Two GK teams at older age groups/higher levels

[socalkdg]

Was talking to the DOC last night, who is a big believer in keepers and loves my daughter, and he mentioned an advantage of two keepers that I hadn't thought of. Pregame warmup. The keeper not starting is the perfect partner to get the starter ready for the current game.

Jeff Tackett in his newsletter mentioned the importance of a consistent pregame warmup and my daughter started doing that this past weekend at a tourney in Az. I mentioned to one of the coaches that she needed 15 minutes and that she would let him know what she wanted to do during that time. They did that in the 3 games this weekend.

A few other firsts from this weekend. My daughter started taking free kicks that were outside the 18 all the way up to the center circle. With the wind at her back she also drop kicked a ball about 75 yards took a bounce, went off the keepers hands and gave us a corner kick. Need to work on her accuracy. Lastly we were down 2-0 with little time left and she went into the other teams box to try and score on a throw in. Unfortunately the whistle blew before the throw in. Very funny to see how reluctant she was to go into the box. So nice to play soccer.

 

[Grace T.]

I'm really talking about top tier youth teams and college, where money isn't the driving factor and winning is everything. In the world of professionals, butts in seats is the driving factor. No one watches Man City because of Ederson.

agree but in the us the top tier youth teams are the mls academies. There they have their favorites they’ve id’d early on to give a shot for the first team and the rest that fill out the roster. Since gks have a long life it’s just 1 or 2 across all their age groups. money is the driving factor

for the girls side and college yes I agree

 

[Eagle33]

This has come up on the "Soccer only" thread in the Socal Scene section, but I figured it would make more sense to re-start it as a stand-alone topic in the Goalkeeper section.

If you have high ability/aspirations, the number of teams dwindle as you go up the pyramid and most of the top teams (at least in the boys division) have multiple keepers. Even if your kid is on an elite team as the sole GK, there is less loyalty or roster limitations at the higher levels and they can and will take on a strong GK at any time if they become available. That means you can't easily "choose" to be the only GK and ensure that choice will be respected if you want to be at an elite team or in an elite league.

Given that reality, how does your GK make the best of the situation assuming they are hoping to get recruited for college play? Obviously, you push to become the starter, but coaches may rotate regardless.

From GK individual standpoint as well as GK parent of course he/she wants to be the starting and/or the only keeper. However, in real world it's impossible to have 1 keeper (specially on elite team) from team or coach's standpoint. Ideally, you would have a field player capable to fill-in in case GK is injured, Red carded, etc. and this way you can have the only GK. This player must be capable and willing. If you have this - great, but most elite teams will have 2 or more GK's. Now how they split time and how to keep them happy is up to your coach.
As far as recruiting process (speaking from personal experience), it's important to get on a team with high visibility for college coaches (participating in college showcases, attending ID camps, playing in Elite circuit - DA (in the past), ECNL, CRL, etc.). Communication is The Key to recruiting success. GK must have video available and not just a highlight reel, but combination of skills breakdown - distribution, shot stopping, corner kicks, 1v1, punts/goal kicks, etc.

 

[Mystery Train]

Last year I posted a rant about how poorly club coaches typically handle multiple keeper situations. It's true that at the older levels, particularly the last two years of club, you rarely see top level teams with a single keeper.

My kid was the only keeper for the vast majority of her youth career from U11-U16. Her last two years, U17 & 18, (ECNL) she had to share time, although measured by playing time, she was still the #1. In her last season, there were even 3 keepers on the team. All 3 were excellent, roughly the same level of player, but with different strengths. As it turned out with injuries, ACT tests, etc., the team never had all 3 in uniform for a single game. So for sure, a top level team is always going to strive to have at minimum 2 quality keepers.

