Today in Fascism

whatithink said:
That's really trying to reshape an entire narrative. At its core, this is about Palestinians have a right to self determination in their own land. That has been coopted by Hamas in Gaza. Returning the hostages will not end the current conflict. The Israeli minister for finance (I think) who is an extreme right pol has stated that the IDF will go into Rafah irrespective and if Netanyahu doesn't the gov will fall, hostage return or not.

Hamas literally accepted a ceasefire last week, only for Netanyahu to say it wasn't enough. Neither side, to my mind, want a ceasefire, for different reasons, as they both see winning in different terms. The leader of Hamas in Gaza (don't recall the name) is reportedly saying that they have already won, irrespective of whether he and every Hamas fighter in Gaza dies, i.e. they have achieved their objective. Netanyahu knows that once the war stops he's probably done, so he must "defeat" Hamas to have any political future, and even then its doubtful. His minimum must be that Hamas is defeated, not that the hostages have been returned.
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Most of this is untrue. That's total BS that Hamas accepted the ceasefire. That was a lie they're using to garner support. The agreed to their own counter-proposal. They didn't agree to the cease-fire proposal that was being brokered by Egypt and Qatar.

You're reshaping the narrative by claiming that they want self-determination in their own land. They want to destroy Israel it's that plain and simple. The Palestinians have never chosen peace for land. They don't want a two-state solution and claiming they do is an outright lie. Remember what these protests are supporting:
"From the river to the sea"
"By any means necessary"
"Glory to our martyrs"
"Intifada"
"The final solution"

Yes, I'm sure there are "right wing" Israelis that don't want a two-state solution, but I can't blame them based on the Palestinian's history of violence against Jews and what happened on October 7, 2023. No way that the Palestinians should be rewarded for that behavior. Sorry, but your on the wrong side of history.
 
watfly said:
Most of this is untrue. That's total BS that Hamas accepted the ceasefire. That was a lie they're using to garner support. The agreed to their own counter-proposal. They didn't agree to the cease-fire proposal that was being brokered by Egypt and Qatar.

You're reshaping the narrative by claiming that they want self-determination in their own land. They want to destroy Israel it's that plain and simple. The Palestinians have never chosen peace for land. They don't want a two-state solution and claiming they do is an outright lie. Remember what these protests are supporting:
"From the river to the sea"
"By any means necessary"
"Glory to our martyrs"
"Intifada"
"The final solution"

Yes, I'm sure there are "right wing" Israelis that don't want a two-state solution, but I can't blame them based on the Palestinian's history of violence against Jews and what happened on October 7, 2023. No way that the Palestinians should be rewarded for that behavior. Sorry, but your on the wrong side of history.
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It was not a ceasefire, it was a 40 day pause. The day after Blinker said it was wonderful, Netanyahu said that Israel is going into Rafah irrespective of whether Hamas accepts what was on the table. That was prior to any comment from Hamas.

You are conflating Hamas and Palestinians, which would be like me conflating the extreme right pols with all Israelis - both are wrong, which is why I don't do it. BTW, those same extreme right also use the term "from the river to the sea", but mean the opposite.

As for violence, over 200 Palestinians had been killed in the West Bank in 2023 prior to Oct 7th by Israeli forces. Israeli forces launched airstrikes against refugee camps there in June of 2023 FFS. That's been going on for years. That's the West Bank, not Gaza, not Hamas.

Hamas rule Gaza and the PLA rule the West Bank. Neither give a F about Palestinians. Neither give them a voice. Neither hold elections. The thing of course is, that nobody else gave much of a F either prior to this cluster.

Removing Hamas' military capabilities is a short term goal. What is Israel's medium/longer term goal for Palestinians? The same again is probably off the table. Two thirds of Gaza is rubble. A two state solution is the only thing that is viable, but that will never happen with the current Israeli gov or with Hamas/PLA, as it suits none of them - a united front bizarrely enough for opposite reasons.
 
espola said:
Please continue with your lucid thoughts.
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Another lazy go to from you.

