Opinions?

[justneededaname]

While I do not think the DA has been the disaster that some other people do, I believe the DA has outlived its usefulness and should be disbanded.

At u13 and 14 MLS academies can play in flight one of their local competitive league. At U15 and above they can have their own league. If they feel they need a few more teams to round things out then they can invite the teams that they want to join.

On the boys side the existing national championship series and tournament system can fill in the gaps for college recruiting. On the girls side ECNL was doing just fine and can go back to doing just fine.

With that system I doubt we will have any more or any fewer diamonds identified, but at least we would have one less boogeyman to point the blame at.

The things I think would make the biggest difference:

- Solidarity payments to all clubs, not just MLS (https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019...g-compensation-claims-and-solidarity-payments)
- Attending MLS and USL games so the teams have more money to pay better salaries
- Watching MLS on TV so the league gets a better TV contract so teams have more money to pay better salaries
- Promote the heck out of any time an American player is sold for an amount of money that sounds similar to a football, basketball, or baseball contract (I know that is not the same as the player's salary, but it is the soccer number everyone talks about)
- Celebrate when that good kid at your local club gets a spot at an MLS academy, a USNT look, or a spot at a European academy.

 

[MWN]

While I do not think the DA has been the disaster that some other people do, I believe the DA has outlived its usefulness and should be disbanded.

At u13 and 14 MLS academies can play in flight one of their local competitive league. At U15 and above they can have their own league. If they feel they need a few more teams to round things out then they can invite the teams that they want to join.

On the boys side the existing national championship series and tournament system can fill in the gaps for college recruiting. On the girls side ECNL was doing just fine and can go back to doing just fine.

With that system I doubt we will have any more or any fewer diamonds identified, but at least we would have one less boogeyman to point the blame at.

The things I think would make the biggest difference:

- Solidarity payments to all clubs, not just MLS (https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019...g-compensation-claims-and-solidarity-payments)
- Attending MLS and USL games so the teams have more money to pay better salaries
- Watching MLS on TV so the league gets a better TV contract so teams have more money to pay better salaries
- Promote the heck out of any time an American player is sold for an amount of money that sounds similar to a football, basketball, or baseball contract (I know that is not the same as the player's salary, but it is the soccer number everyone talks about)
- Celebrate when that good kid at your local club gets a spot at an MLS academy, a USNT look, or a spot at a European academy.

The DA has begun to evolve (there is still a long way to go). This year marks the first year we have two divisions on the boys U18/U19 level: Top Tier and Lower Tier. The concept being the MLS teams with the larger budgets for residential and a few others (FC Dallas) get invites to the Top Tier. The lower tier will have the also rans. It is changing to a model where the MLS teams will be playing themselves and consolidating talent (as it should be).

 

[justneededaname]

The DA has begun to evolve (there is still a long way to go). This year marks the first year we have two divisions on the boys U18/U19 level: Top Tier and Lower Tier. The concept being the MLS teams with the larger budgets for residential and a few others (FC Dallas) get invites to the Top Tier. The lower tier will have the also rans. It is changing to a model where the MLS teams will be playing themselves and consolidating talent (as it should be).

This has also been applied to the DA Cup groups at u15 and above. I think the easiest thing to do is cut the DA2 clubs and just have the DA1 league and let the MLS run it. But once you cut the clubs out of DA1 at the older ages there is little incentive to keep the youngers, so jettisoning the whole thing is appropriate.

 

[espola]

This has also been applied to the DA Cup groups at u15 and above. I think the easiest thing to do is cut the DA2 clubs and just have the DA1 league and let the MLS run it. But once you cut the clubs out of DA1 at the older ages there is little incentive to keep the youngers, so jettisoning the whole thing is appropriate.

How many MLS teams are there? Perhaps even more germane, what proportion of the US population lives within commuting distance to MLS practice grounds?

 

[Grace T.]

How many MLS teams are there? Perhaps even more germane, what proportion of the US population lives within commuting distance to MLS practice grounds?

At the way the MLS is expanding, every mid sized city will have a tier one MLS team before long. Sacramento for God's sake!!! Anchorage, Cheyenne and Augusta can't be far behind.

We may all disagree on certain aspects of the problem, but I think we have a consensus on one thing: the MLS sucks, at least as far as promoting player development is concerned. Sure, we needed a closed loop system when the MLS was just starting out to get the league going and cement professional soccer into the United States (and Canada). But now it seems to be doing more harm than good, at least as currently structured.

