State Cup

[Surfref]

QUOTE="ATRTDT, post: 188331, member: 3099"]You signed up for a physical sport. Have you actually looked over the liability waiver you sign each season? Things happen. Things can also happen through the course of a game that pulls emotion out of players. Injury,rehab and recovery is all part of it too. If you dont want physical contact sign your kids up for dance, tennis, bowling or ice skating. Since California seems to be the leader in comical new laws will it be the first state to mandate jail time for personal fouls, red cards and flagrant fouls in youth sports? Imagine the extra tax revenue and all that extra sleep some parents would get at nigh knowing their dear prince and princess wont be pushed around on a Sunday afternoon. Seems like this would be the only way to make some of you happy. Probably the same people complaining here are the ones who pushed for trophy's and medals for all. Crying parents are just killing sports these days.[/QUOTE]

I am a referee and know the difference between, careless, reckless, dangerous and thug play. The majority, 99.99 %, of players play at the reckless level or below with a majority of those rarely fouling. Even some of the dangerous plays are not intentional, but are bad timing or technique. It is those 0.01% of thug players that is the problem and have no place on any soccer field. All I am trying to get at is, it is okay to have physical contact even some reckless contact. But, the intentional dangerous play and overly physical or violent play (thugery) has no place on a youth field , amateur field, semi-pro or pro field. If a player cannot keep their emotions under control and they have to resort to punching or horse collar tackles on an opponent or teammate, than maybe they should not be on the field.

My daughter's two serious injuries during youth soccer were caused by players that had histories of overly physical behavior and numerous ejections. Her broken wrist occurred when she was trying to block a thug player's punch to her face. The concussion occurred when a defender that could not stop my daughter decided to grab her around the neck (horse collar) and throw her to the ground. I do not know of anyone that expects that type of play on any soccer field. If you think those two examples are normal behavior, than I really feel sorry for you and can recommend a good therapist.

 

[MyDaughtersAKeeper]

You signed up for a physical sport. (1) Have you actually looked over the liability waiver you sign each season? (2) Things happen. Things can also happen through the course of a game that pulls emotion out of players. Injury,rehab and recovery is all part of it too. (3) If you dont want physical contact sign your kids up for dance, tennis, bowling or ice skating.(4) Since California seems to be the leader in comical new laws will it be the first state to mandate jail time for personal fouls, red cards and flagrant fouls in youth sports? (5) Imagine the extra tax revenue and all that extra sleep some parents would get at nigh knowing their dear prince and princess wont be pushed around on a Sunday afternoon. (6) Seems like this would be the only way to make some of you happy. (7) Probably the same people complaining here are the ones who pushed for trophy's and medals for all. (8) Crying parents are just killing sports these days (9) .

(1) yes, signed up for a physical sport, not an attack on my kid
(2) no, doesn't matter. No room in any level of sports for thuggery. Even the NHL understands that
(3) yes, but you shouldn't have to "recover" from an assault on the field
(4) see #1 above,
(5) no, but I am OK if we are a leader in taking steps to protect our kids
(6) I don't know of any parent who has a kid playing at a high level that doesn't expect contact. None of them think it is OK for their kid to be assaulted (not even on the pitch)
(7) No, just want to referees to call the game and keep the kids safe; nothing more/nothing less
(8) the kids I know don't want a trophy for showing up
(9) the good old days; when men were men, women were women, American kids played American sports and Title IX wasn't screwing everything up for every WASPy male.
(10) If you think a kid assaulting another kid on the pitch (or in any game) is just a par of the "game," then you are the problem with youth sports.

 

[Fact]

QUOTE="ATRTDT, post: 188331, member: 3099"]You signed up for a physical sport. Have you actually looked over the liability waiver you sign each season? Things happen. Things can also happen through the course of a game that pulls emotion out of players. Injury,rehab and recovery is all part of it too. If you dont want physical contact sign your kids up for dance, tennis, bowling or ice skating. Since California seems to be the leader in comical new laws will it be the first state to mandate jail time for personal fouls, red cards and flagrant fouls in youth sports? Imagine the extra tax revenue and all that extra sleep some parents would get at nigh knowing their dear prince and princess wont be pushed around on a Sunday afternoon. Seems like this would be the only way to make some of you happy. Probably the same people complaining here are the ones who pushed for trophy's and medals for all. Crying parents are just killing sports these days.