My kids' coach did an admirable job keeping them rotating as far as pure minutes goes, but I always wished that he had handled it a little differently. He let them work out an alternating halves schedule, and then every now and then, when his gut told him to make a change in the pre-arranged schedule, he would. In my opinion, a keeper needs to know their role and prepare for it. Instead of rotating and changing up who is the starter and who is the finisher week to week and deciding this just before the game, a keeper needs plenty of advance notice and prep as either the starter or the finisher. Or better yet, designate one for an entire game and alternate games. Because the mental state of mind of a keeper is the most critical psyche on the field to ensure is in the right place, you've got to have lots of prediction and advance notice. If you know you're the #1, or you know for sure that week you're the #2, it allows you to prepare yourself mentally for that role in the best way possible. Several times, her coach adjusted on the fly, usually to the benefit of my daughter's playing time, but every time he did, it kind of wrecked the other keeper and made my daughter have to re-frame her expectations as well. To the coach's credit, his calls in that regard ended up paying off in a win, but it also brought some negatives because it screwed with the chemistry. I'm not sure if that's a big deal in the boys' game, but in the girls' game, team chemistry is HUGE. The biggest factor for success in splitting time is if the keepers get along. If they don't, it will suck. If they do, they can be a support system for each other.

As others have said here, the way a defense reacts to a particular keeper is an important and, IHMO, the most underrated quality of a keeper. Warning, brag ahead... My DD's defense always played better with her in the pipes during those two years of splitting time. The other keepers could do some things athletically that mine couldn't, and always looked more amazing in warm ups. But the team's record with each in goal spoke for itself. Luckily for my kid, our coach recognized that and when it came to crunch time, usually gave her the call.

Interestingly, I found that splitting time did not really affect the recruitment of any of the team's keepers very much. There were a couple of times in showcases where a coach recruiting one of them showed up for the wrong half, but other than that, all three got exactly the kind of looks they needed to get recruited. Ultimately, they all ended up where they were meant to be and were better for the experience of sharing time and learning how to navigate the ups and downs together.

 

[momofgk]

Last year I posted a rant about how poorly club coaches typically handle multiple keeper situations. It's true that at the older levels, particularly the last two years of club, you rarely see top level teams with a single keeper.

My kid was the only keeper for the vast majority of her youth career from U11-U16. Her last two years, U17 & 18, (ECNL) she had to share time, although measured by playing time, she was still the #1. In her last season, there were even 3 keepers on the team. All 3 were excellent, roughly the same level of player, but with different strengths. As it turned out with injuries, ACT tests, etc., the team never had all 3 in uniform for a single game. So for sure, a top level team is always going to strive to have at minimum 2 quality keepers.

My kids' coach did an admirable job keeping them rotating as far as pure minutes goes, but I always wished that he had handled it a little differently. He let them work out an alternating halves schedule, and then every now and then, when his gut told him to make a change in the pre-arranged schedule, he would. In my opinion, a keeper needs to know their role and prepare for it. Instead of rotating and changing up who is the starter and who is the finisher week to week and deciding this just before the game, a keeper needs plenty of advance notice and prep as either the starter or the finisher. Or better yet, designate one for an entire game and alternate games. Because the mental state of mind of a keeper is the most critical psyche on the field to ensure is in the right place, you've got to have lots of prediction and advance notice. If you know you're the #1, or you know for sure that week you're the #2, it allows you to prepare yourself mentally for that role in the best way possible. Several times, her coach adjusted on the fly, usually to the benefit of my daughter's playing time, but every time he did, it kind of wrecked the other keeper and made my daughter have to re-frame her expectations as well. To the coach's credit, his calls in that regard ended up paying off in a win, but it also brought some negatives because it screwed with the chemistry. I'm not sure if that's a big deal in the boys' game, but in the girls' game, team chemistry is HUGE. The biggest factor for success in splitting time is if the keepers get along. If they don't, it will suck. If they do, they can be a support system for each other.

As others have said here, the way a defense reacts to a particular keeper is an important and, IHMO, the most underrated quality of a keeper. Warning, brag ahead... My DD's defense always played better with her in the pipes during those two years of splitting time. The other keepers could do some things athletically that mine couldn't, and always looked more amazing in warm ups. But the team's record with each in goal spoke for itself. Luckily for my kid, our coach recognized that and when it came to crunch time, usually gave her the call.

Interestingly, I found that splitting time did not really affect the recruitment of any of the team's keepers very much. There were a couple of times in showcases where a coach recruiting one of them showed up for the wrong half, but other than that, all three got exactly the kind of looks they needed to get recruited. Ultimately, they all ended up where they were meant to be and were better for the experience of sharing time and learning how to navigate the ups and downs together.