 

[outside!]

On the girls side ECNL was doing just fine and can go back to doing just fine.

I am going to disagree with this statement. ECNL was not doing just fine in SoCal. They were a corrupt monopoly that actively prevented clubs with teams that were just as competitive from joining. It took the formation of GDA to open their eyes in order to stay in business. Note that the same people are still running ECNL and I would not trust them just because they became more inclusive to save their asses. If GDA would not have made so many bonehead moves (they are just as corrupt), ECNL would have become 2nd tier to GDA. I don't think SoCal needs ECNL or GDA. We have enough teams to have our own elite league. With less travel, the expenses would fall and open more opportunities for players from families without the resources to play in the current GDA/ECNL BS system of traveling out of state for league games.

 

[End of the Line]

I disagree.

The DA League was created over 10 years ago because US Soccer understood it has a major problem, which is:

1. The Professional Leagues (MLS and USL) have substandard training and economics model.
2. The Professional Leagues (MLS and USL) lacks effective youth training academies.
3. The Professional Leagues (MLS and USL) have no financial incentive to invest in youth players because of the lack of Solidarity and Training compensation, which the Players selfishly oppose.

Because the rest of the developed soccer world doesn't have 1, 2 or 3 holding player development back, the DA was created in an attempt to jump start higher level youth development. Its not a "silver bullet" because of 1 and 2 above.

US Soccer has now realized that the MLS and USL are not capable of fixing this, as a result, the push is now to pave the way for players to exit the US as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, on this front US Soccer doesn't have any weight because of Article 19. We are in a catch-22 for men. The rest of the world with their more fully developed professional and youth academies have kids go pro at age 15/16. Our 16 year olds are stuck on some U17 team playing with good (but not elite) cannon fodder. By the time our kids reach 18, they are already 2-4 years behind the development curve.

This is not a DA problem per se, but the reality of have a system that contains no monetary incentives.

The DA has never been the problem because its simply a league created to fix a deeper problem (lack of financial incentive to develop youth players). The problem is the MLS and the Players Association that fights against Solidarity and Training Fees. The good news is that US Soccer is no longer standing in the way like it did under Klinsman, see, https://the18.com/soccer-news/jurgen-klinsmann-mls-criticism and https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/01/miguel-almiron-sebastian-giovinco-luciano-acosta

The other good news is the MLS is "FINALLY" getting it: https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/mls...e-a-selling-league/1t0nqp9ilsaay16bud5gjjajfl

Once the MLS and US Soccer go to war with the Players then things will change.

With regard to you other question "why should the effect on the female's side be any different?" The short answer is the economics of the men's game and the female game internationally are vast distances apart. There is little to no money in women's professional soccer, so aside from a few European leagues, the U.S. College system remains the best post youth development system for women at this time. European academies (subsidized by the men's programs) are starting to make inroads.

The DA, ECNL, NPL, etc. exist to showcase female talent for college. So, in a nutshell, the proper path for International grade (i.e. potentially help us win a world cup) is:

Boys/Mens Path = Youth (DA/ODP/NPL) --> Professional Academy @ 16/17 --> Pro Team --> USMNT
Girls/Women's Path = Youth (DA/ECNL) --> College -- Semi-Pro Team (NWSL) -- USWNT

... and let me add that its all Pay-To-Play because there is no financial incentive for the Youth and Professional Academy (unless, that Professional Academy is outside the US).

The U.S. has always faced all of the challenges you have described, yet the MNT has never been in worse shape. That falls squarely on the DA. The only way to improve as a soccer country is for more kids to play it more often and for more years, but everything about the DA structure causes fewer kids to play the sport, fewer to play it at a high level, and more to give it up at an earlier age. The only thing that has changed since the MNT would at least make it out of the group stage at the WC is that the DA has driven boatloads of kids out of the sport and impeded the growth and development of those who didn't.

