Presidio/SDDA League new spectator rule should shut up crazy parents

[watfly]

Recently before a game an AR shouted to the parents on his sideline, "I want to make sure I can count on you to let me know if I make a bad call. Make sure you are loud. I love hearing it. The players love hearing it. Everyone seated next to you loves to hear it. Thanks for having my back. Have a good game parents." It made everyone laugh. It set a great tone for the game.

Smart ref. Unfortunately, it's a shame that more refs don't do this, it would make their life easier during the game. A quick ice breaker, a smile and a sense of humor goes a long way to build rapport with parents. Does it always work? Nope, but I've seen it be very effective.

Much more effective than the ref last week that told the coach and the team manager before the game that he would "let the kids play", but if he heard anything from parents he would "call everything, and slow the game way down." He kept stopping the game to tell coaches and players that he was "the man".

 

[Surfref]

God, I love this new sideline rule. I worked 5 games today, B15 AR, G18 CR, B12 x2 CR, G12 CR. And for 99 percent of the time no one yelled at me or my ARs. All of the managers told me they had warned all of their spectators about the new rule. We had a couple jack-wagons that yelled a couple comments to me and my youth ARs. The coach, who I did not know, stood next to me as I showed the group of dads a yellow card then the coach told them they were embarrassing their kids. No problems after that. What a nice day of soccer without the parents yelling. I think I am going to like refereeing this fall. I sure hope Cal South makes this policy standard for all leagues and tournaments.

 

[coachrefparent]

God, I love this new sideline rule. I worked 5 games today, B15 AR, G18 CR, B12 x2 CR, G12 CR. And for 99 percent of the time no one yelled at me or my ARs. All of the managers told me they had warned all of their spectators about the new rule. We had a couple jack-wagons that yelled a couple comments to me and my youth ARs. The coach, who I did not know, stood next to me as I showed the group of dads a yellow card then the coach told them they were embarrassing their kids. No problems after that. What a nice day of soccer without the parents yelling. I think I am going to like refereeing this fall. I sure hope Cal South makes this policy standard for all leagues and tournaments.

Sounds like those Silent Saturdays that AYSO used to do. It was a bit eery with no noise.

 

[MWN]

If you don’t enjoy it, why are you doing it?!? Isn’t that what we talk about for the players?

First off, there are a lot of great refs out there, and I agree, referee abuse is not acceptable. But I wonder if that’s part of the problem, parents see how hard their kids train to prepare for this game and yet, so often, refs just show up to the game, totally unprepared, and clearly showing they couldn’t care less....

I will share my daughters experience. My daughter is now 19, college sophomore and referee'd for about 5 years, until she quit. This weekend while watching her brother (2003) play she commented that she might go back and referee, but probably won't because she doesn't need the abuse. I asked her what kind of abuse, her comment was "Dad, I don't mind the stupid parents yelling because they don't understand the laws, but the dumb coaches that don't know certain laws have changed is really frustrating. Last year, at Surf Cup she had multiple coaches insult her because she held down her flag when a player was offside, waiting for the player to "become actively involved in the play." She would properly wait for active involvement and then raise the flag, which caused the coaches to complain that she didn't know what she was doing because these coaches hadn't taken the time to update themselves on laws/rules that changed years ago. Her biggest pet peeve however were the Dads who made rude remarks and leered at her while she was doing her job on the sideline.

