Recruiting Tips for Parents Just Starting the Process

I think the schools should be able to show the data w/o identifying players - X number of players at 100%, Y at 50%, Z at 10%, etc. But it creates an uncomfortable dynamic, and does not really help team cohesion, for players/parents to be asking "how much are you getting?" Unlike in the workplace, there is no collective benefit to knowing that that kid is on a full ride while that kid is getting 20% and the full ride kid can't compete while the 20% kid is carrying the team, especially given that most award decisions are made before players step foot on campus (and, at least in the P5, they can't reduce the award if a player isn't cutting it).
Great stuff bro. I remember when I got recruited to leave the Yellow Pages for a big Dot.com start up in 1999. Regional VP heard I was a damn good door knocker and he took me out for Steaks, lobsters and drinks. He offered a very nice deal and I took it. I had some pals making bank and I wanted some too. YP didn;t appreciate me at the time. Big bonus up front and a one year guarantee for x amount. He did make me sign a NDA and to never share my deal with others in his office because. We drank some more and then he invites me to Fritzes in Anaheim for some more benefits of coming over. I declined the lap dance but I did go home wondering what I was getting into, but the money was too good to pass up, I won't lie :( I found out after 30 days I made a huge mistake and I got on my knees and begged God to help me get out of hell. The next day I got a call from my old boss begging me to come back. He took me to a very nice place for more Steaks ((great guy and no invite for lap dance)) and made me an offer I couldn't refuse and I went back to the Yellow Pages until Google came and tricked our Execs to hand over our customer data base. That decision alone caused the YP to go OB!
 
Last edited:
I wish the NCAA published more data. Things like for each school what percent of incoming Freshmen last 4 years? What percent transfer? What percent of Freshmen that don't see minutes their 1st year last 4 years? I am sure there are many more questions. Like how many college players get injured? How many games do they miss? How many tear their ACL? There is a whole world of data missing that could help players and parents make informed decisions. Instead I am sure every single player is sold on being an impact player.
I'm sure even if the NCAA has the resources to do the data mining and publishing they would have ZERO interest in sharing it to the public as it would be a very bad look. From purely anecdotal data collected from the small network of club/college soccer connections my DD and I have, for every 1 example of a kid who played decent minutes in their first two years, there are a more than a dozen that played 0, transferred, got injured/ACL, or quit soccer altogether. What's wild too, is that within that band of kids we know who went on to college soccer, how each of them did relative to each other in their youth soccer careers didn't translate to college in the least. The biggest stud on her team who got the most impressive scholarship/school situation played sparingly as a freshman, scored one goal, and quit. One of the kids who only played 50% of the time in club really blossomed and ended up starting for their team deep into the D1 playoffs because the player ahead of her on the depth chart got injured. Half of the kids we know that were signed to play soccer in college never saw the field and either quit or transferred. And I think the story of the recent college athlete suicides proves that getting scholarships, playing time, winning championships, and getting accolades doesn't make it all worth it. College sports and soccer in particular is brutal, unpredictable, and much less glorious than any of the parents I know imagined when they embarked on the recruitment process, myself included. Many of the seniors on her college team, even the ones who started and play huge minutes end up leaving before eligibility is up just because it's such a grind and they want to enjoy life for a bit before going out into the world. I never understood that logic until watching it all up close. My DD's situation is fortunate by comparison to most of her former teammates, but we understand fully how brief and fleeting all of it is, and most importantly, how "out of our hands" so much of this experience can be. My advice to parents starting the process has changed over the years and now I tell parents of young kids "I don't recommend pursuing college soccer, but if your kid won't take no for an answer, you have to get your kid to not focus on the scholarship, the accolades, the playing time, the results, or even the personal goals: focusing only on self-improvement and learning from whatever happens. It is the only way to survive it with some sense of success.
 
I think the schools should be able to show the data w/o identifying players - X number of players at 100%, Y at 50%, Z at 10%, etc. But it creates an uncomfortable dynamic, and does not really help team cohesion, for players/parents to be asking "how much are you getting?" Unlike in the workplace, there is no collective benefit to knowing that that kid is on a full ride while that kid is getting 20% and the full ride kid can't compete while the 20% kid is carrying the team, especially given that most award decisions are made before players step foot on campus (and, at least in the P5, they can't reduce the award if a player isn't cutting it).
Anyone here with a kid that finished college find out during their time at college what some players were getting and their their reaction.

