Interesting letter from SoCal League, re referee issues

Soccer needs to get rid of the offsides rule. It causes more problems than it solves. It also creates animosity between spectators and refs.

What would happen if you got rid of offsides? Teams would score more goals. God forbid I dont have to watch players kick a ball for 90 minutes and have the game end in a tie.

From a ref perspective you could get away with 1 ref per game instead of 3. Leagues still might want line refs to watch for the ball going out but this isn't really nessasary. I'd rather refs miss a few going out to keep the pace
Soccer needs to get rid of the offsides rule. It causes more problems than it solves. It also creates animosity between spectators and refs.

What would happen if you got rid of offsides? Teams would score more goals. God forbid I dont have to watch players kick a ball for 90 minutes and have the game end in a tie.

From a ref perspective you could get away with 1 ref per game instead of 3. Leagues still might want line refs to watch for the ball going out but this isn't really nessasary. I'd rather refs miss a few going out to keep the pace of play happening.

Clearly you do not understand soccer. Stick with your regular American sports if you want high scores. This is not it.
 
It sounds ominous - but if the kid went home and rested for 3 days they'd be completely fine and have forgotten about it by the next week. This doesn't excuse the ref from correctly addressing it on the field, and the coach and/or parents appropriately advocating for their player/child. But this is a huge ER bill where in most cases young kids in a similar situation would just go home with a bruise.

Ask any parent with multiple kids. The oldest gets taken to the doctor for just about anything. By the time the second comes along, unless the bone is breaking skin, they're told to stop whining.
Excellent parenting!
 
Refs aren't supposed to lay hands on the kids. Coaches, however, can't come onto the field without the permission of the ref and will be ejected if they do because they worry it will empty the benches. So coaches can't. But the kid will be punished if he fights back. So apparently the default answer is the ref gets to blow his whistle and if the attacker ignores it has to take his beating too bad so sad....attacker will be punished in retrospect (allegedly).
Personally, if my kid was being attacked, I'd go onto the field anyway (as a parent). Moreover, if the ref wanted to send me off for it (as a parent), I'd encourage it. Since SoCal League now imposes a $50 fine on any parent who is sent off, I'd have grounds to sue the league (and ref also, incidentally) for actual damages... and you bet I would, cause defending one's kid from assault would be a trivial win, and when I win I can collect legal fees also. Give me the $50 in actual damages, and the $500,000 in legal fees, please.

To clarify, I know I wouldn't get that full amount, cause the league's insurance would settle for ~$100,000, as that's the going rate for immediate settlement in California. But that seems like an open and shut, just cash the settlement check case, and that's assuming no actual medical bills for my kid. It could easily be a "policy limits" case also, if the league contest it.
 
Cool story. But seeing how any club in SoCal or any other reasonably legitimate league already had you sign a code of conduct when you put your kid.on the team and paid your fee, going on the field as a parent under any circumstances is grounds to kick your player off the team and ban you from any further league participation for a year or more. You've already agreed to this. What happens in Norcal when this happens, with parents physically contacting kids and/or brawling on the field (and it does happen, from time to time) both team coaches are suspended for 4-8 weeks minimum, and if it's a competition like state cup, typically both teams are bounced from it for the season.

The guidance is simple. Stay off the field of play, and let the kids and refs sort it out. Doing anything else is shortsighted, and not going to end the way you're hoping.
 
Straight red. At least he blew the whistle. Sometimes the tournaments direct the refs not to card or card severely especially the Youngers because parents paid a fortune to play/travel/stay. Could that have been a factor?
When they get older, sometimes the tournament directors have promised scouts that there will be high-class recruitable players in the mix.
 
The guidance is simple. Stay off the field of play, and let the kids and refs sort it out. Doing anything else is shortsighted, and not going to end the way you're hoping.
Well, firstly, I'm not going to let my kid get physically pummeled on the field regardless (in that situation). I wouldn't be looking to fight anyone else, but I could still interpose myself between kids. This is, of course, in the hypothetical where the officials and coaches are not taking action already, to be clear (which is pretty unrealistic; almost all coaches, and many refs, would be breaking up fights anyway).