My son (2003) who has also stopped refereeing was called into a higher level game (2001's) because of a shortage a few years ago. The center referee was one of the better referees in the Association and believed my son could do it. I drove him to the park (at the time he was 14 and these kids were 16), and stood behind the parents of the same club he played for at the time. Watching him and the game because again these were older from the same club he played for. At some point, a close call occured where a player was either even or "offside" and he didn't raise his flag. The player scored against his home club. Well the parents for this club were not happy because from their poor angle it was offside and admittedly the attacker had his arm outstretched pointing where he wanted the ball played. One dad started yelling and complaining, and yelled down at my 14 year old "Hey, AR, learn the rules. He was offside if ANY PART OF HIS BODY is across the line. ANY PART ... [blah, blah, blah]." This A-Hole then caused a few more dads to start in and there was a chorus of "Ya AR, any part ... you cost us a goal." I walked down to the touchline and stood behind him and asked "Do you think they are right?" He said, "I don't think so, but now I don't know." I reinforced the correct rule, which he got right ... "Offside must be parts of the body that can play the ball." Told him "Don't listen to the parents they are dumbasses." I then turned around and in my biggest and loudest from the chest voice said: "Hawks parents! Hawks parents! [Looking directly at the instigator Dad] I have 2 things to say: 1: Offside IS NOT ANY PART OF THE BODY hands and arms don't count, so your parent is wrong [pointing to the idiot]. 2: DO NOT ADDRESS or abuse the sideline referee anymore, its against the SCDSL rules and I will not tolerate it." I then went over to the idiot instigator and stood right behind him (10 feet away), watching him on his phone trying to look up the rule. I even told him to "Search for IFAB Law 11 for the rule." In the ensuing minutes after, I dealt with a few parents that wanted me to leave, I refused; some apologized for their bad behavior, some apologized for the Dads telling me they are always like this, and one or two were generally taken aback that an adult had the balls to call them out on their bad behavior and thought my presence would escallate things further. The boy quit refereeing about 6 months later, telling me he didn't want to do it anymore because he just didn't need to hear the stupid parents.

So what we have now are parents and coaches that drive out of the game our younger referees that are not as emotionally jaded as us older folks, leaving younger and younger kids to pick up the voids.

I have no f'ing sympathy for you or your kids and the hours of practice and privates and whatever you go through for your little one. None whatsoever. While you may be able to keep your mouth shut, your job is also to tell your wayward dumbass parents to keep their mouths shut. You don't like the skill level of the referees ... too young ... too slow ... too whatever? Stand up, look around at your sideline and you will find your answer. Its because of the parents that abuse the referees AND the fact that the other parents lack the fortitude to stop it and shut down the idiots on your sideline. YOU PARENTS and your dumbass coaches are why we are forced to throw inexperienced kids into the game.

Finally, how these inexperienced kids get experience is working the youngers, 9v9 games as a sideline referee with older centers.

 

[coachrefparent]

I will share my daughters experience. My daughter is now 19, college sophomore and referee'd for about 5 years, until she quit. This weekend while watching her brother (2003) play she commented that she might go back and referee, but probably won't because she doesn't need the abuse. I asked her what kind of abuse, her comment was "Dad, I don't mind the stupid parents yelling because they don't understand the laws, but the dumb coaches that don't know certain laws have changed is really frustrating. Last year, at Surf Cup she had multiple coaches insult her because she held down her flag when a player was offside, waiting for the player to "become actively involved in the play." She would properly wait for active involvement and then raise the flag, which caused the coaches to complain that she didn't know what she was doing because these coaches hadn't taken the time to update themselves on laws/rules that changed years ago. Her biggest pet peeve however were the Dads who made rude remarks and leered at her while she was doing her job on the sideline.

My son (2003) who has also stopped refereeing was called into a higher level game (2001's) because of a shortage a few years ago. The center referee was one of the better referees in the Association and believed my son could do it. I drove him to the park (at the time he was 14 and these kids were 16), and stood behind the parents of the same club he played for at the time. Watching him and the game because again these were older from the same club he played for. At some point, a close call occured where a player was either even or "offside" and he didn't raise his flag. The player scored against his home club. Well the parents for this club were not happy because from their poor angle it was offside and admittedly the attacker had his arm outstretched pointing where he wanted the ball played. One dad started yelling and complaining, and yelled down at my 14 year old "Hey, AR, learn the rules. He was offside if ANY PART OF HIS BODY is across the line. ANY PART ... [blah, blah, blah]." This A-Hole then caused a few more dads to start in and there was a chorus of "Ya AR, any part ... you cost us a goal." I walked down to the touchline and stood behind him and asked "Do you think they are right?" He said, "I don't think so, but now I don't know." I reinforced the correct rule, which he got right ... "Offside must be parts of the body that can play the ball." Told him "Don't listen to the parents they are dumbasses." I then turned around and in my biggest and loudest from the chest voice said: "Hawks parents! Hawks parents! [Looking directly at the instigator Dad] I have 2 things to say: 1: Offside IS NOT ANY PART OF THE BODY hands and arms don't count, so your parent is wrong [pointing to the idiot]. 2: DO NOT ADDRESS or abuse the sideline referee anymore, its against the SCDSL rules and I will not tolerate it." I then went over to the idiot instigator and stood right behind him (10 feet away), watching him on his phone trying to look up the rule. I even told him to "Search for IFAB Law 11 for the rule." In the ensuing minutes after, I dealt with a few parents that wanted me to leave, I refused; some apologized for their bad behavior, some apologized for the Dads telling me they are always like this, and one or two were generally taken aback that an adult had the balls to call them out on their bad behavior and thought my presence would escallate things further. The boy quit refereeing about 6 months later, telling me he didn't want to do it anymore because he just didn't need to hear the stupid parents.