Also, no way there will only be a single GK on a college team, so multiple gks helps them learn to compete with each other for time and also support one another. IMO

 

[espola]

Also, no way there will only be a single GK on a college team, so multiple gks helps them learn to compete with each other for time and also support one another. IMO

When my son started play at UC Davis some years ago, there were 4 keepers listed on the pre-season roster - a Senior who had been the primary keeper the year before, a red-shirt Sophomore, a true Sophomore walkon , and a Freshman. By the first game, the Sophomore had decided he wasn't going to get much game time so he dropped out. A few games into the season, both of the older players were taken out by injuries (a concussion and a shoulder, but I don't remember which was which). The Freshman ended playing about half the GKminutes that year, and was the default starter the next three.

 

[happy9]

Also, no way there will only be a single GK on a college team, so multiple gks helps them learn to compete with each other for time and also support one another. IMO

It's in the best interest of a college to have multiple keepers. They are insulated from parents and aren't required to give everyone minutes. Throw in a few extra keepers, more tuition dollars. Some will eventually quit because they aren't playing- they'll recruit more keepers.

Youth teams are different - you have to factor in parents and playing time. In my experience, the surliest parents on the sidelines are the keeper parents, especially if there are two and one keeper gets minimal if any minutes. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, it's hard being a keeper and a keeper parent. Even harder when you aren't playing many minutes but still traveling. I know there are others with the opposite experience, just sharing mine.

But love the soccer discussion.

 

[Soccer1Bball5]

Was talking to the DOC last night, who is a big believer in keepers and loves my daughter, and he mentioned an advantage of two keepers that I hadn't thought of. Pregame warmup. The keeper not starting is the perfect partner to get the starter ready for the current game.

Jeff Tackett in his newsletter mentioned the importance of a consistent pregame warmup and my daughter started doing that this past weekend at a tourney in Az. I mentioned to one of the coaches that she needed 15 minutes and that she would let him know what she wanted to do during that time. They did that in the 3 games this weekend.

A few other firsts from this weekend. My daughter started taking free kicks that were outside the 18 all the way up to the center circle. With the wind at her back she also drop kicked a ball about 75 yards took a bounce, went off the keepers hands and gave us a corner kick. Need to work on her accuracy. Lastly we were down 2-0 with little time left and she went into the other teams box to try and score on a throw in. Unfortunately the whistle blew before the throw in. Very funny to see how reluctant she was to go into the box. So nice to play soccer.

Agree on the warmup. My son had to leave after the first half. I thought he was going to pickup his stuff and leave right away. But on his own, he stayed to warmup the other keeper and left after the 2nd half started.

 

[Grace T.]

In my experience, the surliest parents on the sidelines are the keeper parents, especially if there are two and one keeper gets minimal if any minutes. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, it's hard being a keeper and a keeper parent. Even harder when you aren't playing many minutes but still traveling. I know there are others with the opposite experience, just sharing mine.

That’s why splitting doesn’t really work if the keepers aren’t similarly placed. If the 2nd keeper isn’t getting a lot of minutes it’s because there’s a very clear discrepancy in skills, at least as far as that teams system is concerned (The keeper could for example be very good with the backpass but the coaches just want the ball booted).

On a Younger’s team this means you pretty much have to move. If the senior keeper takes their training seriously (eg training more than once a week) it’s going to be virtually impossible for the weaker keeper to catch up (by the time the weaker keeper masters a basic skill the senior keeper has mastered an advanced one). Sure ideally the coach should develop them both but that’s really hard to justify to the other parents if it means sacrificing the win to develop the weaker keeper. The only real exception to this is if the kid is new to keeping...maybe he’ll be a natural and a quick study or maybe she’s just looking for an introduction and plans to move on the following year. Otherwise, unless the senior keeper isn’t taking it seriously or plans to move, it’s hard to see how the situation is worth it. Some parents though can be reluctant to move if it means stepping down a level but all the gk coaches I’ve interacted with have said at the younger level playtime, not team rank, is vital.

on the senior level the choice is whether the exposure or credential is enough to overcome the lack of playtime. The less minutes the worse the trade off. The lower the level of the team the worse the trade off.

