Santiago vs Harvard-Westlake D1 High school semi-final Ref issue
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soccer dude
SILVER ELITE
No, I've tried but CIF has monopolized the video. Nowhere to be found. I'll keep trying.
soccer dude
SILVER ELITE
I usually don't give kudos to refs and I never hear the good stuff about refs but tonight I watched a very well ref'd game by our Santiago boys championship DII CIF game in Aliso against Aliso. I very much appreciate a good ref'd game, don't you? Even though we lost, I want to give a shout-out to the refs. Here's why.
1) There was a clearing of the benches during a scuffle and the refs not only intervened at the right moments (physically getting in between piles of boys), they had the game moving forward in 30 seconds. Amazing.
2) 4 or so yellow cards to manage the dangerousness of the game. It was starting to become dangerous up until the yellow cards were displayed. Again, wonderful work to keep the game safe.
3) Not one injury in the entire game. Amazing for a championship boys game. Way to keep the game safe and injury free.
4) Both coaches were yelling at the refs over questionable calls (they got it right imo) and the ref walked over and spoke to both of them at different times. The ref firmly held his ground with good hand gestures. Both coaches were calm afterwards and never posed additional threats to the ref. Again, great job calming coaches during this very heated battle.
5) Lastly, the Ref never got hit with the ball. How many of us have been nailed in fast-paced games. His athleticism showed as he pulled some Matrix moves several times not to interfere with momentum.
So, whoever you refs are, GOOD JOB! I hope we get you for our upcoming regional games.
1) There was a clearing of the benches during a scuffle and the refs not only intervened at the right moments (physically getting in between piles of boys), they had the game moving forward in 30 seconds. Amazing.
2) 4 or so yellow cards to manage the dangerousness of the game. It was starting to become dangerous up until the yellow cards were displayed. Again, wonderful work to keep the game safe.
3) Not one injury in the entire game. Amazing for a championship boys game. Way to keep the game safe and injury free.
4) Both coaches were yelling at the refs over questionable calls (they got it right imo) and the ref walked over and spoke to both of them at different times. The ref firmly held his ground with good hand gestures. Both coaches were calm afterwards and never posed additional threats to the ref. Again, great job calming coaches during this very heated battle.
5) Lastly, the Ref never got hit with the ball. How many of us have been nailed in fast-paced games. His athleticism showed as he pulled some Matrix moves several times not to interfere with momentum.
So, whoever you refs are, GOOD JOB! I hope we get you for our upcoming regional games.
Lodan36
BRONZE
From what I was told by a Santiago parent was that a player dribbled out of the endline then dribbled back in...line ref raised the flag for a corner...meanwhile play continued and a foul was committed in the box and center ref called for a penalty...so line ref lowered his flag when center ref didn't see him...and all the commotion was to get the center ref to look at the line ref to go back to the corner kick...line ref decided he was going to bow his head and not say a word....so screaming and unfortunately abusive language was used..
justneededaname
SILVER ELITE
Parent sideline ejected. Bench clearing scuffle. You all really know how to make a guy look forward to their visit to Santiago on Saturday. Crossing my fingers for a good ref crew.
In addition of hope for a good ref crew how about to work with parents and coaches to explain them that missing calls even that could lead to a goal won't end the world. Compare bad call(s) with some tragic events like the death of a relative, close friend or a home pet. Explain them that it's OK to be unhappy and it's OK to express it with some load screaming but it's not OK to loose control over it and start inexcusable behavior
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
I have the other side here. and this is the link: Harvard-Westlake girls soccer tops Santiago in drama-filled Division 1 semifinal – Press Enterprise (pe.com)
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
And... the Update:
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
All right. My two cents on the incident.
1. This guy has been in this referee group for a while, he is respected... so, I believe him when he says he has never kicked out a sideline before. As for the other stuff, that is a he said she said situation. I can't make a judgment on that.
