Santiago vs Harvard-Westlake D1 High school semi-final Ref issue

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Set me straight. Isn't typical guidance for off field dissent to Ask, Tell, Dismiss. Is it different for High School? It sounds like the ref went straight to Dismiss. I can see skipping Ask, but going straight to Dismiss seems very heavy handed and potentially an abuse of power. I don't know what was said and I don't condone obscenities screamed at refs and particularly youth players, but it seems very disruptive to the players and the game to eject an entire sideline for a few bad actors. Was the delay and disruption worth it to prove a point?

The ref only owes an explanation to the CIF, but then he goes on social media to bad mouth a parent. If he wants to file a complaint he should with the CIF, but there is something unsavory about trying this parent in the court of public opinion first. It seems that if he can out a parent on social media he could disclose what was said that required dismissing an entire stand full of parents.

I don't know the facts and I very well could be wrong, but something in addition to parent behavior doesn't smell right to me.

ASK, Tell, Dismiss is the guidelines they tell us to use on coaches. They do not technically have to apply to spectators. We have responsibilities to the game and its players, none for fans.

I have had coaches ask me before when I kick out a parent "Don't they get a warning?" I say, "Warnings are for players and coaches". Parents attendance is a privilege and not a right.

As for disrupting the game, in high school, the clock is start/stop, not additional time. Therefore, the kids don't miss a single second of game time. If your argument is that they may need to stretch and loosen up a bit before the game restarts again, that is kind of a stretch to call "disruptive". No more disruptive than hearing a parent tell your opponent "If he is not going to call that, do the same to her".

As for the Public opinion complaint 2 things:
1. This was made in a private referee group of only referees. Hardly "the public"
2. How is it NOT "trying the [referee] in the court of public opinion" to complain to a reporter with 1 side of the story. That news article had far more reach than a social media post.

 

[baldref]

I think refs kick out parents directly just to take out the middle man. I do not HAVE to go through the coaches, I choose to do so. I like the message it sends.

The semantics are what gives the ref authority to kick out a parent. They asked what the rationale was. Not everyone has to do it the way I do it.

As long as the results are that the game is safe and fair for the players, and, follows protocol that would be supported by your admins, it's all good.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I cant believe this thread is still going on.

Also I cant believe the number of negative posts against the refs.

Players and coaches got to finish the game.

The only group "hurt" by the refs decision was parents who are miffed b/c they "drove 2 hours to watch a game". What a bunch of entitled babies. Seriously, get over it + move on.

 

[SFR]

I cant believe this thread is still going on.
Also I cant believe the number of negative posts against the refs .........

I also can't believe this thread is still going on. But, in farness to all those parents who were sent away due to one or a few offenders, I have to say that dismissing entire sideline is way to much. I am a ref and a parent. I am not claiming to be a perfect ref or a parent. As a ref I've seen bad behavior coming from coaches or parents and as a parent I've seen bad/horrible calls or no calls coming from refs side, which brings the worst human reaction coming from coaches, parents, and players. I am not here defending refs or parents but I still think that a referee decision to send off entire sideline is way over-reacting. For those who call this move ok and saying it's a lesson for parents is like are you serious? Is it like you have a bad finger and doctor decides to cut the entire hand without tying to treat the finger 1st? Let's imagine, hypatetecly, central referee made a bad call for something and upon review it was determined that it was a wrong call and then referee completely messed up the whole game. And because of that entire referee crew should be punished and not allowed to do games along with ref assignor to be punished for allowing that ref to sign up for a game. Probably, those who defends ref decision would say it's to much and it's overkill.

 

[Frank]

Ask, Tell, Dismiss is the normal operating procedure unless the offender chooses the nuclear option. We all know what that is. Not saying that’s the case here but it could have been.