I am a referee and know the difference between, careless, reckless, dangerous and thug play. The majority, 99.99 %, of players play at the reckless level or below with a majority of those rarely fouling. Even some of the dangerous plays are not intentional, but are bad timing or technique. It is those 0.01% of thug players that is the problem and have no place on any soccer field. All I am trying to get at is, it is okay to have physical contact even some reckless contact. But, the intentional dangerous play and overly physical or violent play (thugery) has no place on a youth field , amateur field, semi-pro or pro field. If a player cannot keep their emotions under control and they have to resort to punching or horse collar tackles on an opponent or teammate, than maybe they should not be on the field.

My daughter's two serious injuries during youth soccer were caused by players that had histories of overly physical behavior and numerous ejections. Her broken wrist occurred when she was trying to block a thug player's punch to her face. The concussion occurred when a defender that could not stop my daughter decided to grab her around the neck (horse collar) and throw her to the ground. I do not know of anyone that expects that type of play on any soccer field. If you think those two examples are normal behavior, than I really feel sorry for you and can recommend a good therapist.[/QUOTE]
Just current what age were these fouls committed and what was the outcome? Any cards given?

 

[Sheriff Joe]

Like you said, it’s just a game. So why are so agitated?

Before you go all high and mighty, bashing Trump and Texas coaches and about punctuation and name calling, better check yourself.
What team in texas do you coach?

 

[Sheriff Joe]

We have a wanna be lawyer. CA and WA do not “follow similar paths because they’re in the 9th Circuit.” The 9th circuit is a federal court, which means it has jurisdiction over claims arising under federal law or certain civil state law disputes between litigants of multiple states. Even in the case of the latter, individual state law applies. This is a moot point, though, because we are talking about criminal law. And diversity jurisdiction does not apply to state criminal law. And criminal battery statutes are a creation of individual state law.

But if you are gonna be a wanna be lawyer moving forward, I recommend that you read the case you cite before relying on it to support your position. Because it says the opposite of what you claim it says. What it really says is:

“Here, taking Shelley's version of the events as true, the magnitude and dangerousness of Shelley's actions were beyond the limit. There is no question that Shelley lashed out at Gonzalez with sufficient force to land a substantial blow to the jaw, and there is no question but that Shelley intended to hit Gonzalez.   There is nothing in the game of basketball, or even rugby or hockey, that would permit consent as a defense to such conduct.   Shelley admitted to an assault and was not precluded from arguing that the assault justified self-defense;  but justification and consent are not the same inquiry.”

Rather, the court held that “intentional excesses beyond those reasonably contemplated in the sport are not justified”, which is the standard in WA, not the gobbledegook you are claiming. And (for the benefit of my favorite Texas football coach), this case actually cites another case in which a football player was criminally liable for punching someone because he didn’t like how he was tackled and believed he’d been punched as part of the tackle. The first punch was part of the play (and therefore within the scope of the game), but the one that came after was not, and was therefore outside the reasonable expectations of a participant. That becomes an important point shortly (see below).

Here, admittedly it was not a punch to the jaw. Instead, if the photos accurately depict what transpired, it may be worse in the sense that it appears to have been a cheap shot from behind and did not involve the protection of a football helmet. The fact that it appears to have been away from the ball is actually critical, notwithstanding your protestations otherwise, because this is the fact that appears to put this beyond just rough play and probably establishes the necessary intent. And, as in the football case, also establishes that it was far enough removed from the run of play to arguably prohibit the defense of implied consent. The last time I checked, jumping someone from behind, grabbing them by the neck and then throwing them the ground wasn’t something to which young girls consent when they choose to spend a lovely afternoon on the soccer pitch with their peers. So I guess this means I definitively win this argument, at least in WA. But probably in CA too, since they’re both in the 9th circuit....

In the end, you miss the point, though, which is no one cares if it’s a crime or not, and I think we all agree it would be a “crime” to criminally prosecute a minor for this kind of behavior unless there’s a lot more. The point of this thread - before our TX football coach and others tried to act like law professors - is what you think about the photos and whether you think they should have been posted at all.

Another fake attorney.

 

[Dominic]

Would that foul be considered a VC?

 

[Pebbs99]

I was born in a different country. Growing up, we would play on the streets without referees. We would play with the kids in the neighborhood, some kids were 3 or 4 years older, sometimes even more. There was always physically, and some “thuggery” and unfortunately there were some injuries because kids would get emotional. I remember after I embarrassed a kid 5 years older, after i ran past him, he slide tackle me from behind and hurt my ankle. I went home crying and I got beat by my mom for “getting hurt” and “letting myself get bullied”. It thought me to be smarter on the field, I would be more aware of my sorroundings, and other things.
Anyway, things like this exist all over the world. Is it right?, no. But we deal with it, it’s a game, once it’s done, it’s done. How many times have you seen this type of foul in professional soccer? The most they give a player for that is 2 games, why should youth soccer be so off and want “jail time”. (Im exaggerating your responses btw).