So I imagine each school does it differently. If a team has 28 players with 14 scholarships (worse for the men at 10 scholarships) one might see 4 have 0%, 8 have 25%, 10 have 50%, 4 have 75% and 4 have 100%(check my math). Another college may play things different. Also some colleges don't use all 14. During recruiting we found out some schools started every player at 25-33%. Then additional money given.

What positions do you think get the most money?
 
I'm sure even if the NCAA has the resources to do the data mining and publishing they would have ZERO interest in sharing it to the public as it would be a very bad look. From purely anecdotal data collected from the small network of club/college soccer connections my DD and I have, for every 1 example of a kid who played decent minutes in their first two years, there are a more than a dozen that played 0, transferred, got injured/ACL, or quit soccer altogether. What's wild too, is that within that band of kids we know who went on to college soccer, how each of them did relative to each other in their youth soccer careers didn't translate to college in the least. The biggest stud on her team who got the most impressive scholarship/school situation played sparingly as a freshman, scored one goal, and quit. One of the kids who only played 50% of the time in club really blossomed and ended up starting for their team deep into the D1 playoffs because the player ahead of her on the depth chart got injured. Half of the kids we know that were signed to play soccer in college never saw the field and either quit or transferred. And I think the story of the recent college athlete suicides proves that getting scholarships, playing time, winning championships, and getting accolades doesn't make it all worth it. College sports and soccer in particular is brutal, unpredictable, and much less glorious than any of the parents I know imagined when they embarked on the recruitment process, myself included. Many of the seniors on her college team, even the ones who started and play huge minutes end up leaving before eligibility is up just because it's such a grind and they want to enjoy life for a bit before going out into the world. I never understood that logic until watching it all up close. My DD's situation is fortunate by comparison to most of her former teammates, but we understand fully how brief and fleeting all of it is, and most importantly, how "out of our hands" so much of this experience can be. My advice to parents starting the process has changed over the years and now I tell parents of young kids "I don't recommend pursuing college soccer, but if your kid won't take no for an answer, you have to get your kid to not focus on the scholarship, the accolades, the playing time, the results, or even the personal goals: focusing only on self-improvement and learning from whatever happens. It is the only way to survive it with some sense of success.
I'm replying because everything you said is so important people should read it twice. I tried to gently force my kid into ECNL. Then to an out of state school that was giving good money. She wouldn't have any of it, and my pushing made her hesitate a bit about soccer. Thankfully I stopped all that and helped her work hard towards the schools she was really interested in and thankfully everything worked out.

Make sure they choose a school they really like because as mentioned, there is a chance they don't make it 4 years playing soccer. Remember that most of our kids have started and played full games their whole lives. Don't put them into a situation where they may see bench for two years and then play sparingly.
 
Anyone here with a kid that finished college find out during their time at college what some players were getting and their their reaction.

So I imagine each school does it differently. If a team has 28 players with 14 scholarships (worse for the men at 10 scholarships) one might see 4 have 0%, 8 have 25%, 10 have 50%, 4 have 75% and 4 have 100%(check my math). Another college may play things different. Also some colleges don't use all 14. During recruiting we found out some schools started every player at 25-33%. Then additional money given.

What positions do you think get the most money?

"some players" - I don't disagree. That information will be exchanged among the players and they are adults but you can see it impact the dynamic. Among the parents, yes some are very curious and almost competitive about it. It's like them sharing SAT scores or GPAs. I don't engage with that b/c I don't think anything good can come of it. If my two younger kids play college soccer, their award(s) will be different than their older sister's and maybe even different from one another but that would be the universe of knowledge that I care about.
 
