Eagle33
PREMIER
you are talking about 70% of the coaches
Prayers to the family
- Thread starter Eagle33
- Start date
DD's club cancelled practice with the temps expected to remain between 105-110 at 5pm today. I will be expecting the same for tomorrow.
Hopefully this remains on peoples radar instead of a blip fading away.
Hopefully this remains on peoples radar instead of a blip fading away.
No doubt this is an unspeakable tragedy and a parent's worst nightmare, nothing will ever underscore that. I don't know if accusing coaches, clubs, etc is the right thing to do. I guess unless you were there, you don't really have any context as to what happened, what heat stress precautions were taken, what the child did prior to coming to practice etc. It's a tragedy all the way around - that coach and team will be hard pressed to recover from this tragedy. The family is forever changed.
If you personally know what happened and observed negligence, then you should step forward, certainly not on here. If there was negligence, I have no doubt that things will be resolved.
Unfortunately young athletes do die suddenly, look it up for yourself. There are teams (all sports) all over the country practicing in high temps. Historically in places like AZ and TX, they do it year in and year out. I'm sure I missed a state or two. In AZ, it's not uncommon to practice and play in temps excess of 105. Common sense and experience in heat stress mitigation are applied. What club wants a child under their care to pass by way of accident? I would say none.
I 100% want the family to know RIP to DS. I mean that and this could easily be my dd.
I was just thinking about one tournament back in the day in July one summer, like 5 years ago. Blues vs Legends and it was a game for the ages and everyone was going ape shit on the forum that week because their was talk about postponing the tournament. Well, my dd Blues team lost in the Semi's to Legends in 104 heat. In fact, a lot of us talked about how crazy it was to play. 50/50 and we all still had our dd play. I was telling everyone how glad we were to lose in Semi's to Legends because their reward was playing at 4pm the same freaking day for the championship trophy. I have no idea who won but I got blasted on here for being a sore loser. I wasn;t a sore loser, I saw my dd asleep and she didnt wake up until the next day and I told everyone that was bad. We actually escaped the worse nightmare for any parent who has kids playing sports. 105 in Cali and 105 in AZ and Texas can be different. My dd has played in both extreme conditions before. Texas had high heat plus thunderstorms and lighting all in one day. One minute no clouds and one hour later everyone is running away from potential lightning strikes. It was like nothing to the Liverpool and Solar parents I met over the weekend at the Big Copa Tournament. Playing early or at night is ok with me now days. IE, way too hot and I agree with Tech. 85 tonight at Great Park. Stay safe everyone and drink lot's of water.
Soccermaverick
SILVER ELITE
First, risk mitigation needs to be done to ensure safety protocols are followed. If risk mitigation was done before the event they would have seen that 110+ degrees prevents them from training. It was not done.
Second, A safety brief before the practice would have stopped the practice from occurring because it would have shown that at 110+ temperatures the kids would not have been prepared ( no amount of hydration can compensate for 110+ degrees in a child). It was note done.
Finally, the San Bernardino Sheriff’s offfice said “it was likely heat related. “. If that is written in the report, the district attorney will need to investigate. If they investigate and find it was heat related. Then
SOMEONE NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL...
the kids deserve better from adults. He deserved better. Such a nice young man .
If a coach is going to be responsible for telling your child and you as parents what will be happening in a training session then they MUST be sure they are trained and have educated themselves regarding all safety precautions. There are no circumstances that would validate a reason for training at noon in 111 degree weather. I am sure the coach and the club are distraught over this situation but the practice should not have been happening.
suzysoccer1
SILVER
At a minimum for a college soccer training session:
Athletic Trainer is present with the following:
Cell phone
Emergency plan
Field map/ ingress and egress for quick ambulance accessibility
Injury Ice
Ice water/Electrolytes
water bottles to monitor fluid intake
Shaded tent
Injury table
Complete Med Kit/trainers bag
Cold tubs (or quick access for heat related issues)
AED
BP cuff
PRE Practice/pre Season physical exam for each player
weight of each player, fluid intake monitoring, etc
In addition
ALL coaches must have CURRENT CPR/FIRST AID AED Certification
Heat index is to be monitored before AND during training session. Not by the coach! Then altered.
