Ponderable

Wez said:
What do poor people have to do with the National debt? 40+% of taxpayers pay nothing because their income is too low to pay taxes.

What's wrong with skewing the tax system, like our progressive tax system does, toward those who can most afford to pay taxes?

A flat tax punishes the poor and benefits the rich, is that what you want?
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That depends on the details.

We currently have a government and election system that is thoroughly in the pockets of big money. If we completely scrap the income tax system and replace it with another revenue-generating process, who do you think will get the biggest favors?
 
espola said:
That depends on the details.

We currently have a government and election system that is thoroughly in the pockets of big money. If we completely scrap the income tax system and replace it with another revenue-generating process, who do you think will get the biggest favors?
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Let the consumers decide with a consumption tax. How about 22%?
 
Wez said:
If your goal is to cut tax revenue to the Gov., across the board, mostly from the rich, and get more from lower incomes, than a flat tax is what you want.
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Poppycock Wez.

The rates can be changed if necessary, just as they are changed now.
The rich will continue to pay far more than the middle class.
Do the math..
10% of $55,000. is $5,500.00
10% of 1,000,000.00 is $100,000.00
No need for tax attorney's to figure all the "write offs"....
 
Let me explain in very simple terms, the actual calculations are more complex.

We know the lowest incomes, after standars deductions and exemptions, pay nothing.

We know lower middle class pays about 10-15% of their net income.

Mid class about 20%.

Upper Mid about 28%.

High income earners about 35%.

Again, rough numbers because of the many variables involved.

The super rich whose income is derived largely from tax free bonds and stock dividends, pay much lower rates because of the incentives designed to make investment in the economy (stocks and municipal bonds) worthwhile.

So a flat tax punishes low and Mid earners and benefits high earners, relative to our current system.

If the intent of a flat tax system is to take away the preferential tax treatment of municipal bonds and stock dividends and make the super rich pay much higher taxes, than the likely result would be they invest overseas in Countries that have more attractive tax systems.
 
Wez said:
Let me explain in very simple terms, the actual calculations are more complex.

We know the lowest incomes, after standars deductions and exemptions, pay nothing.

We know lower middle class pays about 10-15% of their net income.

Mid class about 20%.

Upper Mid about 28%.

High income earners about 35%.

Again, rough numbers because of the many variables involved.

The super rich whose income is derived largely from tax free bonds and stock dividends, pay much lower rates because of the incentives designed to make investment in the economy (stocks and municipal bonds) worthwhile.

So a flat tax punishes low and Mid earners and benefits high earners, relative to our current system.

If the intent of a flat tax system is to take away the preferential tax treatment of municipal bonds and stock dividends and make the super rich pay much higher taxes, than the likely result would be they invest overseas in Countries that have more attractive tax systems.
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The countries that have attractive tax systems, already have investments from the super rich....
The argument coming from the progressives is the top 10% should pay their fair share, the 10% now pay 70% of the income taxes.
40% of us pay the remaining 30% of taxes. What is more fair than a flat tax?
For the flat tax to work the tax code must be thrown out.
The poor have no need for a tax code. The tax code is written to protect the wealthy.

I gotta believe that most folks, including the "high earners", would welcome a straight 15% or 20% or 25% tax on income.
 
Lion Eyes said:
The countries that have attractive tax systems, already have investments from the super rich....
The argument coming from the progressives is the top 10% should pay their fair share, the 10% now pay 70% of the income taxes.
40% of us pay the remaining 30% of taxes. What is more fair than a flat tax?
For the flat tax to work the tax code must be thrown out.
The poor have no need for a tax code. The tax code is written to protect the wealthy.

I gotta believe that most folks, including the "high earners", would welcome a straight 15% or 20% or 25% tax on income.
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What countries have attractive tax systems? Why are they attractive?
 
Lion Eyes said:
The countries that have attractive tax systems, already have investments from the super rich....
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Do you want that trend to continue by making our tax code less attactive?

Lion Eyes said:
The argument coming from the progressives is the top 10% should pay their fair share, the 10% now pay 70% of the income taxes.
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True, but that's not what I'm saying. Most complaints about taxes are ill informed.

Lion Eyes said:
40% of us pay the remaining 30% of taxes. What is more fair than a flat tax?
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"Fair", not for the Mid incomes. I just explained it above, do you need to reread it?

Lion Eyes said:
I gotta believe that most folks, including the "high earners", would welcome a straight 15% or 20% or 25% tax on income.
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"Most" being a term that needs definition because, as I've already stated above, Mid income gets to shoulder more of the tax burden, compared to our current tax system.

If your goal is to reduce overall taxes going to the Gov. by slashing what the high earners pay, than a flat tax system is what you want.
 