I'm sure even if the NCAA has the resources to do the data mining and publishing they would have ZERO interest in sharing it to the public as it would be a very bad look. From purely anecdotal data collected from the small network of club/college soccer connections my DD and I have, for every 1 example of a kid who played decent minutes in their first two years, there are a more than a dozen that played 0, transferred, got injured/ACL, or quit soccer altogether. What's wild too, is that within that band of kids we know who went on to college soccer, how each of them did relative to each other in their youth soccer careers didn't translate to college in the least. The biggest stud on her team who got the most impressive scholarship/school situation played sparingly as a freshman, scored one goal, and quit. One of the kids who only played 50% of the time in club really blossomed and ended up starting for their team deep into the D1 playoffs because the player ahead of her on the depth chart got injured. Half of the kids we know that were signed to play soccer in college never saw the field and either quit or transferred. And I think the story of the recent college athlete suicides proves that getting scholarships, playing time, winning championships, and getting accolades doesn't make it all worth it. College sports and soccer in particular is brutal, unpredictable, and much less glorious than any of the parents I know imagined when they embarked on the recruitment process, myself included. Many of the seniors on her college team, even the ones who started and play huge minutes end up leaving before eligibility is up just because it's such a grind and they want to enjoy life for a bit before going out into the world. I never understood that logic until watching it all up close. My DD's situation is fortunate by comparison to most of her former teammates, but we understand fully how brief and fleeting all of it is, and most importantly, how "out of our hands" so much of this experience can be. My advice to parents starting the process has changed over the years and now I tell parents of young kids "I don't recommend pursuing college soccer, but if your kid won't take no for an answer, you have to get your kid to not focus on the scholarship, the accolades, the playing time, the results, or even the personal goals: focusing only on self-improvement and learning from whatever happens. It is the only way to survive it with some sense of success.
I sent this to a dear friend of mine who is depressed because his dd came back before she even started. This 100% helped him. His dd is super happy but he's not because he invested thousands of dollars and thousands of hours driving his dd all over playing youth soccer so he can see her play in college.
 
I'm sure even if the NCAA has the resources to do the data mining and publishing they would have ZERO interest in sharing it to the public as it would be a very bad look. From purely anecdotal data collected from the small network of club/college soccer connections my DD and I have, for every 1 example of a kid who played decent minutes in their first two years, there are a more than a dozen that played 0, transferred, got injured/ACL, or quit soccer altogether. What's wild too, is that within that band of kids we know who went on to college soccer, how each of them did relative to each other in their youth soccer careers didn't translate to college in the least. The biggest stud on her team who got the most impressive scholarship/school situation played sparingly as a freshman, scored one goal, and quit. One of the kids who only played 50% of the time in club really blossomed and ended up starting for their team deep into the D1 playoffs because the player ahead of her on the depth chart got injured. Half of the kids we know that were signed to play soccer in college never saw the field and either quit or transferred. And I think the story of the recent college athlete suicides proves that getting scholarships, playing time, winning championships, and getting accolades doesn't make it all worth it. College sports and soccer in particular is brutal, unpredictable, and much less glorious than any of the parents I know imagined when they embarked on the recruitment process, myself included. Many of the seniors on her college team, even the ones who started and play huge minutes end up leaving before eligibility is up just because it's such a grind and they want to enjoy life for a bit before going out into the world. I never understood that logic until watching it all up close. My DD's situation is fortunate by comparison to most of her former teammates, but we understand fully how brief and fleeting all of it is, and most importantly, how "out of our hands" so much of this experience can be. My advice to parents starting the process has changed over the years and now I tell parents of young kids "I don't recommend pursuing college soccer, but if your kid won't take no for an answer, you have to get your kid to not focus on the scholarship, the accolades, the playing time, the results, or even the personal goals: focusing only on self-improvement and learning from whatever happens. It is the only way to survive it with some sense of success.

Your post should be pinned to the start of this thread and any new member opening it should be forced to memorize it. Parents come here chasing the college scholarship (like I did) and have no clue of what they are getting their kid into.
 
The coach and his recruiting assistant certainly know ow, the AD knows and several members of his staff may have access to the info, the college leadership should know if they are meeting the requirements of maintaining effective control of the program, and the NCAA must have received reports that indicate how many are on scholarship and how much in order to determine if the school is in compliance with NCAA regulations. It wouldn't surprise me to know that competing coaches have a pretty good idea what the scholarship picture is from what their recruits have told them, if not just shared on a friendly basis or obtained over the transom.

The people that it is most important to keep the information from are the parents, both of prospective recruits and current players.
 
