NEW Referee Abuse Policy

I get the need to protect referees from abuse, but I wish they would do a bit more about the terrible and/or corrupt officials as well. Granted that this is a minority certainly, but over the years of observing club soccer matches, there have absolutely been some objectively awful officials, as well as a handful of blatantly biased ones (a certain Legends game at Silverlakes in the State Cup last year comes to mind, where by the end all the coaches and parents were literally laughing at how absurdly and laughably biased the ref was).

Just some easy and accessible mechanism to report bad refs to US Club Soccer, and have the actions scrutinized and bad refs removed/banned, would do a lot (I think) to mitigate the perception of bad quality officiating. Currently it seems to be getting worse (as soccer expands, and more people are recruited to officiate who have little experience and/or who are just bad), and the approach to curbing understandable frustration with terrible and/or corrupt officiating is very one-sided, and unsatisfactory.
 
sigmabody said:
I get the need to protect referees from abuse, but I wish they would do a bit more about the terrible and/or corrupt officials as well. Granted that this is a minority certainly, but over the years of observing club soccer matches, there have absolutely been some objectively awful officials, as well as a handful of blatantly biased ones (a certain Legends game at Silverlakes in the State Cup last year comes to mind, where by the end all the coaches and parents were literally laughing at how absurdly and laughably biased the ref was).

Just some easy and accessible mechanism to report bad refs to US Club Soccer, and have the actions scrutinized and bad refs removed/banned, would do a lot (I think) to mitigate the perception of bad quality officiating. Currently it seems to be getting worse (as soccer expands, and more people are recruited to officiate who have little experience and/or who are just bad), and the approach to curbing understandable frustration with terrible and/or corrupt officiating is very one-sided, and unsatisfactory.
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Grassroots referees are just kids working a part time job, or adults who give up their Saturdays so your kid can play.

Treat it for what it is: some random guy trying to help out. If you yell too much trash, he won’t come back.
 
Zeke said:
Grassroots referees are just kids working a part time job, or adults who give up their Saturdays so your kid can play.

Treat it for what it is: some random guy trying to help out. If you yell too much trash, he won’t come back.
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This is true particularly at the lower levels and for rec. But a. the poster was talking State Cup....there have also been complaints against others like Surf Cup...organizers of what are supposed to be relatively marquee tournaments need to take responsibility for referee quality and be honest if they are looking to save a book, and b. the poster was talking about outright corruption. Don't know about the actual situation to know if it's true or not but have come across it enough to know that corruption is not exactly uncommon....I once stumbled in on the DOC of a club my kid had once played at making what looked like a pay off to a referee....could it have been innocent? "Thanks Charlie for lending me the $10 for lunch"...sure...but it certainly raised my eyebrow given the location. I think people also tend to underestimate the amount of cheating going on, whether PES or age line cheating.
 
Grace T. said:
This is true particularly at the lower levels and for rec. But a. the poster was talking State Cup....there have also been complaints against others like Surf Cup...organizers of what are supposed to be relatively marquee tournaments need to take responsibility for referee quality and be honest if they are looking to save a book, and b. the poster was talking about outright corruption. Don't know about the actual situation to know if it's true or not but have come across it enough to know that corruption is not exactly uncommon....I once stumbled in on the DOC of a club my kid had once played at making what looked like a pay off to a referee....could it have been innocent? "Thanks Charlie for lending me the $10 for lunch"...sure...but it certainly raised my eyebrow given the location. I think people also tend to underestimate the amount of cheating going on, whether PES or age line cheating.
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Indeed. For lower levels and rec leagues, I have a very high tolerance for lack of competence, and generally I am the most forgiving of ref mistakes among the parents of kids on my son's team (having been a ref for around a decade in my youth).

I have had probably an average of 2-3 games per year where I though the ref was incompetent to the point where I would file a complaint, if there was an easy way to do so. These would be things like missing easy calls repeatedly, and/or letting the game get out of control to the point where the kids were in danger of getting injured. The team plays probably 50 games a year, so that's a pretty low percentage.

I have had one game in the last 3 years where I though the ref was clearly biased and paid off to cheat for the other team (the aforementioned State Cup game, at the Legends owned facility, against the Legends team). He called a penalty against our player for a slide tackle, which he admitted to the player on the field was 100% clean after the fact, but he called the penalty for a perceived dangerous play (which, even if that was a correct call, which it was not, would have been indirect). He called another foul later when our player got pushed over from behind, blatantly... on our player. He was 100% corrupt, laughably, and not even trying to be particularly subtle about it... to the point where we all stopped getting angry, and just told the players that sometimes the refs are just dirty, and they were clearly cheated out of that game. Apparently Legends cheating is fairly well-known, though, to be fair (I learned this afterwards).

