If you ever watched a solo CR game in SoCal league you would know it is probably the laziest job in the world. Also the potential for 100k is there. How many hours a referee wants to work, how efficient their travel to and from games is and what their eventual take home $$$ is, all depends on the individuals. As to lunatic parents yelling, that is also up to the referee on how they officiate they game. This is not to blame poor officiating, as people will always have their opinions, it is about learning how to filter noise and managing your crowd. I suggest you go to a league 1 or league 2 game in your england and see what abuse actually means. If you dont feel like travelling that far go to an NHL game and listen to the chants of ref you suck. Being able to distinguish between noise and actual hostility from the sidelines is a skill that most referee ignore to develop.
Sandbagging Fall League Teams
- Thread starter Rollonyoubears
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Those parents believe they are perfect so no matter what it wont change their perspective.
I would second that! And also... every coach who is coaching youth soccer sshould be required to ref at least ten games a year and play in at least one.
socaldad10
BRONZE
so they got $150 per game??
There's a difference between "should" and "is". The "is" is the economics of it all. If you want more quality people, you gotta pay them. Otherwise you've now given the 60 year old who monopolizes the U10 solo center games the excuse to hold onto them...ref shortage. The u10 older guy should be supervising the youngers anyway. But that means drastically upping the $$$ that goes to the pool.
I got to act as my son's supervising ref for AYSO. It took me out of the CR rotation which the assigning ref was frustrated about but it was the trade off of losing my 1 U12/U14 game but having him cover 3 U10 games. Having someone there he can run to ask a question or to run thru the check in process for him has been invaluable (not to mention that can run interference with the parents and give him feedback afterwards). 7 games in and he's ready to fly solo. Every new ref should have that benefit. New centers should be cutting their teeth in U10/U9 games, not reserved for geriatrics who are looking to preserve their payouts. New ARs should be learning in U11/U10 games, not U14 games with teenagers.
450 for 6 games. That's $75 per game.
Games started at 915 and the referees were asked to get there by 9am. All games were wrapped up 1pm. Looking at that hourly they made just under $60 per hour, however a full lunch was also provided for the referees and coaches on the field.
Now if you compare that to a regular job, in california you are only guaranteed 2x 10 minute break if you are working a full 8 hr shift alongwith with an additional 30 minutes lunch break. These refs worked 3x 50 minute games, 2 hours and 30 minutes total but were on the field for 4 hours. Which equates to 36 minutes break for every hour they worked plus a free lunch.
So yes you can say they didnt make the $60 per hour i claimed earlier or you could also say they made $90 per hour they actually worked.
If you want more quality people you have to start by setting a standard and holding those in place accountable. The economics of it would actually trend the other way and reduce the hourly. If the individuals couldnt monopolise the easy games and they were given out to the youth referees trying to cut the mustard there would be more opportunity and better officiating overall. Currently there are no expected standards because they are so low and parents/coaches/players would right yell at the ref than follow the tedious process of making sure the referees get the adequate training/sanction/termination (i am pretty sure you read the other ref thread). Until the sideline puts in the effort to force the change the right way the league/ref assigning body have no reason to change.
i have to say though i applaud your dedication to your son and making sure that he is both getting the direction as well as support he needs to grow in the sport. I dont know if i completely agree with your breakdown on the age groups and where to break in new refs. I can say that you can tell you have given it a fair amount of thought and in your case have a working scenario with your son to support as well. I believe i would rather have all referees looking to become a CR have completed at least 15 to 20 games as an AR if not more and then based on their performance and understanding of that position move to be given the opportunity to CR. Once that is done i believe new CRs should be starting out in u10/11 before moving to younger. The u10/11 parents have been around the block a bit and are less prone to out burst because little johhny fell down and the only one they can vent at is the ref. Also most leagues games dont have ARs until u13 when the games go 11 a side. ayso is different in that regard but not SoCal soccer league. i cannot personally comment a lot on the ayso ref system as my interaction/involvement with it has been minimal. I was unable to justify refereeing ayso in our region as i fundamentally disagreed with the head ref's directives and approach to how to referee the game.
Our little league (baseball) started doing this. While it hasn't wiped out the bad behavior, it has shifted things in the right direction. Overall, there's a better appreciation of what it's like to be on the other side of the fence.
Another option short of requiring folks to be a ref is to require parents to sit behind other parents at a game your kid isn't playing in. When you don't have a dog in the fight, its more eye-opening how some crazy parents can get.
Phoenix Soccer Dad
BRONZE
I invite you to check this out ...
It's a small sample size but nobody in the thread has reffing income anywhere near what you claim.
Is that because they aren't smart enough? Or because this isn't as lucrative as you think it is? Your supposed potential of $100K / year just isn't reality.
I appreciate the share and i am part of the reddit group. I invite you to look closely at the locations of the people that are sharing. Additionally the 100k potential is also based on working full time. Most of the individuals posting on that reddit are ones working as seasonal, part time and or hobbyist referees.
My posts and my numbers have repeatedly stated they are in reference to the group this forum is about - SoCal Soccer. I can quote ref fees from BFE where they make a dollar and buggar all for a 90 minute game but that DOESNT change what referees are being paid and making in Southern California, especially in the the Orange County area.
I also invite you to look at the below attached picture:
I underlined in red the area that i am talking about. Hopefully that helps clarify the potential. If you are going to come back to say ref's arent paid well, please share some actual facts or even anecdotes about the SoCal Soccer scene otherwise you point is moot. A no dont quote AYSO referees as its a volunteer position.