So what we have now are parents and coaches that drive out of the game our younger referees that are not as emotionally jaded as us older folks, leaving younger and younger kids to pick up the voids.

I have no f'ing sympathy for you or your kids and the hours of practice and privates and whatever you go through for your little one. None whatsoever. While you may be able to keep your mouth shut, your job is also to tell your wayward dumbass parents to keep their mouths shut. You don't like the skill level of the referees ... too young ... too slow ... too whatever? Stand up, look around at your sideline and you will find your answer. Its because of the parents that abuse the referees AND the fact that the other parents lack the fortitude to stop it and shut down the idiots on your sideline. YOU PARENTS and your dumbass coaches are why we are forced to throw inexperienced kids into the game.

Finally, how these inexperienced kids get experience is working the youngers, 9v9 games as a sideline referee with older centers.

Is is possible he quit because you went to his games and made a scene confronting parents on the sideline, instead of allowing him to learn to deal with the aholes himself? Nothing a teenager hates more than a parent making a scene. Maybe something to do with it? Possibly?

My son is the same age, and I know the abuse is hard for them, as it is for referees of all ages. But if they want to continue refereeing they need to learn for themselves to ignore it, or have the parents ejected. It's the only thing that works for these scumbags, who will always be there.

 

[watfly]

I asked her what kind of abuse, her comment was "Dad, I don't mind the stupid parents yelling because they don't understand the laws, but the dumb coaches that don't know certain laws have changed is really frustrating. Last year, at Surf Cup she had multiple coaches insult her because she held down her flag when a player was offside, waiting for the player to "become actively involved in the play." She would properly wait for active involvement and then raise the flag, which caused the coaches to complain that she didn't know what she was doing because these coaches hadn't taken the time to update themselves on laws/rules that changed years ago.

I think the gaming associations should require coaches to take a 1 hour rules change course every year (refresher too if changes are limited). It could be administered by the Club to save time and money for the coaches, if necessary. Until a proof of attendance is provided, say to Calsouth in our case, the coach is not allowed to coach a league game (it would be nice for tourney's but they don't usually enforce new rules until league play). Clubs, and coaches on their own accord, should be doing this anyway, but I know it's not happening.

 

[Emma]

I think the gaming associations should require coaches to take a 1 hour rules change course every year (refresher too if changes are limited). It could be administered by the Club to save time and money for the coaches, if necessary. Until a proof of attendance is provided, say to Calsouth in our case, the coach is not allowed to coach a league game (it would be nice for tourney's but they don't usually enforce new rules until league play). Clubs, and coaches on their own accord, should be doing this anyway, but I know it's not happening.

Maybe we should have parents, coaches, and players take in person and self pay courses if they receive yellow or red cards. Yellow cards 2 hour course and reds are 6 hours. They have to take a test at the end and pass it too. If they don't finish it by their next eligible game, they don't get to join in the festivities. I can't be responsible for other parents on my sideline, they're adults, but they'll probably hold themselves more accountable if they have to drive somewhere and listen to a lecture about being decent to other people. You'll probably see parents & coaches not encourage so many fouls either if kids have to spend time at lectures rather than practice,. This may reduce a lot of injuries too.

 

[MWN]

Is is possible he quit because you went to his games and made a scene confronting parents on the sideline, instead of allowing him to learn to deal with the aholes himself? Nothing a teenager hates more than a parent making a scene. Maybe something to do with it? Possibly?