Also, to be clear, I'm not even asking for penalties against bad refs, I just want a path for parents to identify and report perceived bad refs, to mitigate some of the entirely one-sided handling by the leagues and tournaments. If there's no way to weed out bad refs over time, then parents just get more and more frustrated, which will lead to escalations. More one-sided responses will not help this ongoing and increasing problem.
 
sigmabody said:
Indeed. For lower levels and rec leagues, I have a very high tolerance for lack of competence, and generally I am the most forgiving of ref mistakes among the parents of kids on my son's team (having been a ref for around a decade in my youth).

I have had probably an average of 2-3 games per year where I though the ref was incompetent to the point where I would file a complaint, if there was an easy way to do so. These would be things like missing easy calls repeatedly, and/or letting the game get out of control to the point where the kids were in danger of getting injured. The team plays probably 50 games a year, so that's a pretty low percentage.

I have had one game in the last 3 years where I though the ref was clearly biased and paid off to cheat for the other team (the aforementioned State Cup game, at the Legends owned facility, against the Legends team). He called a penalty against our player for a slide tackle, which he admitted to the player on the field was 100% clean after the fact, but he called the penalty for a perceived dangerous play (which, even if that was a correct call, which it was not, would have been indirect). He called another foul later when our player got pushed over from behind, blatantly... on our player. He was 100% corrupt, laughably, and not even trying to be particularly subtle about it... to the point where we all stopped getting angry, and just told the players that sometimes the refs are just dirty, and they were clearly cheated out of that game. Apparently Legends cheating is fairly well-known, though, to be fair (I learned this afterwards).

Also, to be clear, I'm not even asking for penalties against bad refs, I just want a path for parents to identify and report perceived bad refs, to mitigate some of the entirely one-sided handling by the leagues and tournaments. If there's no way to weed out bad refs over time, then parents just get more and more frustrated, which will lead to escalations. More one-sided responses will not help this ongoing and increasing problem.
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Personally I don’t care if a ref is bad, as long as he is bad to both teams. Missing easy calls sometimes means ref not wanting to stop the game too much for minor infractions. And he is well within his power to not call minor faults.
 
Jamisfoes said:
Personally I don’t care if a ref is bad, as long as he is bad to both teams. Missing easy calls sometimes means ref not wanting to stop the game too much for minor infractions. And he is well within his power to not call minor faults.
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By easy calls, I mean calls which are not minor and not hard to officiate, and should have been called by any reasonably competent official. Of could I understand not stopping the game for minor infractions, giving advantage, managing the game, etc. (I did mention above that I personally reffed games for more than a decade). I also have a high tolerance for somewhat bad but fair.

Really, the only refs in the 2-3 per year category are "unreasonably bad", to the point where the game becomes unmanageable and/or dangerous for the kids.
 
sigmabody said:
Really, the only refs in the 2-3 per year category are "unreasonably bad", to the point where the game becomes unmanageable and/or dangerous for the kids.
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As an example of this, we had a ref for one game in the Vegas Cup recently which seemingly refused to call fouls or give cards. I don't know if it was a tournament rule or something, but one kid in particular on the other team was openly kicking players while on the ground, cleat-first tackling players, shoving players over, etc., and virtually nothing was called (and no cards were shown in the entire game).

We won the game, easily, but that ref was bad, and the game was dangerous for all players (and particularly our players) because of the bad quality of officiating from that specific referee. It's not about whether or not your team was disadvantaged; it's about player safety, and getting bad refs to get better, or not officiate at the club level.
 
sigmabody said:
As an example of this, we had a ref for one game in the Vegas Cup recently which seemingly refused to call fouls or give cards. I don't know if it was a tournament rule or something, but one kid in particular on the other team was openly kicking players while on the ground, cleat-first tackling players, shoving players over, etc., and virtually nothing was called (and no cards were shown in the entire game).

We won the game, easily, but that ref was bad, and the game was dangerous for all players (and particularly our players) because of the bad quality of officiating from that specific referee. It's not about whether or not your team was disadvantaged; it's about player safety, and getting bad refs to get better, or not officiate at the club level.
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Refsneedlove (the instragram ref who posts a lot of scenarios on his channel) recently made the point that ages 10-12 are especially fraught for conflict. The parents haven't been in it long enough still to realize that none of this really matters and there are still quite a few trophy chasers in among them. The kids, particularly the boys, are beginning to get a lot more physical and are experimenting with things like leg slides. Because of the shortage, you either have a ref who can't run on the full size field, or who may be inexperienced, or who is a youth ref since the older games are given to the more experienced/physically fit refs who can actually keep up with the players. Because of the shortage, you either don't have Ars, or are stuck with club linesmen or are running the 2 man. Yet the age is also the age where parents are still very concerned with player safety since the kids haven't become fully teenagers in their eyes.
 