I sent this to a dear friend of mine who is depressed because his dd came back before she even started. This 100% helped him. His dd is super happy but he's not because he invested thousands of dollars and thousands of hours driving his dd all over playing youth soccer so he can see her play in college.
I'm glad if I could help any parent navigating this weird space we're in. I can understand how he would feel. Plenty of the friends I made on the sidelines felt the same way when their kids left the game before reaching whatever ideal they had as college players. But the key in your post is "His dd is supper happy." That's it. Full stop. If his dd is super happy now, then maybe all that money wasn't completely wasted. Maybe it was just another opportunity for her to figure herself out. And bless her for doing it! I sure hope he wouldn't trade a happy daughter full of life for a mentally wrecked kid with a nice stat sheet.
 
I'm sure even if the NCAA has the resources to do the data mining and publishing they would have ZERO interest in sharing it to the public as it would be a very bad look. From purely anecdotal data collected from the small network of club/college soccer connections my DD and I have, for every 1 example of a kid who played decent minutes in their first two years, there are a more than a dozen that played 0, transferred, got injured/ACL, or quit soccer altogether. What's wild too, is that within that band of kids we know who went on to college soccer, how each of them did relative to each other in their youth soccer careers didn't translate to college in the least. The biggest stud on her team who got the most impressive scholarship/school situation played sparingly as a freshman, scored one goal, and quit. One of the kids who only played 50% of the time in club really blossomed and ended up starting for their team deep into the D1 playoffs because the player ahead of her on the depth chart got injured. Half of the kids we know that were signed to play soccer in college never saw the field and either quit or transferred. And I think the story of the recent college athlete suicides proves that getting scholarships, playing time, winning championships, and getting accolades doesn't make it all worth it. College sports and soccer in particular is brutal, unpredictable, and much less glorious than any of the parents I know imagined when they embarked on the recruitment process, myself included. Many of the seniors on her college team, even the ones who started and play huge minutes end up leaving before eligibility is up just because it's such a grind and they want to enjoy life for a bit before going out into the world. I never understood that logic until watching it all up close. My DD's situation is fortunate by comparison to most of her former teammates, but we understand fully how brief and fleeting all of it is, and most importantly, how "out of our hands" so much of this experience can be. My advice to parents starting the process has changed over the years and now I tell parents of young kids "I don't recommend pursuing college soccer, but if your kid won't take no for an answer, you have to get your kid to not focus on the scholarship, the accolades, the playing time, the results, or even the personal goals: focusing only on self-improvement and learning from whatever happens. It is the only way to survive it with some sense of success.
You should post more often. :)
 
Your post should be pinned to the start of this thread and any new member opening it should be forced to memorize it. Parents come here chasing the college scholarship (like I did) and have no clue of what they are getting their kid into.
I know the grind you and your DD have had to go through and that experience, even when it eventually works out to playing time in college, is just something parents new to the process (like we once were) have no reality on.
 
Sitting drinking some wine, just had a great sushi dinner with the family. Daughter flies out for the last time tomorrow morning to start her senior season. She very well could be starting this final season like she did in the Spring or riding the pine behind some new Freshmen. On this past Father’s Day I got to drive her to one last game since she was playing in the WPSL. The end is near and it makes me a bit sad.
 
Well I'm new to it as my 05 DD just committed this summer and I'll definitely remeber your guys advice as I did for years on this thread and thank you everyone for the advice and for answering questions I had
Congrats. Is she staying in So Cal? What position does she play. Chance our daughter will play vs each other.
 
People don’t want to know “how much did Sally get?”. They want to know “what kind of money is out there and does my kid qualify?”.
I never said people don't want to know. I just said it's none of their business and inappropriate to ask.
 
I never said people don't want to know. I just said it's none of their business and inappropriate to ask.
And I disagree. It's all good Dubs, I get you man and I will never ask you. I got PMs from a few cool dads that gave me the low down on the deals out there. I 100% know how this all goes down. Have a gr8t Friday and I mean that.
 
I know the grind you and your DD have had to go through and that experience, even when it eventually works out to playing time in college, is just something parents new to the process (like we once were) have no reality on.

This and @Simisoccerfan's post to which you are responding are incredibly important to parents experiencing this journey with their kids. If kids are being recruited, they are excellent players and may even be among the best on a very good, even elite, team. But the grind of college athletics is something that hits like a ton of bricks and the reality of playing time is like a trough of ice water following those bricks. If you go back through those elite teams from GDA or ECNL and look at those players now as college juniors and seniors and what you are going to see is that while some noteworthy ones have played from the first minute, others have not. Talk to them about playing in youth final fours and being early commits (those were the days of unofficials at any age and middle school or HS frosh players with verbals) and look at how many have played a meaningful number of minutes through their soph or junior years and how many have great relationships with their college coaches.

