Ponderable

tenacious said:
I'll repeat my main problem with this. Healthcare is one of those things that doesn't work well in a capitalist marketplace.
First off let's keep in in the real world. If your kid were to have cancer, you can't put off that operation. You can't negotiate. You can't go in there and say Ima have to put my kids operation off for six months... unless you give me 10% off. Everyone knows that we take human life as more important then that. And this puts insurers and healthcare providers in the position to take advantage of the government. Regardless of how the guys in the ivory tower say it works... boots on the ground, taxpayers are getting stuck paying inflated costs.

Second let's just take a look around the world. We're paying more, but not really seeing many returns. At least we're not living longer or happier lives then you see in comparable first world country. France, Japan, Germany... they are all getting a comparable care, for percentage points less of their GDP. Especially when compared to what we had before Obamacare where the US was spending 17%+ of it's GDP on healthcare, vs European models where the governments take a hands on approach to pricing. There is no question that in practice, free market heath care has underperformed.
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Maintenance and catastrophic are not the same.
 
tenacious said:
I'll repeat my main problem with this. Healthcare is one of those things that doesn't work well in a capitalist marketplace.
First off let's keep in in the real world. If your kid were to have cancer, you can't put off that operation. You can't negotiate. You can't go in there and say Ima have to put my kids operation off for six months... unless you give me 10% off. Everyone knows that we take human life as more important then that. And this puts insurers and healthcare providers in the position to take advantage of the government. Regardless of how the guys in the ivory tower say it works... boots on the ground, taxpayers are getting stuck paying inflated costs.

Second let's just take a look around the world. We're paying more, but not really seeing many returns. At least we're not living longer or happier lives then you see in comparable first world country. France, Japan, Germany... they are all getting a comparable care, for percentage points less of their GDP. Especially when compared to what we had before Obamacare where the US was spending 17%+ of it's GDP on healthcare, vs European models where the governments take a hands on approach to pricing. There is no question that in practice, free market heath care has underperformed.
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Comparisons are fun. You should apply the relevant numbers like the fact that the U.S. has 2.5 physicians per 1000. Simple econ again. Supply up, price down (just like money supply). Supply down, price up (jlms). Simple. The countries you cheer have comporable physician/population ratios for a much smaller population then the U.S. Broken record, I know. Broken system to hear you tell it too. Comparisons are fun arenʻt they? I think you should keep doing them.
 
Bernie Sanders said:
Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that the government should force everyone to buy insurance. That is the idea behind Obamacare.
If you want to force everyone to buy insurance, why would'nt it be a very simple and cheap, catastrophic plan with a high deductable?
Your argument seems to be that we need something to cover the very expensive situations.
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Because like FHA, the government likes discounting goods and services for certain industries and demographics. Taking in less money then is required to support a program, whether by deductible or fee, has failed to deliver the intended results for the masses. When the system, not surprisingly fails, the clueless public is quick to blame the private sector for pulling out of those programs because they were only focused on profits or a lack thereof.
 
Lion Eyes said:
Look at what the government has done for our veterans and their health care needs...
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I agree. There are whole segments of the pop that are getting less then they deserve. Vets being a big one.

Imagine if government stopped dicking around and coming up with excuses and got to work. Making life better for vets. Making life better for all of us.
 
Here's another article that's a thought provoking read. Sounds like the Pope is calling us out...

Catholic Herald said:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...y-being-against-refugees-and-other-religions/

Pope Francis: You can’t defend Christianity by being ‘against refugees and other religions’

Answering questions from young people in the group this morning, the pope said, “the sickness or, you can say the sin, that Jesus condemns most is hypocrisy,” which is precisely what is happening when someone claims to be a Christian but does not live according to the teaching of Christ.

“You cannot be a Christian without living like a Christian,” he said. “You cannot be a Christian without practicing the Beatitudes. You cannot be a Christian without doing what Jesus teaches us in Matthew 25.” This is a reference to Christ’s injunction to help the needy by such works of mercy as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and welcoming the stranger.

“It’s hypocrisy to call yourself a Christian and chase away a refugee or someone seeking help, someone who is hungry or thirsty, toss out someone who is in need of my help,” he said. “If I say I am Christian, but do these things, I’m a hypocrite.”
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tenacious said:
I agree. There are whole segments of the pop that are getting less then they deserve. Vets being a big one.

Imagine if government stopped dicking around and coming up with excuses and got to work. Making life better for vets. Making life better for all of us.
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Vets are small portion of the population. They have sacrificed for our country.
The have earned and deserve the best treatment available.
They even have their own government entity that can't care for them properly.
What makes you think the government can cover 323 million properly?
 
Bernie Sanders said:
Lets just say, for the sake of argument, that the government should force everyone to buy insurance. That is the idea behind Obamacare.
If you want to force everyone to buy insurance, why would'nt it be a very simple and cheap, catastrophic plan with a high deductable?
Your argument seems to be that we need something to cover the very expensive situations.
Click to expand...
We need to keep people healthy, not step in as a last resort.
 
Lion Eyes said:
Vets are small portion of the population. They have sacrificed for our country.
The have earned and deserve the best treatment available.
They even have their own government entity that can't care for them properly.
What makes you think the government can cover 323 million properly?
Click to expand...

What makes me think we can come up with a way to improve access and reduce costs? Well... all our competitor nations sure seem to have figured out how to keep cost down and quality of care up. I mean good grief... the European Union has over 500 million residents and they are all getting affordable access to healthcare that is on par with what you see here in America.

So perhaps rather then enabling our government's leaders poor performance with knee jerk excuses about how the best we can finish is last, maybe a better course of action would be to start to demand better
.
 
Wez said:
You have to cover the entire population or it won't work. Free market healthcare has been failing America.
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You do not have to cover everyone, those who wish to be covered ..Pay !
What you are mandating is having damn near 60 % of the United States
( That work ) pay for the other 40 % ( That aren't ), that's quite a burden
if ya ask me...
 
nononono said:
You do not have to cover everyone, those who wish to be covered ..Pay !
What you are mandating is having damn near 60 % of the United States
( That work ) pay for the other 40 % ( That aren't ), that's quite a burden
if ya ask me...
Click to expand...

You pay for those who aren't covered anyway, through medicaid programs. The most successful health systems cover all citizens and control costs. Yes, the VA has it's problems, but gets some stuff right. We should work together to solve this common problem.
 
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