depending on the school you might have more. But this is the basic setup. On top of this the athletic trainer is monitoring the session and observing Players for signs of injury or stress. Then stepping in and preventing many issues from becoming serious. GOOD coaches and departments want this because it frees them of the responsibility of medical issues. Good trainers fight for their athletes and advocate for them. Good coaches seek to have quality training sessions under the most optimum conditions In order to protect their players not endanger them.
Did this coach and club have any of this? No they didn’t.
What happened here is at best gross negligence resulting in the PREVENTABLE death of a child, and at worst criminal. Yes it’s not college and only club but that should not excuse this. If you want to train in a pandemic under extreme heat then THE COACH AND CLUB need to have protocols in place.
Athletic Trainer is present with the following:
Cell phone
Emergency plan
Field map/ ingress and egress for quick ambulance accessibility
Injury Ice
Ice water/Electrolytes
water bottles to monitor fluid intake
Shaded tent
Injury table
Complete Med Kit/trainers bag
Cold tubs (or quick access for heat related issues)
AED
BP cuff
PRE Practice/pre Season physical exam for each player
weight of each player, fluid intake monitoring, etc
In addition
ALL coaches must have CURRENT CPR/FIRST AID AED Certification
Heat index is to be monitored before AND during training session. Not by the coach! Then altered.
depending on the school you might have more. But this is the basic setup. On top of this the athletic trainer is monitoring the session and observing Players for signs of injury or stress. Then stepping in and preventing many issues from becoming serious. GOOD coaches and departments want this because it frees them of the responsibility of medical issues. Good trainers fight for their athletes and advocate for them. Good coaches seek to have quality training sessions under the most optimum conditions In order to protect their players not endanger them.
Did this coach and club have any of this? No they didn’t.
What happened here is at best gross negligence resulting in the PREVENTABLE death of a child, and at worst criminal. Yes it’s not college and only club but that should not excuse this. If you want to train in a pandemic under extreme heat then THE COACH AND CLUB need to have protocols in place.
All parties involved failed miserably from the decision have practice that morning from deciding to go.
We as parents need to stop and start thinking for ourselves again when it comes to the safety of our kids. Many of us have thrown caution to the wind because we don’t want our dd/da to lose their spot just because the coach may be mad about xyz.
think about things you have approved that you knew deep down wasn’t right.
**in no way shape or form am I blaming the parents but too many of us are silent when we get that email about a game on turf in high heat and we all show up, ready to warm
up.
We as parents need to stop and start thinking for ourselves again when it comes to the safety of our kids. Many of us have thrown caution to the wind because we don’t want our dd/da to lose their spot just because the coach may be mad about xyz.
think about things you have approved that you knew deep down wasn’t right.
**in no way shape or form am I blaming the parents but too many of us are silent when we get that email about a game on turf in high heat and we all show up, ready to warm
up.
I agree with all of this and what you describe is certainly a standard that should be adhered to. I'm assuming that you can 100% verify the words I've highlighted?
Arizona will be having state sanctioned games this weekend where some games will be played in the heat of the day. Many games will be played early in the morning and after the sun goes down, but enough will be played between 11 am and 4 pm, hottest part of the AZ day. This is not uncommon in AZ. I wonder how this unfortunate tragedy will impact play, oversight, etc over the weekend.
suzysoccer1
SILVER
Very familiar with AZ. Worked their for a few years in the 90’s.
The Then altered is misprint. No idea how I wrote that. Good catch. The point there was that coaches should not have any ultimate decision making power with should we play or return to play guidelines. Input yes, final say NO.
The did they have any of this? No.
Can I verify that? No I can’t. But I’m not writing a police report or news article. I’m speaking IMO as an athletic trainer for 30 years. That coaches don’t bring these items.