 

[Eagle33]

That’s why splitting doesn’t really work if the keepers aren’t similarly placed. If the 2nd keeper isn’t getting a lot of minutes it’s because there’s a very clear discrepancy in skills, at least as far as that teams system is concerned (The keeper could for example be very good with the backpass but the coaches just want the ball booted).

On a Younger’s team this means you pretty much have to move. If the senior keeper takes their training seriously (eg training more than once a week) it’s going to be virtually impossible for the weaker keeper to catch up (by the time the weaker keeper masters a basic skill the senior keeper has mastered an advanced one). Sure ideally the coach should develop them both but that’s really hard to justify to the other parents if it means sacrificing the win to develop the weaker keeper. The only real exception to this is if the kid is new to keeping...maybe he’ll be a natural and a quick study or maybe she’s just looking for an introduction and plans to move on the following year. Otherwise, unless the senior keeper isn’t taking it seriously or plans to move, it’s hard to see how the situation is worth it. Some parents though can be reluctant to move if it means stepping down a level but all the gk coaches I’ve interacted with have said at the younger level playtime, not team rank, is vital.

on the senior level the choice is whether the exposure or credential is enough to overcome the lack of playtime. The less minutes the worse the trade off. The lower the level of the team the worse the trade off.

You are correct at younger level it is different, but we are discussing olders.
GK is very independent position and requires specialized training which 99% of team coaches will not provide. You are lucky if your team coach can do this. Therefore, it's important to get on an Elite team, which in most cases will have a dedicated GK trainer. Splitting time at high level is not a common practice. Best GK should be playing and 2nd best should be competing for the spot. That's how it works in a real world (not pay-to-play soccer).
It is common misconception that level is not important and, as you said, many coaches will tell you exactly the opposite to get your kid to play for them. Letting in 5-6 goals every game because you have no defense in front of you does nothing for GK confidence, but saving that 1 and only shot on goal playing for the good team does everything. BTW Confidence is 90% trade of a GK profile.

 

[dad4]

You are correct at younger level it is different, but we are discussing olders.
GK is very independent position and requires specialized training which 99% of team coaches will not provide. You are lucky if your team coach can do this. Therefore, it's important to get on an Elite team, which in most cases will have a dedicated GK trainer. Splitting time at high level is not a common practice. Best GK should be playing and 2nd best should be competing for the spot. That's how it works in a real world (not pay-to-play soccer).
It is common misconception that level is not important and, as you said, many coaches will tell you exactly the opposite to get your kid to play for them. Letting in 5-6 goals every game because you have no defense in front of you does nothing for GK confidence, but saving that 1 and only shot on goal playing for the good team does everything. BTW Confidence is 90% trade of a GK profile.

Why would anyone pay for their child to be in the 2nd GK spot with no playing time? Spending thousands of dollars and skipping school to travel but not play?

Seems a waste of time and money. If the club coach thinks you aren’t good enough to put in a game, why would the D1 coach think any differently?

 

[Grace T.]

Why would anyone pay for their child to be in the 2nd GK spot with no playing time? Spending thousands of dollars and skipping school to travel but not play?

Seems a waste of time and money. If the club coach thinks you aren’t good enough to put in a game, why would the D1 coach think any differently?

If the team is high enough (e.g., an olders MLS academy), the 2nd keeper might be chasing the dragon...hoping if the 1st has a bad slump or injury, they might be able to prove themselves either to the academy team or a team overseas. In that case there's some value to be traded off the LAFC name, for example, if you are willing to go play for a 2ndary team in Estonia. But more often than not, it's just chasing the dragon. But for college, in Jeff's latest newsletter he highlights that the most important thing is you must be playing.

p.s. when it goes badly among the boys, from what I've seen it generally starts with who deserves the number 1 on their jersey.

 

[Eagle33]

Why would anyone pay for their child to be in the 2nd GK spot with no playing time? Spending thousands of dollars and skipping school to travel but not play?

Seems a waste of time and money. If the club coach thinks you aren’t good enough to put in a game, why would the D1 coach think any differently?

