Vaccine

Grace T. said:
We haven’t eliminated polio which: a. The vaccine has been around forever and there’s enough for the world, b. Is relatively more stable and structurally less complex, c. Is not respiratory, and d. Doesn’t have a large zoonotic host reservoir while covid is in bats, various cats, ferrets, mink, some monkeys, apes and now possibly dogs and some reports of even rats (if it crosses to rats “a bat without wings” we ain’t ever getting rid of it).
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We've only eliminated smallpox, because of the vaccine. My point was that we/humanity should have been able to also eliminate polio, but, despite having great tools, we haven't. Yes, there should be plenty of polio vaccine for the world, but the point is that not everyone is vaccinated. Just as there are people on this forum who do not want the sars-cov2 vaccine, one contributing factor for the continued presence of polio is that there are people who chose not to get the polio vaccine. Outbreaks of polio do still happen in these unvaccinated populations.

Personally, I would prefer it if people had an attitude that they wanted to try to contain infectious viruses rather than take the approach that since we won't completely get rid of it, let's not bother trying. Maybe telling oneself the problem is too big or the solutions are imperfect is just one way to feel ok about rationalizing a choice not to try.
 
Roadrunner said:
We've only eliminated smallpox, because of the vaccine. My point was that we/humanity should have been able to also eliminate polio, but, despite having great tools, we haven't. Yes, there should be plenty of polio vaccine for the world, but the point is that not everyone is vaccinated. Just as there are people on this forum who do not want the sars-cov2 vaccine, one contributing factor for the continued presence of polio is that there are people who chose not to get the polio vaccine. Outbreaks of polio do still happen in these unvaccinated populations.

Personally, I would prefer it if people had an attitude that they wanted to try to contain infectious viruses rather than take the approach that since we won't completely get rid of it, let's not bother trying. Maybe telling oneself the problem is too big or the solutions are imperfect is just one way to feel ok about rationalizing a choice not to try.
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No it’s a way of looking at the reality of the situation and making realistic policy decisions and choices instead of just wishing and hoping something comes true. It’s facts v feelings. It’s making policy in the assumption people are varied (angels and devils) instead of just angels. It’s being an adult and having an adult perspective v looking at this like a child would. Looking at policy idealistically has been responsible for some of the worst mistakes nations have made because things don’t always work that way: the Crusades, the French Revolution, the Soviet revolution, prohibition, the Vietnam war, or the fall of Afghanistan. History is littered with the ruins of this type of thinking, which has tended to work only in high money spending, victimless situations: “we choose to go to the moon and do these things”. For those on the left here’s another one that will wind up in the dust heap of bad progressive ideas (which is an endless source of these types of bad thinking): the entire recall process or (if you like pork in California) the direct initiative progressive reforms.

btw smallpox is the same: highly stable with no zoonotic source which is not this. And btw the entire “let’s try” approach would be premised on this having been man made in a lab without a zoonotic origin.
 