I don’t see this tragedy changing one damn thing about games being played in excessive heat going forward.
Soccermaverick
SILVER ELITE
DJ Durkin was at workout where Jordan McNair was carted off, according to summary released by Maryland
Third-year Maryland football coach DJ Durkin was present at the May 29 workout when redshirt freshman offensive lineman Jordan McNair was hospitalized, according to a summary of events released by …
www.baltimoresun.com
May 29, 2018: Offensive lineman Jordan McNair is hospitalized after showing signs of heatstroke and exhaustion while participating in a team workout. McNair has difficulty finishing a set of 110-yard sprints and is found to have a body temperature of 106 degrees at a local hospital. Sources later tell ESPN.com that McNair did not finish the runs on his own strength and was eventually walked around the practice field before being taken for treatment.
After evaluating McNair at the football facilities, EMT responders call in a "male patient with a seizure," and McNair is transported to Washington Adventist Hospital.
June 13, 2018: McNair dies in the hospital at age 19. The cause of death has since been determined to be heatstroke.
I appreciate you sharing this.
I would venture to guess a good majority of socal clubs and high schools don't have or use any where near the 20 things or so listed especially for normal routine training.
The youth sports sanctioning bodies are not even that through and tournaments disregard some of it. The former ussda and Ussf do many of those but trainers where not always present even though "required" at all youth games.
Good to educate but throwing blame around can wait out of respect for all the parties involved, should there be some changes yes but it has to be by all parties (facilities, sanctioning bodies, parents, tournaments, clubs, coaches,admin, etc) not just singling out one or the other .
Would like to see more study and facts presented in this particular case before jumping to conclusions and what measures that everyone can take so the risks are minimized for everyone going forward. You have provided some of so that's helpful and appreciated
As a parent hopefully I have taught and educated my kids enough on the risks involved in the activities they choose to participate in. If they are not old enough to make those decisions yet the buck stops at us.
suzysoccer1
SILVER
If I can push back somewhat to what you say as to the assessment of blame. This is an issue I’m deeply invested in. I’ve watched many athletes come close to death, 2 pass away, either to trauma, spine and cervical, stroke, overdose, heat illness and more. It’s devastating to not be able to help more, but what’s worse is the family after. It’s terrible and soul crushing and something that as my kids play sports I even struggle with. The should we or shouldn’t we, what’s safe enough, etc.
The problem lies with the justification of risk. Even the best athletes steeped in knowledge cant be trusted to make decisions. They will always choose to play. We know this, that’s why you have protocols in place to prevent them from hurting themselves. Sanctioning bodies know better, clubs know better and coaches know better. This excuse that athletic medicine is a mystery is fiction. The excuse of no one has consistent medical services at the youth level is way past its expiration date. We need to change the narrative. If clubs can hire coaches, buy equipment, get fields, run social media accounts, recruit players, and cash checks then they can certainly handle basic life saving measures and basic athletic medicine. So yeah the blame is square in the club and coach. They scheduled it. They now assume ALL RISK, through their lack of responsibility. At every YNT camp there are Athletic trainers with physicians on call. I used to be one there. Why? Because those players are worth the financial investment for those services. At every other level your kids lives are worth the risks of a lawsuit. Clubs will not pay upfront costs for services that save lives in the hopes that it will all work out. Clubs will not pay the coaches legal fee, most coaches have no personal liability insurance. Coaches need to think about this hard next time. Is it worth your house? Your savings? Your career? To have a scrimmage that kills a kid. If is it worth it to hold a practice during a pandemic? The answer is NO. At the end of the day I’m pissed. This is bullshit, lives are ruined over a game. It’s not worth it. It is preventable. Like you stated maybe other facts come to light, even if they do it does not change the fact that this shouldn’t happen. And it’s sure as shit shouldn’t happen on a soccer field to a 17 year old.
Yeah I get your point of view and you have some great insight and experience to share that most of us don't have so thanks for sharing that.
