I didn't, its point two above.
SCDSL adding Discovery Division
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I didn't, its point two above.
Desert Hound
DA
We even start training in August. It is a bit warm. But I tell you what, when us parents sit in the shade and have a drink I think we all survive just nicely. We make comments every now and then how the kids look a bit sweaty...but then we laugh and have another drink.
El Clasico
GOLD
Does this mean that SCDSL will allow a club to register teams in the Discovery league without having to bring all their teams over to "play in the lower divisions"? Or is it the same thing?
Not_that_Serious
GOLD
yes in a sense. think its the quickest way to try an implement something that gets leagues playing each other. im not a fan of limiting things to just one group. this wouldnt strengthen play from top to bottom in the leagues. for the interim, maybe this could be a first step. i doubt it would happen considering the politics and difference in philosophies involved. i talked to some flight1 coaches and felt as I did - promotes elitism. asked who gets in? who doesnt? brought up the point, as I did, no pro/rel in SCDS: so teams that dont perform well will always be included since they cant drop out - not like teams dont ever blow up. most said traveling to Norco every week isnt optimal since most dont solely coach the 1 or 2 elite teams in their clubs - nor do they want to. Bigger clubs have certain coaches training a couple top tier teams and dont deal with lower flights or even flight1 teams. Smaller clubs arent set up this way and coaches train all levels. Traveling would limit ability to coach more than a couple teams - with them for sure missing other team games. One coach has an entire age group (three teams) and has a team that would qualify for the circuit - but getting out to Norco would guarantee he would miss at least one game a week. He would have to drop a team and co-manage the age group. Not all clubs can afford to keep the coach's pay the same while picking up the cost of another coach training the team he dropped. From those who dont manage, coach or do any admin work, sounds like a decent idea. Some teams have kids who are on scholarship, one coach had at least 4 kids on scholarship and extra cost has to come from somewhere. Im sure some clubs will just hike the fees up and market it as some type of pre/reserve/almost there Academy. From admin side, causes a host of issues - some of it due to money. Which adds more to the have vs have-not system. Then we start getting into discussion of trying to field the best teams/talent (this after all is to promote development right?) or is this just another animal for clubs to make $
Not_that_Serious
GOLD
im sure other leagues would be fine with top teams leaving to play in another league. also, im sure SCDSL wants to promote teams they have within their own league. I dont see teams from outside coming in. Could be incorrect but looks like SCDSL teams only.
Good question.
The story we got from CSL is that if they let our team into Premier, that would mean not admitting a team that dozens of teams playing CSL lower divisions, so we would have to move in that direction.
I can’t see combined leagues happening due to politics. Even getting CSL and SCDSL to participate in one combined top division would be difficult, but IMO it just has to be done to stop the dilution of talent. I think combined divisions or leagues in lower flights is not important because there’s no talent to dilute, you can find mediocre bronze teams everywhere.
The first couple of years there’s going to be teams that don’t belong but that’s why I said there has to be promotion/relegation, so that worst teams get dropped and deserving teams that didn’t get in at the initial round get a shot.
The smaller teams just have to appoint an elite team coach who trains 2 or 3 elite teams in different age groups, so he can do one trip for all his teams.
Simisoccerfan
PREMIER
Pipe dream
Not_that_Serious
GOLD
the attitude most people take is what you expressed - a belief talent below flight 1 level isnt important. which i and many dont feel is true.
A) kids dont become upper level talent through wishing. They need to be developed. focus is on fastest and strongest kids. you see this all the way up to sr usnmt. its a philosophy that comes all the way from the top to the bottom levels. This is why we are so far behind in soccer compared to most of the world.