To The Obvious One: From Captain Obvious.
Personally, I would prefer people to not live in fear 24/7. The fact is were all dying. I have never seen so many freaked out and scared people. LeBron had two mask on yesterday in Vegas. The flu never left us and guess what folks, it ain't going away either. Take the flu shot and you will get the flu. Take the jabs and you get "Spike" with all sorts of mixes and causing people to get sicker and some are dying. Nurses are starting to come out with the truth folks. Dont you dare let them say the only one's dying and going to ER with blood clots and heart issues are the non-vax. DR. F 100% injected pooches with poison. The pooch was then killed and then used their sweet little organ and tissue to make vaccines. Not saying the stuff you all are taking today is this type of experiment. However, it is an experiment and you and everyone else WHO take and will continue to take jab are the subjects. The animals they used before humans are now dead. The scientist already was using human baby parts, bat shit and rat body parts. I dont know what Spike is truly made of but the one's WHO already got two jabs and preach like you Roadrunner can;t wait for round #3 and all the other shots. This stuff goes right into your blood and then into your brain and heart. You guys are 100% sold out, hooked, addicted, committed and their is no way I or anyone can change your mind. I think most folks seem to think that a healthy family like my family would get a "choice" to say, "ya or nay." That's the big rub. Plus being called a terrorist, drunk driver and a Schmuck is red line for me. No jab, no job is a double red line. Do you think I will bend over, roll up my sleeve for the team and then kneel in submission? Watch Outlander bro. I will never and I mean never allow another Randall to roam free to rape and kill everyone. Plus tax the shit out of everybody. This is the final war. I play this Braveheart stuff all the time to fire me up. I'm Scottish Highlander Kirk ready to deal with Elitism once and for all. I'm hated, labelled and now have no way to buy & sell all because I won't submit to an experiment. WTFDUTUR? You folks HATE me and others like me because you think we support t or some of things t supports like eradicating human trafficking and killing babies. No jab, no freedom and try and survive is one way to go for freedom or take as many jabs as we say and STFU is the other choice of freedom. Two freedoms to choose and that is it. George Soros sold out all his neighbors & friends from school when he was 14 and called himself a Christian to hide from the cops. That is one faith I would not do that with, moo! The truth was his parents were Elitist snobs and they wanted to make even more money on the war. The fact was little Jorge was a known atheist and sell out. Dude smiles when people suffer and he only cares about money and not social parts of life. He, Bill, Klaus, Rock family, Rot family, The Arnold, all the other families and probably Lucifer himself all get together each week to see how they can get us humans to fight each other. You guys have been assholes since 2016 when HRC lost. You see, I hate the things you stand for. Killing 80,000,000 babies that we know of is insane. I know it's way more than that. Plus all the other shit!! I swear, you types will never change. Talk about all in. I was hoping people like you, Husker poorespola, EOTL, Messy and the rest would show more kindness but nope, you're all the same Tin Man with no heart. I guess we can't live together. One side is scared and full of fear and getting more scared each day. I would like some time to move away from you folks and make a peaceful deal for some land.
 
I told everyone three years ago that the Elitist own us & soccer. I have good friends who love being owned. They think they retire in happiness. It's the biggest lie ever. It's time to change the earth you guys unless you like being controlled by the Elitist who make money in war and more war. They create division through brainwashing and lies and then cause war. Look at the Middle East. 20 years of war. I have really good friends who sacrificed their time with their family to help others and now look at the mess. It's not to late to pick real freedom you guys and freedom should be free :)



 
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I'm going to go pray, sing and meditate on how I can help bring peace in a very troubled world of total control freaks. I sure in the hell dont want to go looking for trouble with them Proud Boys and Antifa. I say let's get a PPV set up and let these folks battle it out with skate boards, water coolers, helmets and their fist. These people are angry, like past 6 on a scale of 0-10. My wife is a 0-1. I can get to a 6 but rarely. These people want a war and most of the people I know want peace. I will use my mouth instead from the comfort of my place. I feel safe. My neighbors are all super cool. Vax or no vax, mask or no mask, we love each other and that makes me feel safe :) Peace out Roadrunner, I'll catch you later dude....lol!
 
Grace T. said:
And btw the entire “let’s try” approach would be premised on this having been man made in a lab without a zoonotic origin.
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Grace I don't follow your logic. Obviously some viruses will be easier, relatively speaking, than others to eradicate or to control for a large variety of reasons. Why would we pick and choose which viruses (or other problems) to try to contain based on what might be the source for the start of an outbreak (or epidemic or pandemic)? This just doesn't make sense. (In the case of some cancers knowing the origin/genetic changes can help design interventions.) To step outside medicine, if my house is on fire, I don't stop to investigate whether arson is the cause before I try to put the fire out as quickly as possible.

I do agree that individuals feelings and experiences certainly shape their choices and responses to situations. The fact is that SARS-CoV2 is a real virus that is not benign at all for many people. It is what it is and it doesn't care how anyone feels, and it will happily infect anyone with its receptors. Ideally we could work together to use all available tools to contain outbreaks/epidemics/pandemics.
 
crush said:
View attachment 11405

I'm going to go pray, sing and meditate on how I can help bring peace in a very troubled world of total control freaks. I sure in the hell dont want to go looking for trouble with them Proud Boys and Antifa. I say let's get a PPV set up and let these folks battle it out with skate boards, water coolers, helmets and their fist. These people are angry, like past 6 on a scale of 0-10. My wife is a 0-1. I can get to a 6 but rarely. These people want a war and most of the people I know want peace. I will use my mouth instead from the comfort of my place. I feel safe. My neighbors are all super cool. Vax or no vax, mask or no mask, we love each other and that makes me feel safe :) Peace out Roadrunner, I'll catch you later dude....lol!
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These cartoons are fun. We used to have a roadrunner at our house, along with the coyotes so I kept expecting an Acme shipment to show up. Maybe Acme was bought out by Amazon...
 