My son is the same age, and I know the abuse is hard for them, as it is for referees of all ages. But if they want to continue refereeing they need to learn for themselves to ignore it, or have the parents ejected. It's the only thing that works for these scumbags, who will always be there.

That was actually an exception. There were many times that I was the center and he was the AR and/or he was just the AR working with other centers. He gave it up after working a few CSL games last year. He came home and told me he was done. He had worked 4 games that day, all CSL teams with a high Hispanic population on the sideline that were taking the games way too seriously. Every game was a challenge with parents and coaches challenging the referee crew. The final straw was while walking off the field with the crew one of the parents and players confronted the referee crew and told them they were shit and the worst referee crew, yada yada yada, the rest of the parents laughed and were saying stuff in spanish and laughing and just generally having a good time with the abuse. He came home that day said he was done.

 

[Grace T.]

That was actually an exception. There were many times that I was the center and he was the AR and/or he was just the AR working with other centers. He gave it up after working a few CSL games last year. He came home and told me he was done. He had worked 4 games that day, all CSL teams with a high Hispanic population on the sideline that were taking the games way too seriously. Every game was a challenge with parents and coaches challenging the referee crew. The final straw was while walking off the field with the crew one of the parents and players confronted the referee crew and told them they were shit and the worst referee crew, yada yada yada, the rest of the parents laughed and were saying stuff in spanish and laughing and just generally having a good time with the abuse. He came home that day said he was done.

I guess I can say it because I'm Hispanic myself, but there is a cultural element to referee abuse...soccer isn't the best behaved game in Latin America (hey wars have been sparked over it....they were stupid, but still wars nonetheless)....the impression I get is that US Soccer has been reluctant to too overtly tackle this for fear of further dividing off the community (like with all the controversies over the goalkick slurs).

This weekend I found myself yelled at for the not raising the flag until the ball is played thing. I may be wrapping it up too. Without AYSO volunteer requirements, and with my son's middle school applications looming, I find myself taking fewer and fewer assignments (just enough so I can keep up to speed with what's going on out there so I can stay on the ground for my writing, but no more). Don't need the money and it's just not fun.

 

[MWN]

I think the gaming associations should require coaches to take a 1 hour rules change course every year (refresher too if changes are limited). It could be administered by the Club to save time and money for the coaches, if necessary. Until a proof of attendance is provided, say to Calsouth in our case, the coach is not allowed to coach a league game (it would be nice for tourney's but they don't usually enforce new rules until league play). Clubs, and coaches on their own accord, should be doing this anyway, but I know it's not happening.

Yes, but the problem is not the rules per se, but perspective. This is club soccer. We are not talking about the professional leagues, but soccer played by minors for recreational purposes. Parents and coaches need to shift their perspective. Their player will make mistakes, the coach will make mistakes and the referee crew will make mistakes. What happens when a mistake is make is one of perspective. We calmly address the mistake and discuss it, don't f'ing yell about it, don't shout stupid stuff from the sideline and just roll with it.

This weekend I had the wonderful privilege of attending a game in downtown freaking LA (live in Temecula). The referee crew didn't fully understand the offside rule that requires the offside player to "actively play" or "actively impact play" before calling an offiside. Multiple times, the flag went up and the center was quick with a whistle before seeing whether the offside player could play the ball. The field was very fast and frequently the ball rolled to the GK without any danger of being played by the offside player (these were 18 and 19 year olds ... fast pace). At half, I walked over to the crew, very politely introduced myself telling them who I was, etc. I then asked "If the offside rule changed, because I was under the impression that the player had to be actively involved in the play or impact the defenders as a result of his position." One of the referees believed I was wrong and that offside is when the player "attempts to play, whether he has a chance or not." We had a little discussion where I explained that "attempting" to play is not the standard because players instinctively run towards the ball but then peel off or disengage after a few steps or simply have no chance at getting to the ball before an onside player or defender does, and "we" referees should not immediately whistle play dead until the player "actively plays" or a threat of a "GK/attacker" collision, etc. I gave a few examples, thanked them for listening and as I was about to walk away one of the referees said "Sir, thank you for talking to us the way you did, we want to do our best" in his broken English.