B) The Elite team coaching staff ties into the same belief system. Talk to most of these coaches and its almost like its beneath them to even touch even a non DA or ECNL or Premier team. You can google the statistics (or search twitter) and see where kids who are on the National teams come from - a handful of kids coming out of these programs in the area. You have to start from the bottom and increase the talent pool via development. We are too worried about ulittles but we still have to wait until kids hit mid-teens to see how they will be physically - before then, should worry more about technical issues. Hard to do when club system is setup to be mercenary. I understand its hard to develop kids at lower levels, but good coaches have the ability to do that - most might even enjoy it
A.PT2) You can find medicore teams from ECNL to Flight 1 to Bronze/Flight 3. Kids have to start somewhere. Never seen a kid roll off the playground on to a top flight team. They can have the physical tools but need a place to figure out speed of play and learn how to play. Have kids at flight 1 and elite teams who still run in straight lines and think soccer is smash, take ball, go forward, lose ball, go win ball, repeat cycle. Regardless of leagues are selling, development isnt the focus. Creating talent takes time. See kids rolling into flight 3 and getting into good flight 1 teams in 2-3 years. That isnt a bad window of time. If we ignored those kids/teams, we limit our player pool potential. Again, part of why we have national soccer issues. If you get to kids early enough, the window leads into teen years, where kids level out. We put too much emphasis on u11, u12,u13 but these kids havent hit there physical maturity. Should be making sure their technical ability is maximized vs worrying about flights. Improve play down to bottom will only improve higher levels of play - which I think everyone has agreed can be poor.
Given all that. Yes their is obvious advantage of playing the best competition. Just have to make sure all the teams playing one another are the top teams - and have ability to remove poor performing teams. Also needs to be initiatives to improve lower flight play. Removing the best comp from flight 1 will have a consequence. I just believe you cant focus on one group, with most coaches wanting an entire team of "great" players. Given the limits of the talent pool, you often have to create good players. wish there was a good solution. think there is as we have discussed, but I agree, money and politics get in the way.
You need a certain very high base level of athleticism to be a legitimate academy player. If you take a bunch of OK athletes and train them up you will end up with a below average flight 1 team. Not That Serious approach seems to be cast a wide net and train all the kids, and the wider net will catch more elite kids. The problem with that approach is that there are limited numbers of quality coaches, and frankly it’s a waste of the best coaches time to train kids with low ceilings.
IMO the level of coaching has to, on avg., get a lot better before you can take “cast the wide net” approach. There are so many crap coaches out there, the few good coaches have to be assigned to the best players.
IMO the level of coaching has to, on avg., get a lot better before you can take “cast the wide net” approach. There are so many crap coaches out there, the few good coaches have to be assigned to the best players.
Not_that_Serious
GOLD
I dont agree with the assessment they have to be very high level athletic. Athletic yes, but elite? Also hard to measure the quality. I wouldnt put a lot of professional defenders and even some mids in that category.
You are 100% on the need for better coaches, but some of these coaches with the resumes cant coach a lick either. Dont think anyone can argue against that. As far as a waste of time, that is up to personal philosophy. Guess it also depends on figuring who the best coaches are. Also have to factor in what is getting taught. Thats another rabbit hole.
So you are of the mind that they don't need to be athletic to be a high level athlete?
That's not what he said. Correct me if I'm wrong here NTS, but believe you are saying that hyper athletes are not the answer to US Soccer's problems and lack of competitiveness on the international stage.So you are of the mind that they don't need to be athletic to be a high level athlete?
A certain level in the key athletic qualities (size, speed, agility, strength, stamina, etc...) are necessary to be an elite pro/int'l level soccer player, but the sport is more art than science. So much of the game is about the 6-inches between the ears. I do think you need to be "athletic enough" to execute and I believe every position requires a different baseline of each of those attributes. What would be considered "enough" is the real debate here. I know I don't have the answer.
Let me give you a real world example. My son’s 03 academy team had the best technical coach in the club, except for the director. His team was filled with a bunch of highly athletic, flashy skilled, technically deficient in passing/receiving, stupid, selfish players. This coach did an incredible job fixing a lot of the stupid and the passing/receiving skills. He couldn’t fix the selfish and there was a certain level of residual stupid.
The club then moved him to the 04s, who were all right footed only, high soccer IQ, ok speed, no size or strength, great touch, great at passing and moving.
Both teams ended up sucking. The difference was that the 2 or 3 special athletes on the 03s, after getting coached by a top notch coach, were playing great. Nobody was playing great on the 04s. The 04s were losing because they had no talent that could win them games, they’d spin the ball around until a top athlete on the other team stripped them and shredded their D. The 03s lost because the few special athletes couldn’t score enough goals to make up for the giveaways of the donkeys on the team who were under the illusion they were good because there was an academy patch on their shirt.