Grace T. said:
No it’s a way of looking at the reality of the situation and making realistic policy decisions and choices instead of just wishing and hoping something comes true. It’s facts v feelings. It’s making policy in the assumption people are varied (angels and devils) instead of just angels. It’s being an adult and having an adult perspective v looking at this like a child would. Looking at policy idealistically has been responsible for some of the worst mistakes nations have made because things don’t always work that way: the Crusades, the French Revolution, the Soviet revolution, prohibition, the Vietnam war, or the fall of Afghanistan. History is littered with the ruins of this type of thinking, which has tended to work only in high money spending, victimless situations: “we choose to go to the moon and do these things”. For those on the left here’s another one that will wind up in the dust heap of bad progressive ideas (which is an endless source of these types of bad thinking): the entire recall processor (if you like pork in California) the direct initiative progressive reforms.
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"Idealistically" is a word that gives too much credit for the thought process you describe. It's righteous zealotry. I am so "right" that others need to be forced to do things my way if they don't do it voluntarily. As your examples show, human history is littered with it.
 
Desert Hound said:
www.thecollegefix.com

Most vaccine-hesitant group is those with PhDs, research shows | The College Fix

Most skeptical and least likely to change their minds, findings reveal.
www.thecollegefix.com www.thecollegefix.com
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If you look at the actual study Chart B, the differences in vaccine hesitancy depending on levels of education seem to be split into two intertwined clusters: High School or Less, Some College, and PhD in one group, and Four-Year College Degree, Master's, and Professional Degree in the other, with the first group about twice as hesitant as the second. The term "Professional Degree" includes medical professionals (doctors, nurses, dentists, veterinarians, and the like), lawyers, and licensed engineers.

A more stark division can be seen in Chart D, which shows the vaccine hesitance rate divided according to the proportion of t support in the last election in the county in which the respondents lived. To put it simply, the higher the local t support, the freedumber they are.

 
Roadrunner said:
Grace I don't follow your logic. Obviously some viruses will be easier, relatively speaking, than others to eradicate or to control for a large variety of reasons. Why would we pick and choose which viruses (or other problems) to try to contain based on what might be the source for the start of an outbreak (or epidemic or pandemic)? This just doesn't make sense. (In the case of some cancers knowing the origin/genetic changes can help design interventions.) To step outside medicine, if my house is on fire, I don't stop to investigate whether arson is the cause before I try to put the fire out as quickly as possible.

I do agree that individuals feelings and experiences certainly shape their choices and responses to situations. The fact is that SARS-CoV2 is a real virus that is not benign at all for many people. It is what it is and it doesn't care how anyone feels, and it will happily infect anyone with its receptors. Ideally we could work together to use all available tools to contain outbreaks/epidemics/pandemics.
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Just because you have tools doesn’t mean you use them. Part of using reason instead of emotions is you have to do a cost benefit analysis of any npi or policy. The issue with the health experts in this pandemic is they only looked at the benefit (saving lives/reducing infections) but not the cost (economic, societal, psychological, educational). The issue is they weren’t experts in this too and weren’t capable of doing the c b. When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail.
 
dad4 said:
74 cases on the island- not 74 cases at the party. contact tracing data are not available yet, so we cant say how many are from the party. We find out Monday or Tuesday. Some, but not all, of the cases will end up linked to Obama’s party, or people who travelled for the party.

I dont care about the weed. But holding that size of event was incredibly selfish.
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Hauoli Lahanau braddah Barry!!
 
crush said:
Who gets blamed for the super spreader? I dont see it as selfish at all. I see it as being forth coming and up front and honest about the truth. The fact is Dad, nothing to be alarmed by. They had no mask because no mask was needed, MOO!
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Dad is just selfish.
 