Furthermore, no thanks if the key to soccer greatness requires: (1) having 15 year olds signing pro contracts; (2) making kids live in full time soccer academies from the age of 12, where most of them will ultimately fail as soccer players and many will become roadkill in life; and (3) solidarity payments that essentially allow youth clubs to hold players hostage unless they get a cut of the kid's value. The whole concept of solidarity payments is just so stupid. Seriously, someone can't work in their chosen profession unless and until every club they played in from the age of 12 forward gets a check? It is crazy that people come to this forum complaining that a college providing $300,000 or more in educational benefits constitutes indentured servitude, yet they nod their heads reflexively up and down about the awesomeness of a solidarity payment system that actually is indentured servitude. There's a reason someone can work as a doctor without a cut of their initial salary going to their 6th grade teacher. There's a reason we don't have 12 year old kids who show "great potential" attend as full time youth medical school academies for free and then finance them by forcing hospitals to pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars before they can hire them. There's a reason medical school isn't free and we don't make medical practice groups finance them by paying schools a huge cut of what would otherwise be the doctor's salary. There's a reason the philharmonic isn't required to pay someone's 6th grade piano teacher before they're allowed to play a musical instrument. The reason is that it's the dumbest idea ever.

 

[oh canada]

With any program, the program shouldn't get full credit bc the family and individual play a large part. Oh Canada said there were no players that came through there. According to Wikipedia, Pulisic was at a DA club from 08-15 and McKennie was at FC Dallas (A DA club) 09-16. Those are a significant amount of years. You made me look it up even though I said I wouldn't. Thanks Espola.

Kinda making my point. McKennie is still TBD. Just because he scores a bunch of goals against Cuba doesn't make him a superstar. And he hasn't done anything yet at Schalke. Pulisic has a very unique background beyond DA--Germany, Father a pro coach, etc. so while he has the achievements, and I root for him (glad to see Lampard finally giving him a shot), I don't use him as proof that the DA system (aka "league") has succeeded developing talent better than how Donovan (a Canadian citizen btw), Dempsey, Howard, et al. grew up. By way of comparison, in the same time, Hirving Lozano (24yrs) grew up in the Pachuca system and has definitely become an impact player for Napoli and MX. Josh Sargent could be an example, he is still young and having success, but also TBD.

until we can give MLS teams a genuine incentive to invest in players, the only money at the table belongs to the parents of little Jimmy and Jenny.

Correct. And therein lies the problem and reason why soccer is the most discriminatory "big" sport in this country. Even more so on the girls side.

By "their" I am going to guess you mean the public high school to which they are assigned based on their home address. While I have no data to support this, I expect this number is actually significantly smaller. Zion, for example, is from North Carolina. He went to a private high school in South Carolina (I expect they have a great basketball program).

If you look at the top basketball 10 prospects on 24/7 sports (https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool), nine of them go to private schools and one goes to a public school (that is definitely not in the inner-city). One goes to a private school, Prolific Prep, that sounds like the basketball equivalent of the Barca Academy.

Private or public school doesn't matter to my point. Basketball players have been attending private high schools for a long time. Love the movie "Hoop Dreams". Point is they are still playing their sport at the high school they attend in addition to AAU or whatever other club commitments they currently have...as it should be.

 

[focomoso]

Perhaps even more germane, what proportion of the US population lives within commuting distance to MLS practice grounds?

By my back of the napkin calculations, about a 3rd. (US population: roughly 330 million; metro areas with MLS teams: 110 million.)

 

[focomoso]

The U.S. has always faced all of the challenges you have described, yet the MNT has never been in worse shape. That falls squarely on the DA. The only way to improve as a soccer country is for more kids to play it more often and for more years...

Agreed, but I don't think the DA can do this. It's basketball, football (and a tiny bit baseball) that pull potential soccer stars away. Finding someone with the ability to be a world-class soccer player is a statistical anomaly. If most of the kids with potential play other sports, we'll never compete.

Furthermore, no thanks if the key to soccer greatness requires: ...

But this is exactly how it works in Europe. The kids with the most potential are identified early and put into pro academies. Most of them drop out but the few who make it are that much better. If developing world-class players is the goal, then this system seems to work pretty well, whether we like it or not.

 

[espola]

Agreed, but I don't think the DA can do this. It's basketball, football (and a tiny bit baseball) that pull potential soccer stars away. Finding someone with the ability to be a world-class soccer player is a statistical anomaly. If most of the kids with potential play other sports, we'll never compete.


But this is exactly how it works in Europe. The kids with the most potential are identified early and put into pro academies. Most of them drop out but the few who make it are that much better. If developing world-class players is the goal, then this system seems to work pretty well, whether we like it or not.

Based on personal experience - the "good" players in the pre-high-school years were lured away by baseball, tennis, wrestling, and karate. On the other hand, there was a so-so BU12 goalkeeper who became a killer high school lacrosse player.