The pre playoff instructions was that there was zero

I also can't believe this thread is still going on. But, in farness to all those parents who were sent away due to one or a few offenders, I have to say that dismissing entire sideline is way to much. I am a ref and a parent. I am not claiming to be a perfect ref or a parent. As a ref I've seen bad behavior coming from coaches or parents and as a parent I've seen bad/horrible calls or no calls coming from refs side, which brings the worst human reaction coming from coaches, parents, and players. I am not here defending refs or parents but I still think that a referee decision to send off entire sideline is way over-reacting. For those who call this move ok and saying it's a lesson for parents is like are you serious? Is it like you have a bad finger and doctor decides to cut the entire hand without tying to treat the finger 1st? Let's imagine, hypatetecly, central referee made a bad call for something and upon review it was determined that it was a wrong call and then referee completely messed up the whole game. And because of that entire referee crew should be punished and not allowed to do games along with ref assignor to be punished for allowing that ref to sign up for a game. Probably, those who defends ref decision would say it's to much and it's overkill.

cif was very clear before playoffs that this type of incident had a zero tolerance policy for everyone involved. a Significant point of emphasis. I don’t know if I would have cleared a sideline, but I can guarantee you someone would be leaving.

what you describe as your hypothetical scenario is just another Sunday.

 

[baldref]

Is it like you have a bad finger and doctor decides to cut the entire hand without tying to treat the finger 1st?

No, it's not like that at all.

 

[espola]

So far in this discussion, I like best the "I'm not choosy, pick one" method.

 

[Giesbock]

I wasn’t there. I don’t know the nuances of rules that govern the situation. It’s over and done. But I do know that a serial, ref abusing loudmouth was there. And I’m sure he wasn’t sitting watching quietly…

 

[Toch]

I think "accept everything the ref says/does" is a ridiculous expectation. I've done some coaching , some ref'ing and I'm also a parent. I've seen a lot of terrible refs and poorly ref'd games. The game is fast, and I 100% understand that calls are missed-- I can live with that. What I really find troubling is the lack of game management by referees that jeopardizes player safety. I see this frequently. Refs are simply reluctant to give yellow cards. As an example, last weekend at National Cup, we had a ref crew that failed to card several out of control players who where throwing elbows and executing dangerous tackles (playing the player first, and the ball second). The refs have an obligation to keep players safe. So when this isn't happening, I am going to say something.

Sounds like another parent who goes to watch their beloved child who never does anything wrong/bad on the pitch. Just because the ref crew didn’t help you win the game doesn’t make them terrible

 

[Toch]

Then the other sideline should have been tossed as well. When there are subjective terms like this, all goes to hell. I don't have the video but if you watch it, you can see the other coach running up and down the sideline during a few calls. Why is that ok? I'm claiming that no one in the game should have been thrown out but refs need to be fair. He obviously thought we were worse and I say "why"?

Referees don’t need to consult anyone to determine if he heard what he heard. Perhaps you should take some ownership in the action that lead to the reaction of having the whole fan base kicked out. Saying parents would never say something like that does not help your case at all. I’ve seen whole sidelines cleared. The number of people is inconsequential. Say stupid things win stupid prizes. T

 

[Toch]

I think "accept everything the ref says/does" is a ridiculous expectation. I've done some coaching , some ref'ing and I'm also a parent. I've seen a lot of terrible refs and poorly ref'd games. The game is fast, and I 100% understand that calls are missed-- I can live with that. What I really find troubling is the lack of game management by referees that jeopardizes player safety. I see this frequently. Refs are simply reluctant to give yellow cards. As an example, last weekend at National Cup, we had a ref crew that failed to card several out of control players who where throwing elbows and executing dangerous tackles (playing the player first, and the ball second). The refs have an obligation to keep players safe. So when this isn't happening, I am going to say something.

Sounds like another parent who goes to watch their beloved child who never does anything wrong/bad on the pitch. Just because the ref crew didn’t help you win the game doesn’t make them terrible

 

[Eagle33]

ASK, Tell, Dismiss is the guidelines they tell us to use on coaches. They do not technically have to apply to spectators. We have responsibilities to the game and its players, none for fans.