 

[coachrefparent]

I was born in a different country. Growing up, we would play on the streets without referees. We would play with the kids in the neighborhood, some kids were 3 or 4 years older, sometimes even more. There was always physically, and some “thuggery” and unfortunately there were some injuries because kids would get emotional. I remember after I embarrassed a kid 5 years older, after i ran past him, he slide tackle me from behind and hurt my ankle. I went home crying and I got beat by my mom for “getting hurt” and “letting myself get bullied”. It thought me to be smarter on the field, I would be more aware of my sorroundings, and other things.
Anyway, things like this exist all over the world. Is it right?, no. But we deal with it, it’s a game, once it’s done, it’s done. How many times have you seen this type of foul in professional soccer? The most they give a player for that is 2 games, why should youth soccer be so off and want “jail time”. (Im exaggerating your responses btw).

No it's not right. I'm sorry your mom treated you that way. Sad.

 

[watfly]

Kudos to the OP for removing the photos. That's a classy move. Hopefully others will learn from this that it's not OK for an adult to photo shame a minor. Just because you think a kid is thug is no rationalization for photo shaming.

Thug behavior should be punished by the ref and/or the appropriate organization/authority, not by some emotional parent.

 

[NickName]

Thug behavior should be punished by the ref and/or the appropriate organization/authority, not by some emotional parent.

*the following is a bit tongue in cheek

What if the emotional parent is proud of his kid for (semi)thuggish behavior?
My kid got booted from a game for throwing a ball at someone. Initially it was a wtf moment for me until I talked to him after the game (then watched the video).
Turns out that he was slide tackled from behind (easy call) then the kid grabbed the ball and lobbed it (not hard) at his head as he was laying on the ground.
Only time I’ve seen my kid lose his cool completely.

 

[watfly]

*the following is a bit tongue in cheek

What if the emotional parent is proud of his kid for (semi)thuggish behavior?
My kid got booted from a game for throwing a ball at someone. Initially it was a wtf moment for me until I talked to him after the game (then watched the video).
Turns out that he was slide tackled from behind (easy call) then the kid grabbed the ball and lobbed it (not hard) at his head as he was laying on the ground.
Only time I’ve seen my kid lose his cool completely.

Personally, I think that's awesome. Your son handled his business without Mommy or Daddy interfering and next time he will think twice about losing his temper and hurting the team. Win, win.

 

[Surfref]

I am a referee and know the difference between, careless, reckless, dangerous and thug play. The majority, 99.99 %, of players play at the reckless level or below with a majority of those rarely fouling. Even some of the dangerous plays are not intentional, but are bad timing or technique. It is those 0.01% of thug players that is the problem and have no place on any soccer field. All I am trying to get at is, it is okay to have physical contact even some reckless contact. But, the intentional dangerous play and overly physical or violent play (thugery) has no place on a youth field , amateur field, semi-pro or pro field. If a player cannot keep their emotions under control and they have to resort to punching or horse collar tackles on an opponent or teammate, than maybe they should not be on the field.

My daughter's two serious injuries during youth soccer were caused by players that had histories of overly physical behavior and numerous ejections. Her broken wrist occurred when she was trying to block a thug player's punch to her face. The concussion occurred when a defender that could not stop my daughter decided to grab her around the neck (horse collar) and throw her to the ground. I do not know of anyone that expects that type of play on any soccer field. If you think those two examples are normal behavior, than I really feel sorry for you and can recommend a good therapist.

Just current what age were these fouls committed and what was the outcome? Any cards given?[/QUOTE]

16 and 17 years old. 16 y/o - red card and 3 game suspension. 17 y/o - red card and suspended for 7 games (remainder of fall season), since it was the offending player’s 3rd red card with a prior violent assault. DD club DOC and coach submitted 3 videos as evidence to the league to show the incident was intentional and violent. DD was back playing the next weekend after the broken wrist and was out 6 weeks and missed a week of school with the concussion.

 

[Surfref]

Would that foul be considered a VC?