Second, if the league was stupid enough to uphold a ban for a parent protecting their kid from overt assault, then they could absolutely also ban my kid from participating for a while also (and me as well); I'm aware. That's something I could live with, and I'd take my chances in court. Once we're talking actual and prospective damages, and they talk with their legal counsel, my guess is that the league wouldn't want to increase their liability exposure, but I could live with that outcome if that's what they chose to do.
 
No, you wouldn't. You're speculating wildly behind the keyboard on a situation that would never play out the way you describe. Whether you believe it to be accurate yourself is beside the point. If you want to read about how these situations actually play out, google "PAD Incident Report", and you'll eventually find the database where you can read about all of the incidents over many years that make it to the league for review and discipline.
 
To be fair, I agree that this is almost entirely academic speculation. Fights are very rare (in my experience), and in the one instance I recall of a confrontation (over 5+ years of playing), both the coaches and refs broke up the players without any parental involvement (and of course nothing idiotic like carding coaches for entering the field without permission in that scenario). It's almost like the coaches and refs are aware that their intervention is necessary to prevent parents from getting involved, and they are proactive about it. There would have to be a sequence of very unlikely events, and some horrendously bad judgement from the refs, to get to the hypothetical point I'm speculating about.

My initial point (which is mostly tangential) was mainly just to note that, previously, in the vanishingly small probability scenario described, the parent would be suspended without much legal recourse, since they would not have suffered any actual damages from the league action. Thanks to recent changes, though, now such a suspension comes with actual damages also. Thus, if the action was grossly unfair (ie: the parent was protecting their child from being assaulted, when nobody else intervened), the parent would have grounds to sue to league and likely prevail.

But yeah... in reality, never going to happen, for so many reasons, pure hypothetical.
 
To be fair, I agree that this is almost entirely academic speculation. Fights are very rare (in my experience),
Sadly, if your kid sticks with it through the olders - you'll find that they are less rare than we'd likely all want. Once they are playing U15B+, it seems like you could count on 4-5 fistfights per season, about every 3-4 games. A little less in the very highest leagues (where the kids probably feel they have too much to lose), but pretty commonplace elsewhere. It sucks if it happens when the refs are also insufficient, and sometimes may even be a proximate cause for the escalation - but it is *never* fixed by parents running on the field to try and get involved themselves. It just makes the consequences worse for everyone involved.
 
Sadly, if your kid sticks with it through the olders - you'll find that they are less rare than we'd likely all want. Once they are playing U15B+, it seems like you could count on 4-5 fistfights per season, about every 3-4 games. A little less in the very highest leagues (where the kids probably feel they have too much to lose), but pretty commonplace elsewhere. It sucks if it happens when the refs are also insufficient, and sometimes may even be a proximate cause for the escalation - but it is *never* fixed by parents running on the field to try and get involved themselves. It just makes the consequences worse for everyone involved.
Holy cow. Once every 3 or 4 games? That's crazy high. If that's your experience I will take your word for it. As mentioned above I'm around 1,700 games as a ref (plus a bunch more watching my kid) and I'm around ~ 10 fights lifetime.
 
Holy cow. Once every 3 or 4 games? That's crazy high. If that's your experience I will take your word for it. As mentioned above I'm around 1,700 games as a ref (plus a bunch more watching my kid) and I'm around ~ 10 fights lifetime.
Agree: that's a crazy amount. As I said, I've seen one that I can recall in 5+ years of my son playing club (and none in the ~10 years I officiated in AYSO), and that wasn't even a fight: it was just one player getting in the other player's face aggressively after a hard foul, and the ref broke it up (and both players were red carded, iirc).

My son is at U15B now; I guess we'll see if the frequency increases in the next few years, but that frequency would be very disconcerting.
 
Several points from the conglomeration of messages above:

- ER visit costs for most teams around us in SoCal are negligible from the clubs and teams i have been involved with. This is a direct result of almost all clubs offering sporting insurance that is over and above your primary health insurance. So even if you are battered and broken on the field for whatever reason, a$50 or $100 copay is all that you are out of pocket.