My daughter's team played solid games against some of those elite SoCal teams (never losing to Surf from the first U12 EGSL event she played in against them (down in San Juan Capistrano - I'm guessing some of the other old timers may have been there), battling against Blues (a noteworthy blow out loss but some really good games as well)) and were recognized by other teams and scouts for the soccer they played. They had a lot of D1 commits (11 or 12, I think, and a couple D2 and D3) but, as they enter their junior years, it's a small handful who have played a lot of minutes. Some aren't playing, several have transferred from their first schools. Hey, it's not uncommon to not play a lot as frosh and sophs (maybe even the norm) but going from a 90 minute player on an elite team to a handful of mins, the occasional start, some games w/o leaving the bench . . . that can be really hard. Especially when you are dealing with school, demanding coaches ("yeah, yeah. Coaches are demanding. Do you really think our kids don't know that?" Yes. I really think they don't have a full grasp of what that means at the college level unless they have a sibling or very, very, close friend who can be fully honest about it), some profs who are understanding and some who couldn't give a single sh*t thinking about your kid's travel commitments, lack of time for studying or just pure exhaustion. Mix in, for these young women and men, covid and injury and a wave of tragedies (not sure if any more but we certainly hear about them a lot more) . . .

I am not one to say, "Make sure they love the school first because the sport may disappear" because I'm of the belief that, for many, a huge part of this big time decision is made because of the sport, the team, the athletic department - that is the group you will be spending most of your time around (their teammates but also other athletes) as they integrate into the campus and they may have made a totally different decision but for the sport. The player should consider whether she or he will be happy as a student but if it weren't for soccer, maybe a totally different campus would make more sense. I want the kids to talk to athletes at the school but, during recruiting, it is really tough to get honest answers (part of human nature) so the discussion, in a sense, needs to be even broader than the specific school. It is to talk with and listen to - REALLY listen to - college soccer players about how hard it can be. Maybe the HS recruit does not want to hear it - I get that - or can't really put herself or himself in that other person's shoes - I get that, too. But when you think of the "grind" that @Mystery Train mentions, even if your kid can't identify until experiencing it, all of you as parents should listen carefully and be ready. Because whether your kid steps on the pitch and plays full 90s or does not see the field for meaningful minutes in important games, the grind is real. The pieces you pick up are certain to be there. Your pride and excitement can get in the way of what your kid is going through (I'm 100% guilty of that). Talk to some of the old timers for candid takes on what their amazing children have gone through. I'd predict that, on balance, the take away is positive but I'd suspect it is non-linear, full of highs and lows, and they are both sad when it ends but also grateful their kids have come through it OK.

Stepping off the soap box and putting it away.
 
I wish the NCAA published more data. Things like for each school what percent of incoming Freshmen last 4 years? What percent transfer? What percent of Freshmen that don't see minutes their 1st year last 4 years? I am sure there are many more questions. Like how many college players get injured? How many games do they miss? How many tear their ACL? There is a whole world of data missing that could help players and parents make informed decisions. Instead I am sure every single player is sold on being an impact player.
That would require the NCAA to actually care about the student athletes.
 
This and @Simisoccerfan's post to which you are responding are incredibly important to parents experiencing this journey with their kids. If kids are being recruited, they are excellent players and may even be among the best on a very good, even elite, team. But the grind of college athletics is something that hits like a ton of bricks and the reality of playing time is like a trough of ice water following those bricks. If you go back through those elite teams from GDA or ECNL and look at those players now as college juniors and seniors and what you are going to see is that while some noteworthy ones have played from the first minute, others have not. Talk to them about playing in youth final fours and being early commits (those were the days of unofficials at any age and middle school or HS frosh players with verbals) and look at how many have played a meaningful number of minutes through their soph or junior years and how many have great relationships with their college coaches.