Hopefully, when you call 911 for life and death help, that cop isn't tied up with a tree hugger sitting in the road or a Tommy Chong taking 2 cops out of their duty to serve and protect because it's easier to get paid for clicks than show up for work.
 
espola said:
At the time when we went into Iraq, I was working on a project developing a product for US Special Forces. Those people were convinced that Sadam had chemical weapons (he had even used them against Kurdish villages) and that he had the beginnings of a nuclear weapons program. I am still convinced that ridding the world of Sadam was a good move, even though the whole yellowcake story was a fiction.
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Allegedly we gave Saddam wmd (gas) to use on the Iranians, when he was our friend, so we were sure he had (our) wmd ... that would have been Rumsfeld giving and accusing!

Getting rid of Saddam (which in and of itself was no bad thing) was an enormous cluster and we never should have gone in there. Hundreds of thousands died for a lie, and chaos and carnage has resulted in the region with ISIS and the like since. Was killing Saddam really worth all that? We've supported plenty of murderous dictators, including Saddam, so why him? That choice had nothing to do with 911, Al Queda or any particular moral high ground, to remove some possible reasons.
 
watfly said:
My apologies for not finding something more recent, but this is 1 1/2 months old. 70% support. We can't agree on anything to this degree in the US.

themedialine.org

Poll Reveals Persistent Palestinian Support for Hamas Attacks on Israel - The Media Line

Nearly six months after Hamas attacked Israel on […]
themedialine.org themedialine.org
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Interesting. Some of the quotes and further answers within show why

Ramallah-based political analyst Esmat Mansour told The Media Line that a lack of political horizons fed Palestinian sentiment. “After three decades of no progress on the political front, like it or not, Hamas’ actions brought attention back to the Palestinian cause,” he said.

“Palestinians across the political spectrum have lost faith in the international community, and now believe that armed resistance is the way forward,” said Mansour.

I've made the point before that if you give people nothing to live for (to make their lives better) when they are living a horrible existence, then you give them everything to die for.

More in depth shows that a majority would not, however, actually vote for Hamas

Among other questions in the poll was who Palestinians would vote for if new parliamentary elections were held today. A plurality—36%—said they wouldn’t vote. Among vote-getters, Hamas won the largest percentage—30%. This was followed by “none of the above,” which won 15%. Just below this, with less than half the support won by Hamas, was PA President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah movement, which won 14% of the vote. Finally, 6% of respondents surveyed said they would back third parties.

Only 44% combined would actually vote for Hamas and the PLA.

You could easily read that poll to show that the majority of Palestinians want another way forward, without Hamas or the PLA.
 
Slobodan said:
Another lazy go to from you.

Hopefully, when you call 911 for life and death help, that cop isn't tied up with a tree hugger sitting in the road or a Tommy Chong taking 2 cops out of their duty to serve and protect because it's easier to get paid for clicks than show up for work.
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q.e.d.
 
whatithink said:
Allegedly we gave Saddam wmd (gas) to use on the Iranians, when he was our friend, so we were sure he had (our) wmd ... that would have been Rumsfeld giving and accusing!

Getting rid of Saddam (which in and of itself was no bad thing) was an enormous cluster and we never should have gone in there. Hundreds of thousands died for a lie, and chaos and carnage has resulted in the region with ISIS and the like since. Was killing Saddam really worth all that? We've supported plenty of murderous dictators, including Saddam, so why him? That choice had nothing to do with 911, Al Queda or any particular moral high ground, to remove some possible reasons.
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I don't necessarily disagree with you on Iraq, but if we're going back in time, a much greater intelligence failure occurred under the Carter administration which led to the fall of the Shah. Granted the Shah was not perfect, but the Ayatollah was pure evil and was the primary reason for the destabilization of the Middle East which obviously exists until this day.
 
whatithink said:
Interesting. Some of the quotes and further answers within show why

Ramallah-based political analyst Esmat Mansour told The Media Line that a lack of political horizons fed Palestinian sentiment. “After three decades of no progress on the political front, like it or not, Hamas’ actions brought attention back to the Palestinian cause,” he said.

“Palestinians across the political spectrum have lost faith in the international community, and now believe that armed resistance is the way forward,” said Mansour.

I've made the point before that if you give people nothing to live for (to make their lives better) when they are living a horrible existence, then you give them everything to die for.

