Vaccine

[kickingandscreaming]

Actually Grace, there's data on masks that supports their ability to reduce transmission of viruses too. It's definitely more complicated, as many on this forum have discussed. (And yes, I have put a n95 respirator on an 8 year old, and expected them to wear it for the duration of a long day of travel through crowded airports in areas with high delta transmission.)

I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks. Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.

Hahaha! What a troll. This post reeks of EOTL spawn. So, RR, where does your child play soccer? You just got on here August 4th, right? And you are everywhere. That's quite a start for a newbie. I remember the parent of a trans child finding our conversation in depths of "Off Topic 2" to speak of the trials of their child. The sad thing is, these are perfectly worthy conversations to have but your Jason Blair approach is pathetic.

 

[espola]

Your usual idiotic contribution, I see. Keep trolling.

Did you read the article yet?

 

[Grace T.]

Actually Grace, there's data on masks that supports their ability to reduce transmission of viruses too. It's definitely more complicated, as many on this forum have discussed. (And yes, I have put a n95 respirator on an 8 year old, and expected them to wear it for the duration of a long day of travel through crowded airports in areas with high delta transmission.)

I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks. Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.

The review section is interesting and comprehensive, but I note it says the same thing I've been saying: cloth masks are less protective and are potentially susceptible if they are washed, particularly if not in a hospital quality laundry.

The rest of it is just advocacy lacking in any real data. Their argument is basically the benefits outweigh the costs (which to their credit they acknowledge, but proceed to dismiss as not very burdensome). There's also nothing that addresses the real life concerns, particularly against the delta....anything that doesn't address what's happening in Israel and Iceland, despite vaccine mandates and mask mandates, isn't a comprehensive review. That's always been the big question: why if masks work don't we see a substantial impact in the curves once mask mandates go into effect.

To their credit , they criticize the oversell of masks. But they don't address the issue now that there's widespread vaccination, why mask? Why do we care about cases? The reality with masking is we are at a point where we need to discuss the pros and cons....cloth masking is just security theatre....either we are going to mandate n95s and surgical pluses, or let's get off of it and move on now that everyone that wants one is vaccinated. The other thing that the pro maskers need to articulate at this point is what's the rational: hospital collapse??? If so it's a tool that should be utilized strictly in those cases where hospital collapse is a threat.

Basically the section on masks devolves into an argument yes we don't know the scope or efficacy, but the costs (which they dismiss) are so low, why not be cautious.

 

[Grace T.]

Did you read the article yet?

Idiot. Yes, see above. You really are the biggest of moronic trolls.

 

[Grace T.]

I wonder if funding and pressure from Gov agencies do the same thing? Trick question.

Survey: 1 in 5 medical researchers reports pressure from funders to change study results - UPI.com

Nearly one in five public health researchers feels pressured by study funders to delay reporting or change findings, a survey published Wednesday by PLOS One found.

www.upi.com

The buzz is that people in the field are very reluctant to criticize Fauci and Co....going along advances their career....being a contrarian is not a good look for future advancement.

 

[crush]

Hahaha! What a troll. This post reeks of EOTL spawn. So, RR, where does your child play soccer? You just got on here August 4th, right? And you are everywhere. That's quite a start for a newbie. I remember the parent of a trans child finding our conversation in depths of "Off Topic 2" to speak of the trials of their child. The sad thing is, these are perfectly worthy conversations to have but your Jason Blair approach is pathetic.

Hahahaha

 

[espola]

The buzz is that people in the field are very reluctant to criticize Fauci and Co....going along advances their career....being a contrarian is not a good look for future advancement.

Only in your imagination --

“He who pays the piper calls the tune”: Researcher experiences of funder suppression of health behaviour intervention trial findings

Background Governments commonly fund research with specific applications in mind. Such mechanisms may facilitate ‘research translation’ but funders may employ strategies that can also undermine the integrity of both science and government. We estimated the prevalence and investigated correlates...

journals.plos.org

 

[watfly]

I like the discussion in the review I'm attaching here, and not just their section on masks vs no masks. Things are not just black and white, there's lots of gray and complexities.

Yet, the article boils everything down to 6 grossly oversimplified "dichotomies". You don't find that incredibly ironic? For example it's not "health-lives vs economy-livelihoods" its "covid health vs other health conditions, mental health, education, economy, livelihoods, social well-being etc." We've isolated one issue above everything else. These aren't 1v1 issues, these are 1v1,000's of issues.

I appreciate you providing this, there is some thoughtful questions and good information. The problem is there is just a ton of conflicting information out there, much of which pretends you can isolate cause and effect to a single variable. You can't, life doesn't exist in a lab.

The other problem is the pace at which information is changing. Pre-pandemic X was true, and had been true for a very long time. That X has now changed 5 times in the last 18 months. I appreciate that X can change as more information becomes available, but you can't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon every time X changes. A reasonable person is going to say "hey, wait a second....".

I also find this statement incredibly arrogant:
Public health experts, economists, social scientists, and bioethicists must work jointly to assist governments in shaping the best policies that protect
the overall societal well-being.

These are ivory tower, 10,000 foot view people. I want people on the ground floor and front lines giving input. People that deal with issues in real life on a day to day basis. Not some lab or university classroom hermit deciding what's best for me and my neighbors.

I appreciate that the pandemic is unprecedented, but pre-pandemic if you had sent your kid to school and out in public with a N95 mask for the entirety of the flu season, you would be getting reported to CPS by someone, likely a teacher, and rightly so. That's fucked up that this behavior is perfectly acceptable now given the negligible risk to children and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults.