- Actual damages of the $50 charge doesnt change the fact or increase the ability for you to sue the league and/or referee. You should read up on General Immunity. Many jurisdictions have laws granting sports officials, including referees, immunity from civil liability for acts or omissions while performing their official duties. Unless you can prove Gross Misconduct or Intent you would have no case against

- Fights / Frequency / Severity / Parent Involvement: In my experience in the US, and i have to admit it isnt as extensive as a lot you on this forum (5 years during the early 2000s as a player and referee and 4 years currently as a parent, coach and admin), all these 4 points have a direct correlation to the level and area of play. Top flight games tend to be more restrained in the general outbursts since as a few have mentioned the players and parents have a lot more to lose. The 2nd and 3rd flight teams tend to be the craziest as frequently the coaches are more akin to the "Hard Knocks" style and the parents have bought in to that aggressive the world is against our kids mentality. To the detriment of the kids quite frequently i have witnessed and experienced parents believing and complaining that their child is too good to play on the "lower" team. This has lead to even a legitimate foul on the child turning in to a fight/yelling contest because parents feel like their child, the "next messi/cr7" is being targeted. This is generally made worse given that the lower level games also tend to get the referees that are either older, lazy and/or just not up to the mark. The other part that is critical is the location of the games/teams. In SoCal the harsher the area the club is located in the stronger their opinions/voices are and the referees tend to treat them worse just making it harder on themselves. Social / Cultural climate also impacts this significantly. I took me years to understand the hypocrisy in US Soccer Refereeing and after 20+ years in this country i am still trying to wrap my head around. You can go to a youth hockey game where the crowd chants "ref you suck" and everyone applauds it but the same parents cant spontaneously yell handball without being carded and ejected in soccer! :)

- Code of Conduct: Players/Parents dont sign a conduct of with the league. At least i havent seen this and nor have we ever signed one for ourselves or on behalf of our kids. Not sure where you are seeing this and in which league. We do however sign a version of a code of conduct with the club. The club in turn signs one with the league and tournaments they sign their teams up for. This distinction is of paramount importance if looking at from a player/parent protection standpoint as well as legal standing as some here have mentioned going to court. There are many reason why this is important but first and foremost because if your player is injured during the game and there is gross misconduct/negligence/malicious intent etc your first point of contact will always be the club/team. They are the ones who start the process and should be working with you hand in hand. If they dont then your first legal steps would be against the club/team.
 
- ER visit costs for most teams around us in SoCal are negligible from the clubs and teams i have been involved with. This is a direct result of almost all clubs offering sporting insurance that is over and above your primary health insurance. So even if you are battered and broken on the field for whatever reason, a$50 or $100 copay is all that you are out of pocket.

Fair point. Many run to their own doctor instead, and use their own insurance rather than determining what the club will cover, only worrying about it afterwards if the insurance provided would be helpful.

- Code of Conduct: Players/Parents dont sign a conduct of with the league. At least i havent seen this and nor have we ever signed one for ourselves or on behalf of our kids. Not sure where you are seeing this and in which league. We do however sign a version of a code of conduct with the club. The club in turn signs one with the league and tournaments they sign their teams up for. This distinction is of paramount importance if looking at from a player/parent protection standpoint as well as legal standing as some here have mentioned going to court. There are many reason why this is important but first and foremost because if your player is injured during the game and there is gross misconduct/negligence/malicious intent etc your first point of contact will always be the club/team. They are the ones who start the process and should be working with you hand in hand. If they dont then your first legal steps would be against the club/team.

I should have been more precise. Parents don't sign a code of conduct with the league. But typically, when you sign the contract with the club, among the several things you have to sign, included in it is a code of conduct statement. That code of conduct aligns with what the league requires the club (and its members) to follow, but may also include specific statements/requirements that the club itself requires. In all cases, it says something related to behavior on the sideline - and entering the field of play during an altercation is going to be seen as grounds for serious consequences, up to and including expulsion from the club and termination of the contract.
 