Furthermore, here are some facts from the reddit group you shared:
He is making 85 dollars a game and 10k a year working only December and Febraury. I can post the whole conversation if you have trouble finding it.
Here is another one working 2 season and less than 8 hours a week that makes 10k to 15k a year.
I can keep posting these all day long.
Hopefully, this helps you understand the difference between full time and part time work, along with the difference in ability to make (potential) X sum of money if you work full time vs part time.
He had completed 20 games as an AR. AYSO switched to allowing parents to AR their own non-championship games (each side can put forward an AR) under a neutral ref. Those parents have priority (so they can watch the kids play and have child care as a result instead of having to have their kids sit while they handle a game before/after). It's been VERY successful in getting parents to sign up (we don't have any begging for AR problems). We CRs rather have a parent who has gone through the training and a few games than a club linesman, and if they are partisan or we have problems they'll be told they can't use the privilege anymore and have to do their games elsewhere. So he was sort of forced into the CR role (even though he didn't want to do it) because that was the only way for him to get his hours since the AYSO parents have priority for those AR slots. Edited to add: best part of supervising has been I can supervise new ARs too by standing behind them and assisting with their questions so the AR benefits as well.
It's ridiculous that those younger than u13 don't have ARs. To start an AR at U13 is asking for trouble. They need to cut their teeth at U10 (where the build out line is in place) and then move up. We were told it was due (even before COVID) due to the referee shortage. But your information seems to indicate it's not just that-- it's some individuals jealously guarding their perogative to the heftier youngers fees they don't have to share for less running. That's just not right, but as always with youth soccer, the kid players are usually at the bottom of the priority list, after the clubs, Docs, coaches, referees, and parents.
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Phoenix Soccer Dad
BRONZE
All the snark and red highlights don't change the facts ... you're simply wrong here. And do you understand the difference between part time & full time? $85/game or $15K/year are reasonable amounts. How you extrapolate from there to a full time job is beyond me. There simply aren't enough games to generate the income you're talking about, even in Southern California.
I'm going to politely back out of this conversation. You are more than welcome to stay in your world where the average ref is 55 years old, makes $100K / year, and the laws of supply and demand don't apply. Best of luck reforming the U8 referee universe.
Any of us can post examples of refs making $10 - $15k. Because that's what refs make. Post someone making $100,000 per year and a link to how I sign up - like I asked you to do a week ago.
Its pretty much voluntary work, for refs with a day job, who earn a decent living, file taxes jointly, the games which are not cash on field, you are paying at least 50% taxes state and federal, minus costs, knocking yourself out for pretty much zero money.
So your choice is
-Kids 13-18 who don't have much experience at the game, or life. Struggling to manage the people side of a game, new to it. If they are any good, o once they get any good, they will move on
-Older refs who are doing it, essentially for free, to help the kids, or for exercise, and can do a decent job
-Over 60's , retirees, not as nimble as they once were, as mentioned
I think the middle demographic are the most desirable?
20 somethings with the necessary experience won't be doing kids games. They will have moved on to older players.
If a 30-55 year old ref, who has a decent job Mon-Fri is doing it, parents should be incredibly grateful because
a) they aren't doing it for the money,
b) they are the most likely to be good at it, of the population you are getting for kids games
c) they put up with a ton of hassle and abuse no matter how well they do
d) they are giving up their weekends and may well be missing out on time with their own children, or even their own children's games
e) Refereeing is not easy
If you are earning 100k+ during the week which a lot of parents in SoCal have to, otherwise they wouldn't be able to live there, $66 for giving up your Saturday morning isn't really the point, its a trivial amount of money, especially after costs (also not mentioned above by Topeswin is the fees taken by the assignors and the apps used for assigning games)
Referee work is seasonal. No one is getting games during the week, all year round. There are games occasionally Mon-Fri in the evenings, or afternoons but only a couple of months a year. Outside of fall, when there is a huge demand there are occasional tournaments and maybe high school games and all those referees who were working in the fall are competing for a fraction of the games that existed in fall so many lose out on the chance. Its not a full time gig, not even close, even in the fall.
Soccer is year round in SoCal with games everyday of the week available. Adult, youth and college intramural there are more than enough options. Again this is specifically for Southern California. In other states and countries yes it might be seasonal and the amount you make per game significantly lower but in SoCal you CAN earn 100k per year, however depending on where you live, 100k per year is below the poverty level.
SoCal Soccer League and many other tournaments in SoCal are ONLY CASH ON FIELD.
Mostly incorrect. The older refs over here are doing it because it is cushy, they have job security becuase of lack of oversight and the unwillingness of people to file complaints the correct way.
This is true but given the lack of oversight most of these guys sit in the center circle and never move out of it.
I can be grateful towards the ref if its a volunteer job and they are actually putting in the effort but it isnt except for AYSO.
Most refs in SoCal are doing it for the money or towards a future resume builder which is also essentially then for money
you can be good at something and still fail if you dont put in the effort. this is more often the case.
this can be said about any job.
that is a choice they are making to get paid. again different story if volunteer. this can be said about the parents with multiple kids, who go to only 1 child's game, the coaches who miss their own kids games or have coaching conflicts. that can be said about anyone who works weekends. at the end of the day it is a choice, they are not being forced to go out there.
Again so are a lot of jobs. However, a lot of these ref positions are cushy as explained and confirmed by others with first hand experience in SoCal Soccer league.
Its $66 per game, where they can stay at the same field for hours and get paid for multiple games.
Go sign up with CalSouth and other SoCal ref bodies and work SoCal Soccer League, Irvine Adult Leagues and College intramurals.