 

[Justus]

Agreed, but I don't think the DA can do this. It's basketball, football (and a tiny bit baseball) that pull potential soccer stars away. Finding someone with the ability to be a world-class soccer player is a statistical anomaly. If most of the kids with potential play other sports, we'll never compete.


But this is exactly how it works in Europe. The kids with the most potential are identified early and put into pro academies. Most of them drop out but the few who make it are that much better. If developing world-class players is the goal, then this system seems to work pretty well, whether we like it or not.

This system sucks!!! On the girls side it really sucks!!! We have a few Really Good Soccer Players at each age group (RGSPs or GOATs) in America. RGSPs are easy to see with an honest eye. We call them, "GOAT or a Can't miss recruit." Then we have the rest of the girls which we can call, Good Soccer Players (GSPs). The GSPs is the problem. You can't separate GSPs at an early age. We don't know which ones will become a RGSP. My dd is a GSP and a lot of times in the big games she becomes a RGSP and is a dangerous weapon to put one in at the right time. We also have a lot of rich parents with GSPs and Cash is King in this world we live in and I'm telling you, if you have some $$$ you can work the soccer system unfortunately

 

[Emma]

Kinda making my point. McKennie is still TBD. Just because he scores a bunch of goals against Cuba doesn't make him a superstar. And he hasn't done anything yet at Schalke. Pulisic has a very unique background beyond DA--Germany, Father a pro coach, etc. so while he has the achievements, and I root for him (glad to see Lampard finally giving him a shot), I don't use him as proof that the DA system (aka "league") has succeeded developing talent better than how Donovan (a Canadian citizen btw), Dempsey, Howard, et al. grew up. By way of comparison, in the same time, Hirving Lozano (24yrs) grew up in the Pachuca system and has definitely become an impact player for Napoli and MX. Josh Sargent could be an example, he is still young and having success, but also TBD.

McKennie, Pulisic, Sargent and Tyler all are between the age of 19-21. DA started in 2007. These boys were 7-9. They grew up with the DA system and their families. Before the DA, we had all your examples - but they were 40, 37, 36. There is no great talent between 36 and 21 with maybe Bradley at 32 years of age. The DA was created to find those kids and help them be recognized. It worked even though it's not perfect as we have all pointed to the flaws of it. There are at least 4 great players between the ages of 19-21 and a few more coming up through the pipeline. It's also accurate, those four players that grew up through the DA are still not at their peak yet because they have at least 6 more years to reach their peak as men.

They do need to find a way to make DA more accessible, cheaper and cast a wider net but whatever they are doing is at least creating some results whether you like the way they are handling things.

If Pulisic's dad did not think the DA system was sufficient for 7 years, he would have been able to pull his son and move to Europe for better training. With his dad's experience, he chose to leave his son in the DA system and let him flourish until he was ready for the next step.

As much as I dislike the lack of organization and the expense of DA, I do see results. We didn't have much there for almost two decades.

 

[Emma]

Oops...forgot how to use this forum for a moment. 2nd try.

McKennie, Pulisic, Sargent and Tyler all are between the age of 19-21. DA started in 2007. These boys were 7-9. They grew up with the DA system and their families. Before the DA, we had all your examples - but they were 40, 37, 36. There is no great talent between 36 and 21 with maybe Bradley at 32 years of age. The DA was created to find those kids and help them be recognized. It worked even though it's not perfect as we have all pointed to the flaws of it. There are at least 4 great players between the ages of 19-21 and a few more coming up through the pipeline. It's also accurate, those four players that grew up through the DA are still not at their peak yet because they have at least 6 more years to reach their peak as men.

They do need to find a way to make DA more accessible, cheaper and cast a wider net but whatever they are doing is at least creating some results whether you like the way they are handling things.

If Pulisic's dad did not think the DA system was sufficient for 7 years, he would have been able to pull his son and move to Europe for better training. With his dad's experience, he chose to leave his son in the DA system and let him flourish until he was ready for the next step.

As much as I dislike the lack of organization and the expense of DA, I do see results. We didn't have much there for almost two decades.

 

[Justus]

Oops...forgot how to use this forum for a moment. 2nd try.