2. Does the referee have the authority to remove a parent.... or a sideline by extrapolation? The answer is: sort of.
The referee only has jurisdiction over the soccer game, that means everything inside the touchlines and the technical areas. He has no technical power over a parent, who is a free person not subject to the whims of another in America. However, what a referee can do is stop the game (which he has authority over) and refuse to resume officiating the game until he gets what he wants. If it seems no one will comply with his request, then he can walk off the field, thereby ending the game officially. He would then be required to send a report to his association/assignor for his reasons. For the most part, the association will back up the referee as long as states he has a legitimate cause.
I have personally kicked out only a handful of parents myself. I refuse to address the parents, look them in eye or their general direction, or generally acknowledge their existence. When I kicked them out I stopped the game, told the coach I would not resume until a parent was removed. "Which parent" they asked 1 time. I said, "I'm not picky, choose one". (they were just being difficult, they knew which one). But I honestly didn't care. If they chose the wrong one but the sideline shut up, problem solved, if they chose the wrong one and the sideline didn't shut up, I would repeat the process until they kicked out the right one.
In conclusion, when is the last time you have seen an EPL referee point to some drunkard in the stand and go, "I want that one gone"
1. This guy has been in this referee group for a while, he is respected... so, I believe him when he says he has never kicked out a sideline before. As for the other stuff, that is a he said she said situation. I can't make a judgment on that.
2. Does the referee have the authority to remove a parent.... or a sideline by extrapolation? The answer is: sort of.
The referee only has jurisdiction over the soccer game, that means everything inside the touchlines and the technical areas. He has no technical power over a parent, who is a free person not subject to the whims of another in America. However, what a referee can do is stop the game (which he has authority over) and refuse to resume officiating the game until he gets what he wants. If it seems no one will comply with his request, then he can walk off the field, thereby ending the game officially. He would then be required to send a report to his association/assignor for his reasons. For the most part, the association will back up the referee as long as states he has a legitimate cause.
I have personally kicked out only a handful of parents myself. I refuse to address the parents, look them in eye or their general direction, or generally acknowledge their existence. When I kicked them out I stopped the game, told the coach I would not resume until a parent was removed. "Which parent" they asked 1 time. I said, "I'm not picky, choose one". (they were just being difficult, they knew which one). But I honestly didn't care. If they chose the wrong one but the sideline shut up, problem solved, if they chose the wrong one and the sideline didn't shut up, I would repeat the process until they kicked out the right one.
In conclusion, when is the last time you have seen an EPL referee point to some drunkard in the stand and go, "I want that one gone"
soccer dude
SILVER ELITE
It's funny how you try to defend yourself with "I have zero tolerance" but you never say what we actually said. If you're going to come on this forum and bad mouth our parents have some you-know-what to say what we said to warrant throwing 200 people out that drove 2 hours. You can't because we didn't and that's why the parents are standing in this photo the way they are. Because nothing was said dude. And to clear the air, did you ever consult the AR standing next to you on if he heard anything? As a ref myself I was reluctant to post this but I was/am frustrated having to leave a game after driving to LA traffic and doing nothing wrong.
baldref
GOLD
This is semantics, and not correct. A referee in a youth game obviously can remove parents, even in the stands at a high school game. And he / she will be supported by the administration that governs his / her actions.
Youth soccer is not EPL, and never will be. Laws and rules are very different from youth soccer to professional soccer.
Set me straight. Isn't typical guidance for off field dissent to Ask, Tell, Dismiss. Is it different for High School? It sounds like the ref went straight to Dismiss. I can see skipping Ask, but going straight to Dismiss seems very heavy handed and potentially an abuse of power. I don't know what was said and I don't condone obscenities screamed at refs and particularly youth players, but it seems very disruptive to the players and the game to eject an entire sideline for a few bad actors. Was the delay and disruption worth it to prove a point?
The ref only owes an explanation to the CIF, but then he goes on social media to bad mouth a parent. If he wants to file a complaint he should with the CIF, but there is something unsavory about trying this parent in the court of public opinion first. It seems that if he can out a parent on social media he could disclose what was said that required dismissing an entire stand full of parents.
I don't know the facts and I very well could be wrong, but something in addition to parent behavior doesn't smell right to me.
The ref only owes an explanation to the CIF, but then he goes on social media to bad mouth a parent. If he wants to file a complaint he should with the CIF, but there is something unsavory about trying this parent in the court of public opinion first. It seems that if he can out a parent on social media he could disclose what was said that required dismissing an entire stand full of parents.