Oh look what Mr. "Free Market" Teabagger Rick Snyder is up to:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-michigan-idUSKCN11S20R

""Tesla Motors Inc Thursday sued Michigan Governor Rick Snyder and other state officials in federal court over the state's refusal to allow the Palo Alto, California automaker to sell vehicles directly to consumers.

A spokesman for Snyder said the governor had no comment.

"Unfortunately, the local auto dealers and local manufacturers have made clear that they oppose any law that would allow Tesla to operate in Michigan," Tesla's statement said. "As one leading legislator told Tesla: the local auto dealers do not want you here. The local manufacturers do not want you here. So you’re not going to be here.""
 
,
espola said:
What countries have attractive tax systems? Why are they attractive?
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Ask Wezzer, he posted it, it's one of his argument against a flat tax, not mine.
Trust me if the rich can move money over seas or off shore to save taxes, they will they are & they have.
 
Wez said:
Oh look what Mr. "Free Market" Teabagger Rick Snyder is up to:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-michigan-idUSKCN11S20R

""Tesla Motors Inc Thursday sued Michigan Governor Rick Snyder and other state officials in federal court over the state's refusal to allow the Palo Alto, California automaker to sell vehicles directly to consumers.

A spokesman for Snyder said the governor had no comment.

"Unfortunately, the local auto dealers and local manufacturers have made clear that they oppose any law that would allow Tesla to operate in Michigan," Tesla's statement said. "As one leading legislator told Tesla: the local auto dealers do not want you here. The local manufacturers do not want you here. So you’re not going to be here.""
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Ah yes. Taxpayer subsidized Tesla
 
Wez said:
Do you want that trend to continue by making our tax code less attactive?

It's your statement, not mine... the rich will move their money where ever they need to in order to save money on taxes.

True, but that's not what I'm saying. Most complaints about taxes are ill informed.
Most?

Fair", not for the Mid incomes. I just explained it above, do you need to reread it?

If the % paid is less than they are paying now, then how can that be?

"Most" being a term that needs definition because, as I've already stated above, Mid income gets to shoulder more of the tax burden, compared to our current tax system.

Self employed folks get taxed on the business and then get taxed on profit and then have to pay with holding. I'd gladly pay 20 -25%.

If your goal is to reduce overall taxes going to the Gov. by slashing what the high earners pay, than a flat tax system is what you want.
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Any proof of that?
 
Wez said:
Stand by your own statements dude...
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I got your 'dude' hangin'...
I responded to your post Wezzer, but if you need help....well I'm your Huckleberry.:cool:

How much money is in off shore accounts? Billions? Trillions? I've read numbers like 32 TRILLION...
"In 2011, states lost approximately $39.8 billion in tax revenues from corporations and wealthy individuals who sheltered money in foreign tax havens. Multinational corporations account for more than $26 billion of the lost tax revenue, and wealthy individuals account for the rest."
http://www.uspirgedfund.org/reports/usf/hidden-cost-offshore-tax-havens
 
Lion Eyes said:
I got your 'dude' hangin'...
I responded to your post Wezzer, but if you need help....well I'm your Huckleberry.:cool:
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Talkin tough like that must really make you feel good, you do it a lot. Internet tough guys... and please stop using that term from the great movie "Tombstone", it soils it's value when you keep using it.

Lion Eyes said:
How much money is in off shore accounts? Billions? Trillions? I've read numbers like 32 TRILLION...
"In 2011, states lost approximately $39.8 billion in tax revenues from corporations and wealthy individuals who sheltered money in foreign tax havens. Multinational corporations account for more than $26 billion of the lost tax revenue, and wealthy individuals account for the rest."
http://www.uspirgedfund.org/reports/usf/hidden-cost-offshore-tax-havens
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Wow, thanks for alerting me to the existence of offshore money. Please now link it to a discussion about a flat tax system. I clearly defined my statements, it seems like you are just throwing out random bits of information...
 
Wez said:
Talkin tough like that must really make you feel good, you do it a lot. Internet tough guys... and please stop using that term from the great movie "Tombstone", it soils it's value when you keep using it.



Wow, thanks for alerting me to the existence of offshore money. Please now link it to a discussion about a flat tax system. I clearly defined my statements, it seems like you are just throwing out random bits of information...
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DUDE!
You ask me to "stand by statement", so I did.
Moving money off shore is in reference to the rich moving their money to countries with "attractive tax systems"
32 TRILLION DOLLARS...
Keep taxing them 'till they are completely fed up and then you have the drinking in a bar story in real life.
You know the one where the rich guy who pays 59% of the of the bill and then gets his ass stomped? It's a good analogy.
I didn't think I would frighten you by mocking your use of the word dude.
I'll unhang your dude....I'll try to remember how sensitive you are. Dude.
 
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