTube for spreading misinformation. Questioning the dogma.

There is also a study published in the UK which identifies antibody dependent enhancement facilitating infection with Delta. Antibody dependent enhancement is a case where the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta strain into your cells. Instead of making it less likely you will get sick, it makes you more likely. This may explain the Israeli data. This is actual data, published by the British Infection Association. There are long term consequences out there, we just haven’t taken the time necessary to find them."

Oh and Dr. Cole is a kook, which means "this guy" is also. Dr. Cole, despite being a pathologist, claims to be a horse paste expert and believes we should all be eating it to fight Covid, but that we should not use vaccines because there hasn't been enough research to ensure they are safe. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/v...ess-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/

Where did you get this drivel? Can any of you anti-vaxxers explain why you believe horse paste is perfectly acceptable to take, but not a vaccine? Maybe the highly rational crush guy can explain this to the rest of us.

 

[Roadrunner]

There is also a study published in the UK which identifies antibody dependent enhancement facilitating infection with Delta. Antibody dependent enhancement is a case where the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta strain into your cells. Instead of making it less likely you will get sick, it makes you more likely. This may explain the Israeli data. This is actual data, published by the British Infection Association. There are long term consequences out there, we just haven’t taken the time necessary to find them."

"This guy" clearly has an anti-vax agenda. The above section is an example where he's mixing nuggets of real things together to come up with a brand new stew that is misleading. Antibody dependent enhancement is a mechanism where for some viruses, certain antibodies can facilitate entry into certain cells such as macrophages. Maybe you've heard of this with Dengue and Zika? In any case, for SARS-CoV2 there just is not data to support the hypothesis that the virus more easily infects people with antibodies against the virus. Quite the contrary. And the Israeli study he's citing here actually shows the power of immunity against infection, so it goes completely against the supposed point he's attempting to make.

 

[Roadrunner]

Part of the problem is that the fearful and arrogant are intolerant of nuance. If you question anything about the vaccine you're labeled an anti-vaxxer and must be insulted and/or silenced.

I agree that there is a lot of intolerance in our society today. Some are stoking the fears for their own agenda, I presume. In any case, it makes it difficult to have rational, reasoned discussion on solutions when people aren't open to listening. Maybe part of it is that we're uncomfortable with uncertainty. Maybe another part is that it can be difficult to sift through troves of information to figure out what or who is reliable.

 

[dad4]

Ignore this if you don't like facts.

Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History

American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together “Pfizer”) have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from...

www.justice.gov

I didn’t know you were such a fierce opponent of off label drug use and marketing.

Guess you also have some sharp words for the people promoting ivermectin….

 

[espola]

Someone has jumped the shark. "This guy" is not exactly a reputable source.

It's not just "this guy". DH has a history of posting nonsense here. This article, in fact, would be better received here if DH had created a new sockpuppet (or, if he has one already, used that) since it would not have to overcome the baggage of DH's posting history.

 

[what-happened]

Oh and Dr. Cole is a kook, which means "this guy" is also. Dr. Cole, despite being a pathologist, claims to be a horse paste expert and believes we should all be eating it to fight Covid, but that we should not use vaccines because there hasn't been enough research to ensure they are safe. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/v...ess-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/

Where did you get this drivel? Can any of you anti-vaxxers explain why you believe horse paste is perfectly acceptable to take, but not a vaccine? Maybe the highly rational crush guy can explain this to the rest of us.

what is horse paste?

 

[what-happened]

I agree that there is a lot of intolerance in our society today. Some are stoking the fears for their own agenda, I presume. In any case, it makes it difficult to have rational, reasoned discussion on solutions when people aren't open to listening. Maybe part of it is that we're uncomfortable with uncertainty. Maybe another part is that it can be difficult to sift through troves of information to figure out what or who is reliable.

I would add in intentional misinformation by peopel with agendas on both sides of the argument. Frustrates the medical community trying to treat their patients in the trenches.

 

[watfly]

Maybe another part is that it can be difficult to sift through troves of information to figure out what or who is reliable.

I think in some ways this is the biggest issue. You get different opinions from different "experts", but even worse you get different opinions from the same "expert". I appreciate that science changes over time, but the pace at which it is changing (and oftentimes in direct contradiction to previous "settled" science) raises significant skepticism, and rightly so.

I understand the concept of erring on the side of caution, but when you only focus on the one issue at hand and ignore, or obfuscate, the costs to other issues, that's not effective public health policy. When you mandate only one approach to a problem, when there are others, you lose credibility.

 

[Desert Hound]

Someone has jumped the shark. "This guy" is not exactly a reputable source.

What point do you find off the mark?

His main point is we don't know what the long term affects of the vaccines are and as such they should not be mandated on people with little to no risk.

That is an entirely reasonable approach.

For those in the very high risk category he advocates them using the vaccine since the benefits outweigh long term risks.

Another entirely reasonable approach.

What part do you find objectionable?

 

[Soccermaverick]

On Twitter… My 12-year-old had appendicitis. The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated Covid patients and we had to wait 6+ hours. While waiting, his appendix ruptured and had to spend 5 days in hospital; just got hmo bill of $5000. So yeah, your decision to not vaccinate does affect others.

Sounds like not getting vaccinated is causing others pain. But the antiVax will say he didn’t die did he

 

[Kicker4Life]

On Twitter… My 12-year-old had appendicitis. The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated Covid patients and we had to wait 6+ hours. While waiting, his appendix ruptured and had to spend 5 days in hospital; just got hmo bill of $5000. So yeah, your decision to not vaccinate does affect others.

Sounds like not getting vaccinated is causing others pain. But the antiVax will say he didn’t die did he

Twitter is a great source for information. Not saying it isn’t true, but there are some questionable details in that story. First, how did the poster know they where unvax’d, was it by their scarlet letter?

 

[Bruddah IZ]

DeSantis roasted by Miami paper --

https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article253954748.html

Zzzzzzzzz

 

[Soccermaverick]

J

Twitter is a great source for information. Not saying it isn’t true, but there are some questionable details in that story. First, how did the poster know they where unvax’d, was it by their scarlet letter?

Just like this site.. your point.. doesn’t negate the truth of hospitals being overwhelmed