My point is even with relatively experienced crews these guys are going to get stuff wrong. Don't get up on arms about it. No big deal. Take an opportunity (assuming you know the Laws of the Game) and politely discuss it at half or after the game. Treat the crew with respect, they want to do their best.

BTW - the 2nd half the crew corrected their mistake.

 

[foreveryoung]

Maybe we should have parents, coaches, and players take in person and self pay courses if they receive yellow or red cards. Yellow cards 2 hour course and reds are 6 hours. They have to take a test at the end and pass it too. If they don't finish it by their next eligible game, they don't get to join in the festivities. I can't be responsible for other parents on my sideline, they're adults, but they'll probably hold themselves more accountable if they have to drive somewhere and listen to a lecture about being decent to other people. You'll probably see parents & coaches not encourage so many fouls either if kids have to spend time at lectures rather than practice,. This may reduce a lot of injuries too.

Anyone know what does happen if a coach gets a yellow card? It happened this weekend and I wondered if there is any consequence to it other than a 2nd one in the match would have resulted in his ejection.

 

[Emma]

Anyone know what does happen if a coach gets a yellow card? It happened this weekend and I wondered if there is any consequence to it other than a 2nd one in the match would have resulted in his ejection.

Specific league rules defines the consequence. You should check on the league website to find out what the consequence is. It's probably no consequence, just a warning.

 

[MWN]

Anyone know what does happen if a coach gets a yellow card? It happened this weekend and I wondered if there is any consequence to it other than a 2nd one in the match would have resulted in his ejection.

First of all, carding the coaches and spectators is a League Rule, the Laws of the Game don't address/allow carding non-players. When leagues allow it, its generally just for effect. Coaches are warned to stop whatever their behavior is through a visual public display. Second, as @Emma states, you have to check the league rules in CSL it means nothing. Its only when the Coach is actually kicked out of the game that consequences follow (2 game suspension, etc.).

 

[Tea and Busquets]

First of all, carding the coaches and spectators is a League Rule, the Laws of the Game don't address/allow carding non-players. When leagues allow it, its generally just for effect. Coaches are warned to stop whatever their behavior is through a visual public display. Second, as @Emma states, you have to check the league rules in CSL it means nothing. Its only when the Coach is actually kicked out of the game that consequences follow (2 game suspension, etc.).

No longer true. As of this year, coaches can now be shown cards. Just FYI

 

[MWN]

No longer true. As of this year, coaches can now be shown cards. Just FYI

Thanks for the correction. Perfect example of a semi-experienced referee (me) not knowing/appreciating a rule change. I guess this makes me a bad guy that shouldn't referee games now?

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

5 REASONS TO NOT YELL AT A REFEREE EVEN WHEN HE IS CLEARLY WRONG:

1: It teaches your kids a lack of respect for authority. You think your kids will always have great bosses? Why don't you just teach your kid "If you have a bad boss, screw him, and tell it to his face". It does not matter if authority is wielding its power ineffectively, Authority is authority, and you will not get far in life if you throw a temper tantrum every time you think you could have done something better than your boss.

2: It teaches your children to "tilt" when faced with adversity. Harassing the referee just takes your kids focus off soccer. Instead of trying to win, some kids become more obsessed with counting how many fouls the ref calls against them. I see it all the time. You think they can mentally stew on referees mistakes and then be able to track the man he is supposed to be marking from his peripheral vision while making a heads up counterattack? No.

3: The bad referee is just going to view himself as a martyr and become further set in his ways. If a referee is ever going to be told he did a bad job, it will most likely be by one of his peers and it most certainly will not be said in public. The last person a referee will ever have an "aha" moment from is a pissed off parent.

4: It detracts from being able to enjoy potentially good game. Self explanatory.

5: It makes you look like a child. No seriously. Search "bad referee" or any other derivation in YouTube and find me a video where the parents comes off as looking better than the referee. There isn't one. Even when the referee completely missed an obvious call, somehow the parents always come off looking entitled and whiny.


The last reason is that you scare off youth referee's. That argument is true, but most parents don't care about the big picture or about others in the heat of the game. All of these reasons are the personal negatives of yelling, because I know those types of parents only care about themselves anyway.