People are getting worked up about nothing. Golf had ref issues addressed a long time ago. I'm pretty sure the same type of thing happens in soccer.


For those not familiar with this scene listen closely to what's said and watch what actually happens.
 
This is not an excuse for poor reffing or for tournaments cutting corners using cheaper refs, but there is just a shortage of refs across the board. Not just soccer, but many other sports. Some high school football games have to be played on Thursdays due to ref shortages.

I think the problem in youth soccer is multifold, and blame can be spread amongst coaches, clubs, parents and refs themselves. There is just a general lack of accountability. However, the main problem is that there are far too many soccer games. Too many leagues, too many tournaments, etc. Games are important, but US soccer relies on far too many for their vision of what development should be.

You know when I saw some of the purest soccer? It was during Covid when the call went out to meet at a field for pickup games. Kids from all over SD county would show up to play freely. No coaches, no joysticking, maybe a dad reffing. It wasn't always pretty, but it was pure and it was fun for the kids who could play unconstrained by the arbitrary tactics and positions enforced by a coach or the ticky tacky calls of a LOTG Nazi ref. (Unfortunately, on a occasion you had some parents who still took it way too seriously). It was truly organic soccer.
 
watfly said:
This is not an excuse for poor reffing or for tournaments cutting corners using cheaper refs, but there is just a shortage of refs across the board. Not just soccer, but many other sports. Some high school football games have to be played on Thursdays due to ref shortages.

I think the problem in youth soccer is multifold, and blame can be spread amongst coaches, clubs, parents and refs themselves. There is just a general lack of accountability. However, the main problem is that there are far too many soccer games. Too many leagues, too many tournaments, etc. Games are important, but US soccer relies on far too many for their vision of what development should be.

You know when I saw some of the purest soccer? It was during Covid when the call went out to meet at a field for pickup games. Kids from all over SD county would show up to play freely. No coaches, no joysticking, maybe a dad reffing. It wasn't always pretty, but it was pure and it was fun for the kids who could play unconstrained by the arbitrary tactics and positions enforced by a coach or the ticky tacky calls of a LOTG Nazi ref. (Unfortunately, on a occasion you had some parents who still took it way too seriously). It was truly organic soccer.
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I buy less the idea that the ref shortage is to blame. Latino leagues don't have any difficulty getting refs, none of them youths and most of them generally physically fit and competent, though they do run a cr only game and most IIUC pay in cash. Adult sunday leagues too, which also pay more, and many of which have a full crew. The reality is the pay needs to be substantially higher if we want to attract fit quality refs to forego other opportunities, particularly given how unpleasant it is. But that means club fees will continue to rise.
 
So glad my kids club soccer career is near the home stretch. Refs today are soft. There’s a lot of games I don’t say anything and I’m totally good with how the ref calls the game, but man, high school is another level of bad especially with a 2 man ref system. Last game I was quiet all game, parents kept chirping at the ref for calls because they were losing while their team gradually became more aggressive and began fouling knowing the ref was letting them play out. Then the ref succumbed to the pressure and started making stupid offside calls that clearly weren’t because the football lines clearly who where players are in relation to each other. Then parents were chirping for contact fouls and he started giving it to them. Finally I had enough and I asked “are you making the calls or are the parents making the calls?”

I must have struck a nerve because the ref stopped the game to look who said it and addressed the crowd. I hadn’t said anything all game until that point and it was the only thing that came out of my mouth which I quoted.

Looking at this graphic, I’d be suspended for 2 games? I think it’s excessive and this chart is overkill. Sometimes refs just suck and having them out there is just slapping lipstick on a pig. There is no accountability and no oversight. So imo if USA soccer wants to implement this policy they need to start policing and continually train their own to make better versions of themselves.
 
Grace T. said:
I buy less the idea that the ref shortage is to blame. Latino leagues don't have any difficulty getting refs, none of them youths and most of them generally physically fit and competent, though they do run a cr only game and most IIUC pay in cash. Adult sunday leagues too, which also pay more, and many of which have a full crew. The reality is the pay needs to be substantially higher if we want to attract fit quality refs to forego other opportunities, particularly given how unpleasant it is. But that means club fees will continue to rise.
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I'm not sure adult leagues, latino leagues, and club soccer leagues are apples to apples when it comes to refs. I don't know that paying more is going to improve the quality of reffing, but lack of pay is certainly a factor in the shortage of refs. (Just FYI, when I was a kid many refs were volunteers.) Maybe with more refs it might improve your odds of getting a more competent ref, but I don't see it moving the needle much. Youth soccer development sucks, youth soccer coaching sucks (for the most part), US Soccer sucks, etc. Why would the refs be any different? Bad refs are just a symptom of a greater problem with our whole American soccer culture (in particular, lack of accountability). However, I believe your odds of getting a quality ref is way higher than getting a quality coach and your usually only stuck with a bad ref for one game. If we had better coaches and different development priorities maybe we'd have less of a problem with referee abuse (yes, I realize how idealistic that sounds).
 