My daughter's team played solid games against some of those elite SoCal teams (never losing to Surf from the first U12 EGSL event she played in against them (down in San Juan Capistrano - I'm guessing some of the other old timers may have been there), battling against Blues (a noteworthy blow out loss but some really good games as well)) and were recognized by other teams and scouts for the soccer they played. They had a lot of D1 commits (11 or 12, I think, and a couple D2 and D3) but, as they enter their junior years, it's a small handful who have played a lot of minutes. Some aren't playing, several have transferred from their first schools. Hey, it's not uncommon to not play a lot as frosh and sophs (maybe even the norm) but going from a 90 minute player on an elite team to a handful of mins, the occasional start, some games w/o leaving the bench . . . that can be really hard. Especially when you are dealing with school, demanding coaches ("yeah, yeah. Coaches are demanding. Do you really think our kids don't know that?" Yes. I really think they don't have a full grasp of what that means at the college level unless they have a sibling or very, very, close friend who can be fully honest about it), some profs who are understanding and some who couldn't give a single sh*t thinking about your kid's travel commitments, lack of time for studying or just pure exhaustion. Mix in, for these young women and men, covid and injury and a wave of tragedies (not sure if any more but we certainly hear about them a lot more) . . .

I am not one to say, "Make sure they love the school first because the sport may disappear" because I'm of the belief that, for many, a huge part of this big time decision is made because of the sport, the team, the athletic department - that is the group you will be spending most of your time around (their teammates but also other athletes) as they integrate into the campus and they may have made a totally different decision but for the sport. The player should consider whether she or he will be happy as a student but if it weren't for soccer, maybe a totally different campus would make more sense. I want the kids to talk to athletes at the school but, during recruiting, it is really tough to get honest answers (part of human nature) so the discussion, in a sense, needs to be even broader than the specific school. It is to talk with and listen to - REALLY listen to - college soccer players about how hard it can be. Maybe the HS recruit does not want to hear it - I get that - or can't really put herself or himself in that other person's shoes - I get that, too. But when you think of the "grind" that @Mystery Train mentions, even if your kid can't identify until experiencing it, all of you as parents should listen carefully and be ready. Because whether your kid steps on the pitch and plays full 90s or does not see the field for meaningful minutes in important games, the grind is real. The pieces you pick up are certain to be there. Your pride and excitement can get in the way of what your kid is going through (I'm 100% guilty of that). Talk to some of the old timers for candid takes on what their amazing children have gone through. I'd predict that, on balance, the take away is positive but I'd suspect it is non-linear, full of highs and lows, and they are both sad when it ends but also grateful their kids have come through it OK.

Stepping off the soap box and putting it away.
YES!

I know exactly what you mean when you talk about the old teams and those elite players. I've watched many of the same ones and followed what happened after college started.

So true about evaluating the school and what a huge part of the the decision the sport/team/program culture is. One thing I didn't understand is how little of the college life a player gets to experience outside their team. I mean, they're still college students and yes, they will go to parties and events, etc. (NOT during season in her program) but it's almost always with teammates or sometimes other athletes from other sports. In my kid's 2.5 years at school, I don't think she has a solid lasting friendship that she's made outside of soccer or one of the other sports. And that's not because she's shy or stuck up or bent on only hanging with athletes. It's because they all share the same reality and the same physical space for the vast majority of their waking day. And the "NARP's" (Non-Athletic Regular People) as the players call them, often don't understand why she can't join in and do all the stuff they get to do, so it makes it VERY hard to fit into a social group outside of your team. It can be done, but it takes extra effort on top of the exceptional effort they're already expending to be an athlete. So just imagine how shitty your child's school experience would be if things on the team, between teammates, between coaches, between your roommates get tense! AND THEY 100% WILL GET TENSE, GUARANTEED. It's impossible for it not to. Mix in the probability that a kid is away from home for the first time and simultaneously doing the hardest physical work they've ever done in their life and honestly, it's no wonder so many leave the sport!

As I'm typing this, I'm seriously wondering why anyone would choose this path to begin with if they knew what it was really like. I'm trying to stop using the word "quit" when I talk about my DD's former club teammates or her current college teammates when they decide it's the end of soccer for themselves. I've gained a lot of respect for many of the kids that ended up coming to that conclusion because I understand now that they were able to accurately predict what was in their best interests going forward and are benefitting greatly from that choice now. That takes guts, too. Especially when so many people around you (especially parents) have made this such a big deal for your whole life.

Your closing quote puts it best:
"I'd predict that, on balance, the take away is positive but I'd suspect it is non-linear, full of highs and lows, and they are both sad when it ends but also grateful their kids have come through it OK."
 
Back
Top