Yes

 

[SSJSG UI]

We played a much bigger team this year and at the time of our first game facing each other we were both undefeated in a bronze division. We scored two quick goals within the first five minutes against them and what happened after those two quick goals was astounding. Someone on our team who understood their language (not Spanish) heard the other opposing coach said go after the little forward and take him out. Slide tackles from the back, push from the back, and shoulder to the chest started to happen. Not a single foul was called over the next 10 minutes even after so many pleads from the coaches. Ref just didn't care. The little forward got back up right away every single time as he doesn't believe in flopping (he now does LOL). Then our parents started to get agitated as tough plays were started to happen to other players. Keep in mind that these are 07 boys so they are like 9 and 10 years old so some of them started to be afraid (can't blame them) and they ended up taking the lead before the half ended.

After half time, tough plays were still happening and the little forward along with his best buddy on the team just had it with the tough plays and fouled back prompting the opposing sides' parents to yell. Then our parents yelled back telling them to sit down and watch the game. One said how you like them apples or something to that effect. The back and forth actually went on for a good portion of the game so you would have thought the ref would put a stop to it but he just kept on going without blowing a whistle. Our coach told us to calm down but at that point, it was just too late. We ended up losing 5-2 or 6-2 because our team got so dinged up and quite frankly they were afraid. In hindsight, we should have just left and forfeited (and that's what we agreed to do in the future).

We didn't leave for 30 minutes because our coach was giving our kids (who were crying at that time) a prep talk. Because of the yelling from our side when their kids were fouled by our kids, those parents actually waited (for 30 minutes) and confronted us in the parking lot. Their coach got into with the parents too after one of us call him out on his intention to hurt our boys. Luckily, one of our parent said the cops were called and those guys scattered like cockroaches. Our coach, who has been in the business for over 20 years, have never seen this. He's seen reckless plays, dirty plays, and careless plays, but nothing like these boys were doing.

That was the first game. We actually had a second game left at our home field. Because of what happened, we asked our club to get three refs and get some security. We got two refs and no security (wasn't really expecting security, but we thought it wouldn't hurt to ask). Some of the parents who were in the parking lot scuffle were told to stay home to avoid running into those parents again. Our team manager told the refs what happened in the first game and asked them to please call the games tight even if we are doing the ticky tact fouls. You would have thought it went better? Nope. Again, we scored first. Again, fouls started to happened. But this time the refs started to call fouls. However, the fouls got harder and harder as the refs called for more fouls, and the refs had to stop the game a few time to tell the other coach to calm down. Except for the fouls, that was actually a good game. It was tied 2-2 until 3 minutes left when they scored what ended up to be the game winning goal. It actually was a good goal as the kid half volleyed it in. Kid celebrated like CR7 (of course he did LOL)....but guess what one of the parents went out to the field and celebrated with the kid picking him up and ran across the pitch. The center ref threw him out but he didn't leave the field. He went to the entrance which was like 30 yards away. Once the final whistle blow, that same parent took off his shirt and started running toward the field waving his shirt around. Our coach started to confront the coach and said that it was uncalled for and that parent actually threatened our coach. He along with another dad waited outside the entrance, but again, one of our dads told those two to scram because police was called. Needless to say they left, but as they were walking out, they were chanting XX (our club name) sucks, XX are P-word. It took me great restraint not to go apeshit on those two.

I have a video of that fool celebrating and running around celebrating as if he won the world cup but i wont post it anywhere. I really want to shame him on the internet but my wife talked me out of it as both team's kids faces were fairly clear. I understand OP's frustration and the reason for the post. We actually saw one of their state cup game from afar and the same dirty plays happened. Fouls were called and their coach and parents got into with the refs. Dont know what happened next as our game were starting.

My question to the refs in this community, are you aware of reputations of teams and coaches like this and how do you call those games.

 

[outside!]

Your wife is a wise woman.

 

[Mystery Train]

There is less tension along the North Korean border than the sidelines of just about any U10 Bronze league game. Every foul is attempted murder and every goal is treated like the winner in a WC final. I really don't miss those days.

 

[coachrefparent]

We played a much bigger team this year and at the time of our first game facing each other we were both undefeated in a bronze division. We scored two quick goals within the first five minutes against them and what happened after those two quick goals was astounding. Someone on our team who understood their language (not Spanish) heard the other opposing coach said go after the little forward and take him out. Slide tackles from the back, push from the back, and shoulder to the chest started to happen. Not a single foul was called over the next 10 minutes even after so many pleads from the coaches. Ref just didn't care. The little forward got back up right away every single time as he doesn't believe in flopping (he now does LOL). Then our parents started to get agitated as tough plays were started to happen to other players. Keep in mind that these are 07 boys so they are like 9 and 10 years old so some of them started to be afraid (can't blame them) and they ended up taking the lead before the half ended.