 

[watfly]

Yes, but the problem is not the rules per se, but perspective. This is club soccer. We are not talking about the professional leagues, but soccer played by minors for recreational purposes. Parents and coaches need to shift their perspective. Their player will make mistakes, the coach will make mistakes and the referee crew will make mistakes. What happens when a mistake is make is one of perspective. We calmly address the mistake and discuss it, don't f'ing yell about it, don't shout stupid stuff from the sideline and just roll with it.

I agree, and I'm not pretending this would be the magic pill (in fact, it probably won't put a dent in coach abuse of refs), but its better for refs, players and parents if the coach is up to date on the latest rules. If a new rule will impact the way my son needs to play I will give him a cursory heads up (and what the potential impact may be), but tell him that ultimately he needs to pay attention to his coach and refs' instructions. So for this year I mentioned the new handball and goal kick rules. Didn't mention the substitution rule because I suspect it will be handled a number of ways at refs' discretion and doesn't really impact how the game is played. Nor did I mention the drop ball rule and wall rule since that's easy enough for the ref to handle when the situation occurs.

 

[Surfref]

First of all, carding the coaches and spectators is a League Rule, the Laws of the Game don't address/allow carding non-players. When leagues allow it, its generally just for effect. Coaches are warned to stop whatever their behavior is through a visual public display. Second, as @Emma states, you have to check the league rules in CSL it means nothing. Its only when the Coach is actually kicked out of the game that consequences follow (2 game suspension, etc.).

You are incorrect. LOTG 2019/2020 clearly states in Law 5 (bottom of page 66) that the Referee takes action against team officials who fail to act in a responsible manner and warns or shows a yellow card for a caution or a red card for a sending-off from the field of play and its immediate surrounds, including the technical area; if the offender cannot be identified, the senior coach present in the technical area will receive the sanction.

As for what happens if a coach is Cautioned. It all depends on what the referee reports to the league. If it is a youth referee that cautions a coach for continued inappropriate comments toward the referee, I have known of coaches that received everything from a strong warning to a suspension. I know of a youth referee that wrote a report about a coach he cautioned and in the report the 14 year old referee wrote that he was too afraid to red card the coach because it would end the game (no assistant coach) and he did not want to be yelled at by the coach and parents. There is never a reason to yell inappropriate comments, suggestions or other remarks toward a youth referee. Even comments as tame as “that was offside” may have a negative impact on that youth referee. When I am working with youth referees as I did this past weekend, it is my job as the adult on the crew to protect them.

 

[greekgirl]

As for what happens if a coach is Cautioned. It all depends on what the referee reports to the league. If it is a youth referee that cautions a coach for continued inappropriate comments toward the referee, I have known of coaches that received everything from a strong warning to a suspension. I know of a youth referee that wrote a report about a coach he cautioned and in the report the 14 year old referee wrote that he was too afraid to red card the coach because it would end the game (no assistant coach) and he did not want to be yelled at by the coach and parents. There is never a reason to yell inappropriate comments, suggestions or other remarks toward a youth referee. Even comments as tame as “that was offside” may have a negative impact on that youth referee. When I am working with youth referees as I did this past weekend, it is my job as the adult on the crew to protect them.

It's not just youth referees who are scared - last year I was afraid to give a red card at a game too. I had two youth (teen) referees as AR's and it was a single field location. The irate coach stormed onto the field yelling in my face and all I could think at that point was I have to calm this man down because I've got two teens here with me and no way to get out of here without going through the parents to the parking lot. This was the only time I have been scared on a soccer field. I wrote in my match report to the league that I should have issued a red card to the coach and why. The next day I got an email from my assignor showing me the league had contacted the DOC at the club asking what had happened. The coach and several other coaches from the same club proceeded to write up horrible things about myself and the two teens (one of the teens had centered an earlier game) really childish stuff. Not sure what the league did about it though. I will say I haven't seen that coach since then on or off the field.

We are short of referees - on Saturday I had two games where I had to ask someone to play club linesman because we didn't have enough referees to cover all the spots.

 

[TangoCity]

Might be an unpopular opinion but I think the rule is dumb and probably nearly impossible to enforce. Just suspend the offending person(s).