I have had several referees decline to hand a red card to coaches and parents as well because "it is extra paperwork", they will not physically issue the card just demand the individuals leave the field. This prevents a proper paper trail and the ability to fight the decision even if we have it on record.
Referee rules are not to engage with parents.
If a parent is out of line, Referee speaks to the coach and asks for the spectator to be spoken to. Could be a word from the coach, or asked to leave. If the coach fails to comply with the referees request OR the parent does, the coach gets carded.
It is very rare for a parent not to comply. Hence they wont issue a card to a parent, because that is not how it works, not the instructions and not the process

Here is the exact referee instructions
"IF you have ANY issues with parents/spectators, do NOT address them, go to the coach and address it with the coach. Remind the coach they are responsible for their sideline and if they fail to control their sideline the coach will first be cautioned. Finally, if the problem has not been resolved, the coach will be sent off, and if needed the game terminated."
 
Here is the exact referee instructions
"IF you have ANY issues with parents/spectators, do NOT address them, go to the coach and address it with the coach. Remind the coach they are responsible for their sideline and if they fail to control their sideline the coach will first be cautioned. Finally, if the problem has not been resolved, the coach will be sent off, and if needed the game terminated."
I don't know where those referee instructions are coming from, but this is not at all how games are being actually officiated, fwiw, nor is it what has been communicated to clubs via SoCal League.

I have seen at least two (maybe more, can't recall) spectator send-offs so far this season. In both cases, the referee approached the spectator directly, talked at them, and sent them off the field. In both cases, they did not appear to talk to either coach at all prior to those actions.

I can say that there is a considerable amount of extra paperwork for such, and not just for the official. SoCal League requires team managers to also explicitly document all such instances, with penalties for clubs which fail to do so, even if/when no card is actually shown (any motion pointing a person off the field is considered a Send Off, and equivalent to the red card for the parent/spectator, which carries a minimum three game suspension, a mandatory online class, and an effective $50 personal fine for the spectator). The managers also need to gather information from the referees explicitly after the game for reporting purposes, and there's some follow-up documentation requirements for the clubs as well.
 
I don't know where those referee instructions are coming from, but this is not at all how games are being actually officiated, fwiw, nor is it what has been communicated to clubs via SoCal League.

I have seen at least two (maybe more, can't recall) spectator send-offs so far this season. In both cases, the referee approached the spectator directly, talked at them, and sent them off the field. In both cases, they did not appear to talk to either coach at all prior to those actions.

I can say that there is a considerable amount of extra paperwork for such, and not just for the official. SoCal League requires team managers to also explicitly document all such instances, with penalties for clubs which fail to do so, even if/when no card is actually shown (any motion pointing a person off the field is considered a Send Off, and equivalent to the red card for the parent/spectator, which carries a minimum three game suspension, a mandatory online class, and an effective $50 personal fine for the spectator). The managers also need to gather information from the referees explicitly after the game for reporting purposes, and there's some follow-up documentation requirements for the clubs as well.
Why would a ref want to go 1 on 1 with an "overly exuberant" spectator? If a crazy person is being crazy what do you think the chances are that they'll get even crazier if confronted directly?

Speaking with the coach and having them address sideline issues makes it more difficult for the crazy person to focus on refs exclusively. Even better would be for the coach to speak with their entire sideline explaining the situation and asking the crazy person to leave. This way all the other spectators would be against the crazy person as well.

Unfortunately they'll probably be waiting for refs in the parking lot. But this would likely happen either way because thats what crazy people do.

Two weeks ago I was at a youth basketball game and a parent started going crazy on a ref because the ref was lightly coaching players. This was middle school level, the ref was just trying to help kids out. Apparently the ref does this a lot and crazy parent had enough. Half way through the game the spectator and ref got into a screaming match with the ref saying he'll meet the crazy person outside after the game. After the game there they were outside the facility screaming at each other again and threatening to fight. We got out quick because crazy people have guns and it was getting to that level. All because a ref was trying to help kids out.
 
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