UNION!

Kicker4Life said:
Also during that era:
- cigarettes where promoted by Dr’s in commercials
- DR Suess was read in schools
- Asbestos was the preferred insulation

Things change, the world evolves. Unions were vital during that era but today they’ve outlived their relevance in many areas.

You likely know more than I in this area, so change my mind with some of the great things Unions have done for the lower and middle class in the past decade.
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Most of the current push for minimum wage increases come from unions. The same is true of efforts to make the tax code more progressive.

The flip side is that most of the rules that protect violent police officers also came from unions. Chauvin choked at least six other people before he killed Floyd. He should have been fired, and the union rules helped keep him in uniform.
 
dad4 said:
I kind of see unions as a mixed bag.

Good: Most worker safety laws simply would not exist without unions.

Neutral: The 1950s boom would have happened with or without unions.

Bad: The 1970-2010 decline in heavy industry was partly due to unionization. Some of those work rules were awful for the steel and car industries.
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Business has done fabulously well with the production spike organized skilled labor provided. Skilled craftsmen vs transient workers.
 
Kicker4Life said:
Also during that era:
- cigarettes where promoted by Dr’s in commercials
- DR Suess was read in schools
- Asbestos was the preferred insulation

Things change, the world evolves. Unions were vital during that era but today they’ve outlived their relevance in many areas.

You likely know more than I in this area, so change my mind with some of the great things Unions have done for the lower and middle class in the past decade.
Click to expand...
The union influence has been undermined and the federal minimum wage is still at $7.25. That’s what not supporting unions has done. Without unions there would be no industry standards and far more job site fatalities.
 
How about the German model, national labor agreements, national and local unions, works councils (which don't have to be unionized), works council reps can be appointed to the BoD etc.

A highly functioning economy with a large manufacturing base. 4th largest GDP in the world. Workers rights US workers couldn't dream of ...
- universal multi-payer healthcare system
- 4 weeks minimum vacation, although 5 or 6 are common
- 6 weeks sick pay (full) before 78 weeks at 70%
- Pregnancy employment protections
- Parental leave entitlements
- and so on
 
Kicker4Life said:
That’s one person’s opinion.
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Its hardly opinion. The pre-unions and post-unions standards, fatalities, age restrictions, working week, min wage etc. are there to see. If you are suggesting that "industry" would have provided these anyway or was on the way to providing these anyway, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. "Industry" fought, figuratively and literally, unions tooth and nail and still does.
 
whatithink said:
Its hardly opinion. The pre-unions and post-unions standards, fatalities, age restrictions, working week, min wage etc. are there to see. If you are suggesting that "industry" would have provided these anyway or was on the way to providing these anyway, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. "Industry" fought, figuratively and literally, unions tooth and nail and still does.
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No....Unions had their time...that time is not now.
 
whatithink said:
Its hardly opinion. The pre-unions and post-unions standards, fatalities, age restrictions, working week, min wage etc. are there to see. If you are suggesting that "industry" would have provided these anyway or was on the way to providing these anyway, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. "Industry" fought, figuratively and literally, unions tooth and nail and still does.
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Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends. If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends. If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.
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It's all wrong Huskey. Wrong + Wrong= Wrong. Many also died before they were even given a chance to be born and that is not fair either, right? I call balls and strikes and nothing else.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends. If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.
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Many died so todays selfish______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________!!!!!
 
Hüsker Dü said:
en.wikipedia.org

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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You need a more recent example. The triangle fire was 115 years ago.

When I think of unions today, I tend to think of car companies and steel mills driven to bankruptcy. Industry lost overseas because the domestic mills were completely hog-tied by work rules. That, or public employee unions that completely own our local city councils and school boards.

This isn’t to say I trust corporations. I don’t. But you’ll have a hard time convincing me that unfunded pension debt is way forward.
 
dad4 said:
You need a more recent example. The triangle fire was 115 years ago.

When I think of unions today, I tend to think of car companies and steel mills driven to bankruptcy. Industry lost overseas because the domestic mills were completely hog-tied by work rules. That, or public employee unions that completely own our local city councils and school boards.

This isn’t to say I trust corporations. I don’t. But you’ll have a hard time convincing me that unfunded pension debt is way forward.
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If you ignore the past . . .
 
Hüsker Dü said:
If you ignore the past . . .
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Not that simple.

What if I like OSHA but dislike police brutality?

Does that make me pro union, because I want to fully fund OSHA?

Or does it make me anti-union, because I want to unseal the records on past police misconduct?

Unions fought hard for OSHA. But they fought hard to protect bad cops, too.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Many died so todays workers can have decent work conditions and weekends. If left to their devices big industry will have us right back where we were over 100 years ago. Low wages, long hours, child labor (to help pay to feed the family) and dangerous work environments void of health protections. The race back to the bottom would happen quickly.
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Drama much?
 
dad4 said:
Not that simple.

What if I like OSHA but dislike police brutality?

Does that make me pro union, because I want to fully fund OSHA?

Or does it make me anti-union, because I want to unseal the records on past police misconduct?

Unions fought hard for OSHA. But they fought hard to protect bad cops, too.
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In the ironworkers union you either keep a job or you don’t, that is between you and your employer. If you feel you were treated unfairly the union will help, if you are just a slug you are on your own. All unions should be more like that. After 40 years there was no such thing as seniority. My only seniority was my knowledge and my reputation.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
In the ironworkers union you either keep a job or you don’t, that is between you and your employer. If you feel you were treated unfairly the union will help, if you are just a slug you are on your own. All unions should be more like that. After 40 years there was no such thing as seniority. My only seniority was my knowledge and my reputation.
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40 years? Are you Messy? I knew a slug back when Pacific Bell had Yellow Page reps who were all union and he had the easiest job in the world. These YP Ad Books were cash cow for mama bell :) Dude would walk in and tell plumber guy that his ads were going up 25% for next years book. Plumber told him to F off and then yp dude walked out. He said AC Tech and Plumber dude would all call at the last minute and say, "find, keep me in the book." The fact is, no YP ad, no phone calls=Out of business.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
In the ironworkers union you either keep a job or you don’t, that is between you and your employer. If you feel you were treated unfairly the union will help, if you are just a slug you are on your own. All unions should be more like that. After 40 years there was no such thing as seniority. My only seniority was my knowledge and my reputation.
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Public employee unions do not appear to work on the trades model. Seniority is everything.

Why was Derek Chauvin in charge of training other police officers? Chances are, the collective bargaining agreement requires selecting training officers based on seniority. It probably comes with better pay and promotion opportunities.

As a result, older police officers with a reputation for citizen complaints are put in charge of teaching the new police officers. 20 years from now, those new officers will generate their own complaints, because that is how they were taught.
 
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