 

[espola]

I appreciate that the pandemic is unprecedented, but pre-pandemic if you had sent your kid to school and out in public with a N95 mask for the entirety of the flu season, you would be getting reported to CPS by someone, likely a teacher, and rightly so.

Speculation.

 

[watfly]

Speculation.

Nope, because if I had seen it I would have reported it. My first thought would have been Munchausen.

 

[espola]

Nope, because if I had seen it I would have reported it. My first thought would have been Munchausen.

You didn't see it, and you didn't take the action, so, by definition, you're speculating.

 

[espola]

Yet, the article boils everything down to 6 grossly oversimplified "dichotomies". You don't find that incredibly ironic? For example it's not "health-lives vs economy-livelihoods" its "covid health vs other health conditions, mental health, education, economy, livelihoods, social well-being etc." We've isolated one issue above everything else. These aren't 1v1 issues, these are 1v1,000's of issues.

I appreciate you providing this, there is some thoughtful questions and good information. The problem is there is just a ton of conflicting information out there, much of which pretends you can isolate cause and effect to a single variable. You can't, life doesn't exist in a lab.

The other problem is the pace at which information is changing. Pre-pandemic X was true, and had been true for a very long time. That X has now changed 5 times in the last 18 months. I appreciate that X can change as more information becomes available, but you can't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon every time X changes. A reasonable person is going to say "hey, wait a second....".

I also find this statement incredibly arrogant:
Public health experts, economists, social scientists, and bioethicists must work jointly to assist governments in shaping the best policies that protect
the overall societal well-being.

These are ivory tower, 10,000 foot view people. I want people on the ground floor and front lines giving input. People that deal with issues in real life on a day to day basis. Not some lab or university classroom hermit deciding what's best for me and my neighbors.

I appreciate that the pandemic is unprecedented, but pre-pandemic if you had sent your kid to school and out in public with a N95 mask for the entirety of the flu season, you would be getting reported to CPS by someone, likely a teacher, and rightly so. That's fucked up that this behavior is perfectly acceptable now given the negligible risk to children and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults.

Maintenance Page - Her Lawyer

herlawyer.com

Maintenance Page - Her Lawyer

herlawyer.com

 

[crush]

That's fucked up that this behavior is perfectly acceptable now given the negligible risk to children and its not the children's responsibility to protect adults.

Let it out bro. Were dealing with "no heart Tin Man" and not just one. Tin Man does not care for kids.

 

[watfly]

You didn't see it, and you didn't take the action, so, by definition, you're speculating.

It's always entertaining to see what you pick up on. Usually it's predictable but I appreciate the nuggets you come up with on occasion.

 

[espola]

It's always entertaining to see what you pick up on. Usually it's predictable but I appreciate the nuggets you come up with on occasion.

Actually, it was the "likely a teacher" phrase that caught my attention, but that's not the direction you went in.

 

[espola]

Only in your imagination --

“He who pays the piper calls the tune”: Researcher experiences of funder suppression of health behaviour intervention trial findings

Background Governments commonly fund research with specific applications in mind. Such mechanisms may facilitate ‘research translation’ but funders may employ strategies that can also undermine the integrity of both science and government. We estimated the prevalence and investigated correlates...

journals.plos.org

Snarky title, leading questions, and published on a website where anything that meets the formatting guidelines (has to look sciencey) can get published for a fee.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Why talk Utah? Six months ago, you wanted to talk about Florida, Texas, and California.

Let’s talk about those fine places. How are they doing right about now?

Florida? 6.4 daily covid deaths per million.

Texas? 3.4 daily covid deaths per million.

California? 1.0 daily covid deaths per million.

Yeah, California is really messed up. Almost 1/6 as bad as Florida.

(Our problems are mostly socal. I blame LA.)

In Florida, local officials, stymied by Governor DeSantis, are desperate for something that might make them look important. They're obviously hoping that mask-wearing, including in schools, can be implemented fast enough to take the credit for the obviously inevitable decline in Florida's numbers.

The problem for this scheme is that it looks like the death numbers are coming down already (and yes, that modest hump on the right-hand side of the graph is what had the lunatics screaming "DeathSantis" in recent weeks; they were basing their screeching on high but meaningless "case" numbers):

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Now on the other hand, deaths in Germany appear to have come down after the introduction of a medical-grade mask mandate, so it's tempting to say, well, score one for the mask people.

But wait a minute.

There's a nearby country, with virtually no masking of any kind, medical-grade or otherwise, showing exactly the same trend at the same time:

 

[Roadrunner]

Hahaha! What a troll. This post reeks of EOTL spawn. So, RR, where does your child play soccer?

I'm on here because my DS is interested to playing soccer in college. He's in a socal club. Obviously, I'm reading other threads to try to see if anyone has useful information.

 

[Roadrunner]

I appreciate you providing this, there is some thoughtful questions and good information. The problem is there is just a ton of conflicting information out there, much of which pretends you can isolate cause and effect to a single variable. You can't, life doesn't exist in a lab.

The other problem is the pace at which information is changing. Pre-pandemic X was true, and had been true for a very long time. That X has now changed 5 times in the last 18 months. I appreciate that X can change as more information becomes available, but you can't expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon every time X changes. A reasonable person is going to say "hey, wait a second....".


I agree completely.

The pace of knowledge has been impressive, and yes, full of studies of varying quality with conflicting information. There's still much unknown and unknowable - and that's uncomfortable. The bad actors deliberately spreading streams of disinformation and misinformation don't help either. Anyone who has to be setting policies or just trying to make decisions for their family is likely to feel frustrated. And when the policies don't seem to be aligned with accurate information, it is also frustrating.