sigmabody said:
I get the need to protect referees from abuse, but I wish they would do a bit more about the terrible and/or corrupt officials as well. Granted that this is a minority certainly, but over the years of observing club soccer matches, there have absolutely been some objectively awful officials, as well as a handful of blatantly biased ones (a certain Legends game at Silverlakes in the State Cup last year comes to mind, where by the end all the coaches and parents were literally laughing at how absurdly and laughably biased the ref was).

Just some easy and accessible mechanism to report bad refs to US Club Soccer, and have the actions scrutinized and bad refs removed/banned, would do a lot (I think) to mitigate the perception of bad quality officiating. Currently it seems to be getting worse (as soccer expands, and more people are recruited to officiate who have little experience and/or who are just bad), and the approach to curbing understandable frustration with terrible and/or corrupt officiating is very one-sided, and unsatisfactory.
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A bit of a problem we parents created, though, right? That's assuming we drove the good ones out, and I'm not sure that's the case, but there's a shortage for a reason.

How would you enforce what you're describing? Don't coaches already have the ability to grade the officials?
 
Grace T. said:
I buy less the idea that the ref shortage is to blame.
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I'm not sure how to properly weight all of the factors that contribute to the problem, but there is definitely a ref shortage compared to only a few years ago. After COVID - many just didn't come back. Ref coordinators are freaking out every weekend to make sure they have coverage for all games, and pulling in favors pretty much every weekend to make sure that at least two (and hopefully three) refs will show up. Huge push locally and regionally to get more new refs trained up. This wasn't the case just a few years ago, when there were many spare refs that couldn't get bookings they wanted because game slots always filled up as soon as they were posted.

Anything that is done to lower the supply of refs (including getting rid of the objectively terrible ones), and even with the best of intentions, will likely make the problem worse rather than better at the moment.
 
Slobodan said:
A bit of a problem we parents created, though, right? That's assuming we drove the good ones out, and I'm not sure that's the case, but there's a shortage for a reason.

How would you enforce what you're describing? Don't coaches already have the ability to grade the officials?
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I don't buy that this is a parent-created issue. I don't know if coaches can grade the officials, but our club has had several incidents with bad refs which I'm aware of in which the club was basically not able to do anything. This includes an instances where they reported a violation of the league rules to Socal League, and the league did nothing.

I don't know about the pay issue. I know the club pays refs for all games ($150/game for a full crew, iirc), even scrimmages. I do not know how that compares to other leagues. I suspect tournaments pay more, and say they have higher quality officials, but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.

I 100% agree with the statement: "Bad refs are just a symptom of a greater problem with our whole American soccer culture (in particular, lack of accountability)." Parents get upset with officiating on the field because there's a perception that crappy refs are not accountable for being bad, and there's no other way to hold them accountable. If US Soccer fixed that problem, and even just gave the impression of accountability for the officials, that would go a long way to reducing sideline complaints.

I'm certain I will be due a few suspensions under the new policy, and I'm probably the most understanding of all the parents on our team's sideline (and our team's parents are less vocal than the parents for many other teams). It's utter BS (imho) to just continue to try to increase penalties on parents while doing nothing at all to fix the quality problem. Raise prices, make a feedback portal, show ratings publicly, allow parents to ref games instead... whatever, just do something, and don't bury your metaphorical head in the sand like some spinless braid-dead pathetic organization.

And again, we're talking about maybe 5% (and probably closer to 2%) of all officials that fall into the "bad enough to report" category; it's not like the parents are demanding professional quality for every game. The bar is "not terrible" and "not dangerous for the kids because of gross incompetence".

The more I think about this new policy, the more pissed off at US Soccer I get. To quote a famous NY cop, "Now, you listen to me, jerk-off, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. Quit being a part of the fucking problem..."
 
RandomSoccerFan said:
Anything that is done to lower the supply of refs (including getting rid of the objectively terrible ones), and even with the best of intentions, will likely make the problem worse rather than better at the moment.
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I disagree. I think every parent on our team would prefer a semi-competent parent officiating a game than a bad third-party referee, and I think most parents would agree with that sentiment.

That wouldn't work for tournaments, but if you had a public feedback system and ratings for refs, people could tell pretty quickly if they had a shitty ref assigned, and choose to make another call instead. At least that would give teams an opt-out, and maybe just increase the overall quality as a side-effect, without excluding anything explicitly. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and all.
 
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