Roadrunner said:
Alas, polio has not been eradicated. While medicine has come a long way and great vaccines against polio have existed for a while, cases do still arise in various places around the world. Politics, access, and mistrust of either vaccines or those giving the vaccines are all issues that have prevented the world from reaching the eradication goal. The history of polio vaccines is interesting, and includes a connection to soccer. https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...n-story-jeff-hall-death-polio-birmingham-city


(This virus is not respiratory, but rather a GI tract virus. This means the mode of transmission is different from respiratory viruses It is in the picornavirus family, and has a small single stranded RNA genome, which is covered only by a protein shell.)
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The U.S. has been polio free since 1979. Mostly because we got our shit together, literally. Proper sanitation and clean drinking water works wonders.
 
Bruddah IZ said:
The U.S. has been polio free since 1979. Mostly because we got our shit together, literally. Proper sanitation and clean drinking water works wonders.
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Yes definitely, shit matters -especially for viruses with fecal-oral transmission. I was talking about worldwide eradication, not just the US. After 1979 the few cases in the US either from the oral vaccine or were caught traveling abroad. It still should be an attainable goal. We're close, but not there. In 2019 the CDC data cite 369 children paralyzed from outbreaks. No cure.
 
Grace T. said:
Just because you have tools doesn’t mean you use them. Part of using reason instead of emotions is you have to do a cost benefit analysis of any npi or policy. The issue with the health experts in this pandemic is they only looked at the benefit (saving lives/reducing infections) but not the cost (economic, societal, psychological, educational). The issue is they weren’t experts in this too and weren’t capable of doing the c b. When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail.
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True, a lot of people choose not to use available tools, are not able to use tools, or misapply them. There are of course situations where you pick and choose the best tools to use. But that is different from the argument of not even trying to develop or use any tools to contain a virus, or making that decision based on a virus origin.

There are some interesting studies on how people assess risk / benefits. That's not my area of expertise. Maybe if I stay at a Holiday inn express, ..... Haha.
 
Roadrunner said:
True, a lot of people choose not to use available tools, are not able to use tools, or misapply them. There are of course situations where you pick and choose the best tools to use. But that is different from the argument of not even trying to develop or use any tools to contain a virus, or making that decision based on a virus origin.

There are some interesting studies on how people assess risk / benefits. That's not my area of expertise. Maybe if I stay at a Holiday inn express, ..... Haha.
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If medical experts are going to be making these decisions, they should be extremely well versed in how to make risk benefit calculations or they should not be allowed to make the final decision and should merely input the information for someone who is qualified to do so (that someone might be an actuarial, risk advisor or attorney trained to measure such risk).

im all for putting every tool at our disposal on the table. I believe in vaccines and think one of the great crimes has been the neglect of therapeutics. But if the tool calculation doesn’t make sense it should go off the table. Shutting the schools cost enormous damage to a vulnerable population for very little gain…Europe got it right but we didn’t. Cloth masks might have helped a little at the beginning for little cost (social, injury to small children and special need, environmental). Cloth masks now against the delta, as oster has said, are likely useless yet still have the same cost so time to take them off the table until their utility is shown.
 
Roadrunner said:
Yes definitely, shit matters -especially for viruses with fecal-oral transmission. I was talking about worldwide eradication, not just the US. After 1979 the few cases in the US either from the oral vaccine or were caught traveling abroad. It still should be an attainable goal. We're close, but not there. In 2019 the CDC data cite 369 children paralyzed from outbreaks. No cure.
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Pakistan and Afghanistan I think is where the outbreaks remain.
 
In thoughts so disorganized that they might just have been one of those waking dreams, I had an image of drones flying over crowds using some advanced technology to pick out likely covid victims by sampling and testing their pooled exhalations. It turns out that that would have been looking in the wrong direction.


There is even a nice mention of UC-Merced in that article (private joke with my daughter that would take too long to explain).
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Pakistan and Afghanistan I think is where the outbreaks remain.
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CNN is on the ground reporting startling news at the airpoirt. It looks like people are getting rides on the outside of the planes as they taxi off the runway. I dont have tv. I pray that people are jumping off before it takes off. CNN reporter last night said that at least the Taliban were wearing face coverings to help stop the spread of the Spike virus as they walk around with AK47s.
 
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