At the same time the city or facilities management permitted those activities for that club and others that same day. The sanctioning bodies or the leagues there memembers of dont have all the protocols you mentioned, all the coaches don't have those certifications or training, there are not athletic trainers at normal Club trainings, etc so it's not just 1-2 areas that need improvement, I'm looking at the whole not just a couple of parts to focus on before making any assessment or judgements.
For example when the air quality is not up to standard or unhealthy the facilities my son uses for school training get closed. He doesn't know the air is not healthy so can't assume the risk. He does know when it's 100+ out that running hard may not be best choice and will wait until it cools now later, will find somewhere cooler indoor on a treadmill, or just will postpone until the conditions improve.
I'm sure just about everyone wish's they could have done more and helped in some way. Hopefully, everyone can learn something and strive for a better understanding to minimize risks, everyone not just a singular club or particular coach. I have no affiliation with any of the parties involved and want to try to educate myself more on the subject while at the same time showing respect to those that are mourning.
whatithink
GOLD
Its not actually that common in AZ to play from 12 to 6 in August. Most years clubs close down for June & July. There's no league or tournament play. Teams come back early if they are doing Surf, but its pretty mellow - pre-season stuff and maybe a scrimmage if they are lucky.
The state league play-in games are scheduled this coming weekend, and they have games scheduled at 12 and then the next ones are at 6. The Desert Cup over Labor weekend every year breaks from 12 to 6.
ASA have scheduled games this weekend in their scrimmage fest in the afternoon. That is very unusual. I see they are also promoting something from Banner health on their site and managing the heat. IMV, they are being idiots. There is literally zero need to do it at that time.
Clubs call off practices due to excessive heat. When the kids do practice, they take breaks constantly. I've seen kids this summer - multiple teenagers on the same team getting erratic (unsteady on their feed, head hurting, not being able to kick it into a pug from 10 feet). There's a scramble for space at the moment because public parks are closed and the primary venues in N Phoenix/Scottsdale won't allow full contact (still). So where clubs can get in, they are starting practice way too early for this heat, i.e. from 4/4:30, to fit as many teams in as possible.
Soccermaverick
SILVER ELITE
Wrong... The club and coach are responsible. They have the authority and the responsibility... you can delegate responsibility but not authority.
Pandering to the whole group is responsible and there is blame to go around is cowardly and will cause this to happen again.
Adults have a legal responsibility to protect children. The club and coach held this event. The club had the authority to hold the event. They got the field space for the coach. The coach had the responsibility to ensure the kids were safe.
We are not talking about someone breaking a leg. We are talking about temperatures no child should be playing in. The club and coach were neglecting their responsibility by holding a practice in 110+ heat.
Two pieces of paper could have prevented this. A simple risk matrix and a safety brief.
Sheriff Joe
DA
Horrible, but how many of us have seen players go down with heat exhaustion and what were you and your kid doing there? How many times has your kid burned their feet on the turf? There was a thread a while back on how to stop kids getting their feet too hot.
We all have done it I would imagine.
Terrible situation that the parents will have to live with.
We all have done it I would imagine.
Terrible situation that the parents will have to live with.
What are the realistic limits for practicing in the heat?
My daughter did keeper training Monday at 5:30 PM with the temperature of 100 at start, 94 at end. She drank about 32 OZ of water over a 2 hour period, starting about 60 minutes before. She was with 2 other keepers and there were breaks. I walked the park during this time and it felt fine to be outside.
Our team cancelled practice last night. It was going to be 103 at 6 PM when starting, 96 at end. It would have been a light practice, getting some touches, no running.
Thoughts?
My daughter did keeper training Monday at 5:30 PM with the temperature of 100 at start, 94 at end. She drank about 32 OZ of water over a 2 hour period, starting about 60 minutes before. She was with 2 other keepers and there were breaks. I walked the park during this time and it felt fine to be outside.
Our team cancelled practice last night. It was going to be 103 at 6 PM when starting, 96 at end. It would have been a light practice, getting some touches, no running.
Thoughts?