After half time, tough plays were still happening and the little forward along with his best buddy on the team just had it with the tough plays and fouled back prompting the opposing sides' parents to yell. Then our parents yelled back telling them to sit down and watch the game. One said how you like them apples or something to that effect. The back and forth actually went on for a good portion of the game so you would have thought the ref would put a stop to it but he just kept on going without blowing a whistle. Our coach told us to calm down but at that point, it was just too late. We ended up losing 5-2 or 6-2 because our team got so dinged up and quite frankly they were afraid. In hindsight, we should have just left and forfeited (and that's what we agreed to do in the future).

We didn't leave for 30 minutes because our coach was giving our kids (who were crying at that time) a prep talk. Because of the yelling from our side when their kids were fouled by our kids, those parents actually waited (for 30 minutes) and confronted us in the parking lot. Their coach got into with the parents too after one of us call him out on his intention to hurt our boys. Luckily, one of our parent said the cops were called and those guys scattered like cockroaches. Our coach, who has been in the business for over 20 years, have never seen this. He's seen reckless plays, dirty plays, and careless plays, but nothing like these boys were doing.

That was the first game. We actually had a second game left at our home field. Because of what happened, we asked our club to get three refs and get some security. We got two refs and no security (wasn't really expecting security, but we thought it wouldn't hurt to ask). Some of the parents who were in the parking lot scuffle were told to stay home to avoid running into those parents again. Our team manager told the refs what happened in the first game and asked them to please call the games tight even if we are doing the ticky tact fouls. You would have thought it went better? Nope. Again, we scored first. Again, fouls started to happened. But this time the refs started to call fouls. However, the fouls got harder and harder as the refs called for more fouls, and the refs had to stop the game a few time to tell the other coach to calm down. Except for the fouls, that was actually a good game. It was tied 2-2 until 3 minutes left when they scored what ended up to be the game winning goal. It actually was a good goal as the kid half volleyed it in. Kid celebrated like CR7 (of course he did LOL)....but guess what one of the parents went out to the field and celebrated with the kid picking him up and ran across the pitch. The center ref threw him out but he didn't leave the field. He went to the entrance which was like 30 yards away. Once the final whistle blow, that same parent took off his shirt and started running toward the field waving his shirt around. Our coach started to confront the coach and said that it was uncalled for and that parent actually threatened our coach. He along with another dad waited outside the entrance, but again, one of our dads told those two to scram because police was called. Needless to say they left, but as they were walking out, they were chanting XX (our club name) sucks, XX are P-word. It took me great restraint not to go apeshit on those two.

I have a video of that fool celebrating and running around celebrating as if he won the world cup but i wont post it anywhere. I really want to shame him on the internet but my wife talked me out of it as both team's kids faces were fairly clear. I understand OP's frustration and the reason for the post. We actually saw one of their state cup game from afar and the same dirty plays happened. Fouls were called and their coach and parents got into with the refs. Dont know what happened next as our game were starting.

My question to the refs in this community, are you aware of reputations of teams and coaches like this and how do you call those games.

Wow this is an incredible story. What language did the coach and players speak that only a person on your team understood? Where did this occur that there was only 1 referee? What league? What kind of people allow this to happen (on both sides)?

 

[SSJSG UI]

Wow this is an incredible story. What language did the coach and players speak that only a person on your team understood? Where did this occur that there was only 1 referee? What league? What kind of people allow this to happen (on both sides)?

I'd rather not say the language nor the location the games were because it might give it away and our team doesn't want any trouble from those guys. It's a CSL bronze game so one ref is common and we play in LA County, not OC. I'd like to think that the emotion got the best of our side because many of the parents are fairly even tempered. Even the most level-headed dad who is normally quiet was outraged and started to yell as our kids were getting tripped left and right. That's the reason why we told those who were involved in the parking lot scuffule to stay home in the second game to prevent further escalation..but that didn't happen. The team manager told us afterwards that the refs thought we were just working them and exaggerated things. In hindsight, can't blame the refs either cause every time I talked about this other coaches or refs, their jaws dropped. I think those guys will eventually be beaten easily when kids who are fundamentally and technically sound starting to grow.

 

[SSJSG UI]

Your wife is a wise woman.

That's why i married her. Haha

 

[SSJSG UI]

There is less tension along the North Korean border than the sidelines of just about any U10 Bronze league game. Every foul is attempted murder and every goal is treated like the winner in a WC final. I really don't miss those days.

Agreed. After that first game, all the parents were more "chilled" and relaxed.