McKennie, Pulisic, Sargent and Tyler all are between the age of 19-21. DA started in 2007. These boys were 7-9. They grew up with the DA system and their families. Before the DA, we had all your examples - but they were 40, 37, 36. There is no great talent between 36 and 21 with maybe Bradley at 32 years of age. The DA was created to find those kids and help them be recognized. It worked even though it's not perfect as we have all pointed to the flaws of it. There are at least 4 great players between the ages of 19-21 and a few more coming up through the pipeline. It's also accurate, those four players that grew up through the DA are still not at their peak yet because they have at least 6 more years to reach their peak as men.

They do need to find a way to make DA more accessible, cheaper and cast a wider net but whatever they are doing is at least creating some results whether you like the way they are handling things.

If Pulisic's dad did not think the DA system was sufficient for 7 years, he would have been able to pull his son and move to Europe for better training. With his dad's experience, he chose to leave his son in the DA system and let him flourish until he was ready for the next step.

As much as I dislike the lack of organization and the expense of DA, I do see results. We didn't have much there for almost two decades.

What results are you seeing Emma? Winning for the men to me would make it out of group play at World Cup and making a run. Not making World Cup games because you lose to Tobago is a complete failure and #1 reason for a re-boot and have folks fired. The girls have been winning so anything less than gold and world cup win is failure. I saw better woman teams this year but we got lucky on PKs, that's the only reason we won this year. The System is a mess to the core and that's why it will never work until we clean house

 

[Justus]

Lesson #1 Get over it, Rich Dad has more money than you
Lesson #2 Money is the root of most of the evil we see
Lesson #3 However, Money is not evil
Lesson #4 Money used as a tool for good is a good thing
Lesson #5 Not all Rich dads are assholes
Lesson #6 Not all Poor Dads are poor
Lesson #7 Not all Rich dads are rich

 

[espola]

Oops...forgot how to use this forum for a moment. 2nd try.

McKennie, Pulisic, Sargent and Tyler all are between the age of 19-21. DA started in 2007. These boys were 7-9. They grew up with the DA system and their families. Before the DA, we had all your examples - but they were 40, 37, 36. There is no great talent between 36 and 21 with maybe Bradley at 32 years of age. The DA was created to find those kids and help them be recognized. It worked even though it's not perfect as we have all pointed to the flaws of it. There are at least 4 great players between the ages of 19-21 and a few more coming up through the pipeline. It's also accurate, those four players that grew up through the DA are still not at their peak yet because they have at least 6 more years to reach their peak as men.

They do need to find a way to make DA more accessible, cheaper and cast a wider net but whatever they are doing is at least creating some results whether you like the way they are handling things.

If Pulisic's dad did not think the DA system was sufficient for 7 years, he would have been able to pull his son and move to Europe for better training. With his dad's experience, he chose to leave his son in the DA system and let him flourish until he was ready for the next step.

As much as I dislike the lack of organization and the expense of DA, I do see results. We didn't have much there for almost two decades.

We "didn't have much" except a nationwide ODP system at State and Regional levels and some youth national teams, along with a poorly-supported residency program in Florida - but we still qualified for the World Cup regularly. Outstanding players like those stated as examples of the success of the DA program would have bubbled to the top of the older ODP-YNT system as well. The DA has added nothing.

 

[oh canada]

There is no great talent between 36 and 21 with maybe Bradley at 32 years of age.

No disrespect, but with the second half of that sentence you lost all soccer talent identification credibility with me.

 

[Emma]

We "didn't have much" except a nationwide ODP system at State and Regional levels and some youth national teams, along with a poorly-supported residency program in Florida - but we still qualified for the World Cup regularly. Outstanding players like those stated as examples of the success of the DA program would have bubbled to the top of the older ODP-YNT system as well. The DA has added nothing.

I think the problem is that we were unable to find talent for a decade with the existing programs. US Soccer had to look for a different way to find or help further develop players and the DA did help with it. It's not complete and it needs improvements but it's giving us hope. As this young group of player continues to mature as players on international stages, I do believe we will be competitive again.

 

[Emma]

No disrespect, but with the second half of that sentence you lost all soccer talent identification credibility with me.

You noticed the "maybe" right. I agree he's not good. I was trying to help you out there with your point that we were identifying talent before DA. We did fine until the world changed their system of identifying talent. Then for a decade, we couldn't identify talented soccer players. Twelves years after the inception of DA, we found some. You can say it's a coincidence or you can give some credit. I don't believe in coincidences.