I have had coaches ask me before when I kick out a parent "Don't they get a warning?" I say, "Warnings are for players and coaches". Parents attendance is a privilege and not a right.

As for disrupting the game, in high school, the clock is start/stop, not additional time. Therefore, the kids don't miss a single second of game time. If your argument is that they may need to stretch and loosen up a bit before the game restarts again, that is kind of a stretch to call "disruptive". No more disruptive than hearing a parent tell your opponent "If he is not going to call that, do the same to her".

As for the Public opinion complaint 2 things:
1. This was made in a private referee group of only referees. Hardly "the public"
2. How is it NOT "trying the [referee] in the court of public opinion" to complain to a reporter with 1 side of the story. That news article had far more reach than a social media post.

How nice of you taking conversation from a private group and posting it on public forum - you deserve some kind of recognition for this.
As far as sending sideline off, it's absolutely ridiculous thing to do. There is a simple solution - make a coach responsible for sideline behavior. All referee had to do is talk to the coach about it and let coach deal with it. If not, coach gets a caution and if it continues, coach gets send off. Do that next time and you'll see how quickly sideline behavior will change.

 

[soccer dude]

How nice of you taking conversation from a private group and posting it on public forum - you deserve some kind of recognition for this.
As far as sending sideline off, it's absolutely ridiculous thing to do. There is a simple solution - make a coach responsible for sideline behavior. All referee had to do is talk to the coach about it and let coach deal with it. If not, coach gets a caution and if it continues, coach gets send off. Do that next time and you'll see how quickly sideline behavior will change.

Now this is the smartest thing I've heard on this forum. As a coach many years ago, I was warned exactly as "Eagle33" points out, and as a result, I ran to the parents and told them to shut up. Worked like a charm.

 

[watfly]

How nice of you taking conversation from a private group and posting it on public forum - you deserve some kind of recognition for this.

The best part was the irony of his response went completely over his head.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

I'm 99.72% certain soccer dude has selective hearing loss issues.

After our game Saturday, the coach's wife and mom of the goalkeeper came up to me after the game and mentioned she heard someone on our sidelines say "get their ankles". We know each other from playing against each other in a friendly adult league. She told me she just wanted me to know, and knew I wasn't cool with that (she was right). I mentioned it to a few parents, and they all swore, SWORE, they did not hear that, and no way it could be true. The next day, come to find out, it was said by a young kid, and his mom tore him up for it immediately.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

So far in this discussion, I like best the "I'm not choosy, pick one" method.

I will start using this approach from now on when the things I hear are bad enough. I love it.

 

[soccer dude]

I'm 99.72% certain soccer dude has selective hearing loss issues.

After our game Saturday, the coach's wife and mom of the goalkeeper came up to me after the game and mentioned she heard someone on our sidelines say "get their ankles". We know each other from playing against each other in a friendly adult league. She told me she just wanted me to know, and knew I wasn't cool with that (she was right). I mentioned it to a few parents, and they all swore, SWORE, they did not hear that, and no way it could be true. The next day, come to find out, it was said by a young kid, and his mom tore him up for it immediately.

I appreciate the response but what does that have anything to do with my original post? So, are you saying the ref threw us all out because some kid said "get their ankles"? First, I don't even know what that means and second, how would any ref put any value on that very mild statement? And third, I did not hear (and from what you said no one else did either) any of this and I was on the 50.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

I appreciate the response but what does that have anything to do with my original post? So, are you saying the ref threw us all out because some kid said "get their ankles"? First, I don't even know what that means and second, how would any ref put any value on that very mild statement? And third, I did not hear (and from what you said no one else did either) any of this and I was on the 50.

My story was about a different game than yours, sorry for the confusion you are having. My point was that most parents are so clueless they don't even admit to hearing something that did happen, or believe their precious sideline could be guilty of said crime. That kid in my story did say something, the other team's parents heard it, yet some of ours swear that could never happen.