I don't know the facts and I very well could be wrong, but something in addition to parent behavior doesn't smell right to me.
JumboJack
SILVER ELITE
Ask, Tell, Dismiss is the normal operating procedure unless the offender chooses the nuclear option. We all know what that is. Not saying that’s the case here but it could have been.
Since I'm not a ref, what's considered the nuclear option? Is it dropping an "f bomb" or "f bomb + insult". I can see a racist or homophobic slur being nuclear, or calling a woman the "C word". The ref only referred to obscenities, so I assume it wasn't a slur.
It's easy for me to Monday morning quarterback, but could he have asked the coach to ask the fans who was the one(s) that made the offensive remark, and if the fans wouldn't then eject the whole group.
From the article:
In the middle of the second half, center referee Brandon Will stopped play and ordered the Santiago fans to clear the stands. He told Santiago coach Mike Fleming he heard obscenities from the visiting fans.
“In my 22 years I’ve never seen anything like that before,” Fleming said. “The official allowed his ego to get in the way. He said someone called him gay from our stands. For him to accuse our fans of that is ludicrous.”
“The assistant ref didn’t hear anything, none of our families heard anything, but the center ref is saying someone used the F-word and used an off-color epitaph against him,” said Dana Potts, a father for one of Santiago’s players.
In the middle of the second half, center referee Brandon Will stopped play and ordered the Santiago fans to clear the stands. He told Santiago coach Mike Fleming he heard obscenities from the visiting fans.
“In my 22 years I’ve never seen anything like that before,” Fleming said. “The official allowed his ego to get in the way. He said someone called him gay from our stands. For him to accuse our fans of that is ludicrous.”
“The assistant ref didn’t hear anything, none of our families heard anything, but the center ref is saying someone used the F-word and used an off-color epitaph against him,” said Dana Potts, a father for one of Santiago’s players.
Thanks. Missed the slur part.
outside!
DA
A few years ago at Silverlakes, we were waiting for the game before ours to finish on one of the fields whose sideline borders a parking lot. A group of parents for that game were being pretty belligerent, but the ref seemed to be ignoring them. One of the parents yelled "f*&^ing (insert English slang word for cigarette)". Ref blows whistle, walks over to sideline, loudly says "Gay lives matter too" and dismissed that group of parents from the sideline. Our group of parents starts laughing and applauds the ref".
baldref
GOLD
Ask, tell, dismiss used to be the accepted guidance for coach behavior. With yellow being allowed for coaches now, it's not the guidance anymore. You get fed up with what a coach is saying, you card him, whatever color you deem apporiopriate. When it comes to dealing with parents, it's completely discretionary on removing them. I agree that to take that action there needs to be a very over the top comment. Either racial, homophobic, or seriously foul language, or calling out a youth, etc.... Definition of foul language can be different from person to person.
As none of us heard what this referee heard, and the only report was that he said he was called "gay", it's all hypothetical as to what happened. I seem to usually side with the experienced referee in hypothetical. Go figure....
Years of experience also play into that. I have heard outrageous crap flying off the sidelines.
As for the referee posting about it on social.... Poor move there to be sure.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
Read my 2 cents comment. I am not the referee in question, just someone that knows him on Facebook. Secondly, if you read my 2nd point, a referee can dismiss a sideline for basically any reason. If he in theory said, "I kicked them out because they were annoying"... that is within their power. It's just the assignor would look at him a little differently, but to be honest, it would not change that much.
I remember the 1st couple of weeks of Covid High School Soccer where some schools allowed 0 fans to watch. It was a really nice experience. There is an argument to just pre-emptively kick out all parents if you hear even 1 negative comment. We don't care how long you drove. A parent that flew 8 hours to see a game doesn't have more license to be obnoxious than a parent that had a 5 minute drive. You are all the same in our eyes.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
I think refs kick out parents directly just to take out the middle man. I do not HAVE to go through the coaches, I choose to do so. I like the message it sends.
The semantics are what gives the ref authority to kick out a parent. They asked what the rationale was. Not everyone has to do it the way I do it.