Result, just about the entire 04 team was cut. They were a waste of time and coaching resources. About half the 03 team was cut.
I completely disagree with your democratic approach. There are a limited number of top coaches, there are limited number of top teams, there are limited number of spots on top teams. Elite coaches and players should be together. Elite coaches can’t turn average into great. Mixing donkey and superstars leads to a losing team.
ECNL teams wouldn't necessarily need to leave that circuit. SCDSL could give them credit for local ECNL games against the other ECNL-SCDSL teams as if they were SCDSL Discovery division games. Then they'd just have to find time to play the non-ECNL teams in Discovery (admittedly difficult depending on how many teams are involved). ECNL teams play non-ECNL teams all the time in tournaments. So it seems at least possible.
Not_that_Serious
GOLD
part of what i was getting at. some kids can be athletic but cant fix stupid and selfish. there are also kids who are athletic but gas out in 30 mins. a kid might not be able to jump out the gym but can run like horse all day. listened to a discussion about "mexican style" soccer online yesterday and discussion goes a similar route. often its a matter of what the coach values and what they need for the style they play. things like fixing passing/receiving should be something any competent coach should be able to fix - we do agree not all coaches are competent.
in the end picking teams and placing the kids isnt democratic - it shouldnt be. im not saying mix flight1 kids and train them with bronze level teams. im just not of the opinion that you cant find great/good coaches outside of DA/ECNL/Premier or this new circuit or find kids that can make their way up a properly structured dev system. These circuits arent the end-all in soccer or development. Many times its politics and about writing the check. So yes, youll get the kids who shouldnt be playing at the correct level. Ive never said promote kids to levels they shouldnt be in. Im saying we need to look at the system as a whole from bottom up. Too much emphasis on top down. Cant improve talent pull with this approach.
Truth is many of the academies and teams in these systems want it closed off as much as possible in order for their flaws or lack of quality isnt seen. For instance, my friend put his flight1 team in one of the big tournaments - requested to be placed in division with academy teams. They ended up putting the team down at flight2 ( didnt concede a goal and scored 20+ goals, didnt help anyone improve). Instead the host club stuck pre-academy teams in and even their own flight1. They all got hammered. Same team wiped the floor with "pre-academy" teams who practiced 4x a week to beat them and ended up getting killed. Same team who had been playing flight2 as two separate teams this time last year. To me its about progression, and true development. Hard to balance wins/losses vs development. Some coaches good at winning but doesnt mean kids are progressing in development. Best example of who balances this idea is Hugo Perez. I think he is an "elite" coach but his teams would get spanked and he wouldnt give a crap. Was about getting kids to where they need to go and he tried to get US Soccer to understand it but they didnt share his philosophy. Can talk to ODP coaches who have kids on their teams, leave for DA teams and come back to ODP - coaches who also coach kids at all levels of play. We can find examples to show our points but all the systems have flaws. What we suggested makes more sense, but the sensible people dont make decisions in the US Soccer landscape.
Not_that_Serious
GOLD
yep another person who likes just putting words in people's mouths. Id take a kid with 120mins of stamina and works hard vs the lazy kid with great speed, can jump through a roof but gases by halftime. One of my friends kid can run all game, can kick like a donkey but runs around with no purpose. So the kid doesnt play at flight1 - have to keep him at flight 2 until he can learn how be more thoughtful. again, depends on what coaches want for positions. my kid would LOVE to play attacking CM or wing but doesnt because he doesnt have speed - he plays as a pivot because he has good technical skill and can get things moving forward. im not unrealistic, but we need to more inclusive (with merit) vs being more separated.
futboldad1
PREMIER
Not_that_Serious
GOLD
lol, forgot about pirlo. messi's height would have limited his opps here in the us as well - especially with his medical condition
we all have different opinion and what we value. at lower age levels having the fastest biggest guy work, but hasnt translated at highest levels. US Soccer is still trying to push Zardes as a success story.