D1 coaches don't look for 2nd keepers. But D2, D3, NAIA, JC do. Normally 2nd keepers get a chance to play at showcases. That's what actually showcases are for - doesn't' mean much, except for everyone to get a chance to play in front of a college coach. There are also Id camps.

 

[Mystery Train]

D1 coaches don't look for 2nd keepers. But D2, D3, NAIA, JC do. Normally 2nd keepers get a chance to play at showcases. That's what actually showcases are for - doesn't' mean much, except for everyone to get a chance to play in front of a college coach. There are also Id camps.

Just an anecdote, but I personally know of three ECNL teams that had 2nd keepers that all signed to play D1. Generally, I agree with what you're saying, but it's also important to know that there's lots of options for good keepers, even the "back up" on a really high level team.

Not to hijack this thread, as we're talking about splitting time in club, but with regards to college recruiting opportunities, I think we tend to oversimplify the conversation when we talk about D1, 2, 3, etc. There's not a clean delineation of programs between the different divisions. Not every D1 opportunity is better than every D2 or D3 or even NAIA opportunity just because it's "D1." Here's a real world example: ECNL keeper for a solid performing team got playing offers at several D1 schools, including two Power 5 programs (PAC 12 & Big10) but no athletic $, and little academic $... so the cost equation with limited chance of early playing time meant these weren't attractive to that player and family. A religious mid-western D1 school offered with significant athletic $, but location wasn't desirable and not good fit for player's academic profile. Had a full ride offer from a JuCo and opportunity to start immediately, player didn't like location or the idea of going JuCo (though this might be ideal for some families and students). Had varying offers from D2 schools, and chose one with significant athletic $, low-cost in-state tuition, and opportunity to play early. But that's very specific to one player's preferences. Some kids are adventurous and don't want to stay in-state. Some have just one dream school and everything else pales in comparison.

You hope your player ends up choosing the opportunity with the best combination of location, coach/culture, academic profile, playing opportunity and cost, but of course, you never know what you're getting into. Just check out the verbal/psychological abuse allegations from former players at Cal's women's soccer team. The open letter from their former keeper should be required reading for kids and parents chasing that "Division 1 Soccer Dream." (see below)

As for splitting time, and getting recruited, the point I'm trying to make is that there are so many variables to consider, it's impossible to make a blanket statement about "never" playing as the 2nd keeper in a club.

https://www.ktvu.com/news/surviving...s-allegations-of-abuse-in-cals-soccer-program

 

[happy9]

I think we tend to oversimplify the conversation when we talk about D1, 2, 3, etc. There's not a clean delineation of programs between the different divisions. Not every D1 opportunity is better than every D2 or D3 or even NAIA opportunity just because it's "D1."

When players and parents finally figure this out, it reduces all of the self imposed anxiety associated with the process and it becomes fun for the whole family. Cannot be overemphasized enough

 

[socalkdg]

Letting in 5-6 goals every game because you have no defense in front of you does nothing for GK confidence, but saving that 1 and only shot on goal playing for the good team does everything. BTW Confidence is 90% trade of a GK profile.

Any keeper that loses confidence giving up goals shouldn't be a keeper. Each goal, each shot, is an opportunity to learn. There are so many different situations that can't be recreated in keeper training that need game time situations.

We are a good team that has played some great teams(ECNL). I watch the other keeper get 3 saves, 2 of which were right to her, with one difficult save, plus giving up one goal. Maybe 5-6 distribution chances.

We give up 2 goals a half and lose 4-1. 2nd half we go to 3 in the back line instead of 4 since we are down 2-0 and put another up top. For those 4 goals two were upper left or right corners just inside the bar, no chance last year, maybe a better one this year since she grew a couple inches, one is saving two point blank shots but having the 3rd go in because no help to clear, and the 4th is a cross that maybe she could have deflected better but no defense was in the middle to clear. She also made about 10 saves, had 15 distribution chances, and tons of learning opportunities on crosses, set plays, corners, bad pass backs, etc. Video it all and she can discuss with her keeper coach and continue to learn and gain experience.

 

[Keepermom2]

I love these conversations from you experienced folk because it truly helps me and makes me see my own questions about things are normal.