More in depth shows that a majority would not, however, actually vote for Hamas

Among other questions in the poll was who Palestinians would vote for if new parliamentary elections were held today. A plurality—36%—said they wouldn’t vote. Among vote-getters, Hamas won the largest percentage—30%. This was followed by “none of the above,” which won 15%. Just below this, with less than half the support won by Hamas, was PA President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah movement, which won 14% of the vote. Finally, 6% of respondents surveyed said they would back third parties.

Only 44% combined would actually vote for Hamas and the PLA.

You could easily read that poll to show that the majority of Palestinians want another way forward, without Hamas or the PLA.
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We're not going to agree on this. I trust what I see with my own eyes, so that's what I'm going to rely on.
 
watfly said:
I don't necessarily disagree with you on Iraq, but if we're going back in time, a much greater intelligence failure occurred under the Carter administration which led to the fall of the Shah. Granted the Shah was not perfect, but the Ayatollah was pure evil and was the primary reason for the destabilization of the Middle East which obviously exists until this day.
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The Shah was a dictator (from 1941-79), who worked for us irrespective of the consequences - and yes, the Ayatollah was pure evil and his junkies since. We also loved Batista in Cuba, and that worked out excellently. What about the Southern Vietnamese autocrats from 1954 onward! There's Pinochet in Chile to add to the mix. Our judgement (or lack thereof) doesn't appear to be party specific.

TBH, the US is pretty shit at the whole geopolitics thing when it comes to dictators/autocrats because we couldn't give a crap about the people. Backing autocrats and dictators never ends well. One would hope that lesson is well learned ... wait, the suggestions that the PLA under Abbas (who couldn't be more unpopular in both Gaza & the West Back) should control Gaza show nothing has been learned.
 
watfly said:
We're not going to agree on this. I trust what I see with my own eyes, so that's what I'm going to rely on.
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Fine, I just quoted your article which says that 70% of Gazans would not vote for Hamas which would appear to be a pretty unequivocal rejection to me, but hey ho!
 
espola said:
q.e.d.
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Here's one for you, dummy. This is the shit cops have to deal with. Then you wonder why they might be wound up. Me? I'd only have to shoot one of them to get everyone's attention. I'll bet that would shut these uneducated, unemployed punks up and lose their badass. Truthfully, half of them are probably Biden voters here illegally.

 
Slobodan said:
Here's one for you, dummy. This is the shit cops have to deal with. Then you wonder why they might be wound up. Me? I'd only have to shoot one of them to get everyone's attention. I'll bet that would shut these uneducated, unemployed punks up and lose their badass. Truthfully, half of them are probably Biden voters here illegally.

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Truthfully?
 
watfly said:
I don't necessarily disagree with you on Iraq, but if we're going back in time, a much greater intelligence failure occurred under the Carter administration which led to the fall of the Shah. Granted the Shah was not perfect, but the Ayatollah was pure evil and was the primary reason for the destabilization of the Middle East which obviously exists until this day.
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CIA is responsible for all this shit. They prop countries up or kill the leaders if they don't obey.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
This is how fascist dictators do things.

A CNN correspondent was barred from attending an open press event at the White House on Wednesday because of questions she asked President Donald Trump earlier in the day.

Caitlin Collins and her employer, CNN, say the White House denied Collins access to Trump's Rose Garden event with the European Commission president because officials found her earlier questions "inappropriate."

http://myconnection.cox.com/article/entertainment/d68a9d52-90d9-11e8-a88d-dc8606b09324/
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Wow... you started this entire thread to cry about Trump and look how poorly it's held up, CisKer. Would you say JoeTato Briben is a fascist? Go head and ignore it. That's what you and Fudd do.

 
whatithink said:
Fine, I just quoted your article which says that 70% of Gazans would not vote for Hamas which would appear to be a pretty unequivocal rejection to me, but hey ho!
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While 70% supported Hamas actions on October 7. They might not vote for Hamas but they overwhelmingly support Hamas terrorist actions. Maybe Palestinians prefer a different anti-Jew organization that doesn't use them as human shields and their deaths as propaganda.
 
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