From a youth soccer perspective, I have found that I would rather my daughter be on a team that she shares the position than a team where she is the sole Keeper as a result of how the coach teaches the game and what she stands to gain in knowledge. I have recently found that coach but of course he used to be a Keeper in college. She just received her first evaluation after 4 years in club soccer. It was well thought out and hit the nail on the head for her. She left the meeting motivated and feeling good. He handled that evaluation better than most business professionals I have seen. He is what I expected all coaches in club soccer would be when we embarked on club soccer....passionate about development of the individual. Boy was I naive!!!! Of course most of you that are responding are or have been involved with ECNL or DA. Maybe it is different.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

From GK individual standpoint as well as GK parent of course he/she wants to be the starting and/or the only keeper. However, in real world it's impossible to have 1 keeper (specially on elite team) from team or coach's standpoint. Ideally, you would have a field player capable to fill-in in case GK is injured, Red carded, etc. and this way you can have the only GK. This player must be capable and willing. If you have this - great, but most elite teams will have 2 or more GK's. Now how they split time and how to keep them happy is up to your coach.
As far as recruiting process (speaking from personal experience), it's important to get on a team with high visibility for college coaches (participating in college showcases, attending ID camps, playing in Elite circuit - DA (in the past), ECNL, CRL, etc.). Communication is The Key to recruiting success. GK must have video available and not just a highlight reel, but combination of skills breakdown - distribution, shot stopping, corner kicks, 1v1, punts/goal kicks, etc.

One of the families we know has their keeper/daughter play as an ECNL Discovery Player as well as on her local NPL team (non-ECNL). In some ways, it's the best of both worlds. She gets exposure at the ECNL level and splits games with our non-discovery goalie and she gets to play full time with her local team. It also allows the other ECNL keeper to get full games in NPL. Another "benefit" is that her local team doesn't play defense at the level of the ECNL team. Actual game work is nice to have and she typically gets more than twice the actual work/touches that she does with her ECNL team. I like the idea of having a goalie play regularly on a team that doesn't dominate. It presents many opportunities to go to the back of the net, get the ball, and re-set their mind. Keepers may not be the highest paid, but I'd argue that they need the highest level of mental toughness to thrive.

 

[Grace T.]

One of the families we know has their keeper/daughter play as an ECNL Discovery Player as well as on her local NPL team (non-ECNL). In some ways, it's the best of both worlds. She gets exposure at the ECNL level and splits games with our non-discovery goalie and she gets to play full time with her local team. It also allows the other ECNL keeper to get full games in NPL. Another "benefit" is that her local team doesn't play defense at the level of the ECNL team. Actual game work is nice to have and she typically gets more than twice the actual work/touches that she does with her ECNL team. I like the idea of having a goalie play regularly on a team that doesn't dominate. It presents many opportunities to go to the back of the net, get the ball, and re-set their mind. Keepers may not be the highest paid, but I'd argue that they need the highest level of mental toughness to thrive.

I wrote this story before. My son's best experience ever was once a new team that was having only it's second game they were placed against a silver elite team making a run for gold. By the end of the game he had taken something obscene like 30-40 shots on goal and the score was 9-1. Almost all of them that went in were over his head or a 1-2 or 1-2-3 combinations. I was filming from the other side (it was a Sunday league and the teams were both largely hispanic so everyone was on friendly terms) and I kept hearing comments like "look at that little keeper" or "oh my god". When it was over the parents on the other team stood up and applauded him and yelled "porterito!". He grew more that day that on the entire previous year with another team that eventually won the state cup.

 

[Mystery Train]

He is what I expected all coaches in club soccer would be when we embarked on club soccer....passionate about development of the individual. Boy was I naive!!!! Of course most of you that are responding are or have been involved with ECNL or DA. Maybe it is different.

Nope. No different at all. LOL In fact, I would say that the coaches who do the best job at developing individual players can be found more often at the lower levels because they're less focused on winning. The "higher" level leagues generally attract win-at-all-cost coaches whose greatest skill is identifying and recruiting talented players. There's always exceptions, of course, but I can confidently say your kid should stick with a coach like that no matter what league it is.