Interesting letter from SoCal League, re referee issues

[Grace T.]

Referee's are actually well paid in SoCal soccer, especially given that most of their income is tax free. SoCal soccer league referees make approximately $60 an hour in cash. What you can do is make sure your club requests tax documents from the ref organization at the end of the season to keep this in check.

AYSO is volunteer but the rest of SoCal club/academy scene is paid.

Also dont forget SoCal has a huge adult league to where these referees have the opportunity to earn a very healthy living. To put it into perspective, working weekends and 1 night a week a CR is capable of earning upwards $1000 a week tax free. This is over 50k a year in cash or put in another way the equivalent of 70k a year but only working 2.5 days a week.

And to quantify this i am not just throwing random numbers out but refereed through college working some evenings and nights a week and was able to make close to 35k a year, 20 years ago, when i was just paid $27 to 40 as a solo CR as opposed to $66 now.

Yes up in the thread we were talking about this. The Biden admin irs cracked down on the supposedly tax free income. The higher letter leagues, which others here have noted get the better refs, rely on refpay which automatically tracks payments and issues tax forms. The higher letter leagues also require games to be recorded by veo, which means there is an official record of any outright corruption. It appears there may be a loophole in SoCal league still going on where refs get paid cash. I gotta say looking back on it the ref horrors I have seen were in calsouth/socal/tournaments including very high level ones. I have yet to see something truly egregious at the mlsn or ea level though of course even there I’ve seen errors. High school has also tended to be better though in my own experience I’d put it between the 2 other groups.

My son was one year on an interlocking gk system on his letter league team. It meant he had to sometimes had to cover the older b teams games. I didn’t realize it til you mention it but yeah there was a distinct shift in the tenor of those games. Parents were also crazier. It’s a truism that the younger & lower level you go the worse the parents get.

 

[sigmabody]

The higher letter leagues also require games to be recorded by veo, which means there is an official record of any outright corruption.

It would actually help immensely if all the games were recorded, but even more so if SoCal League didn't have their "we actively refuse to look at evidence even if it's presented to us" stance with respect to corruptions and/or misconduct, even if there were not many actual complaints and/or reviews.

At present, the officials can know with certainty that they can get away with anything, because the league actively ignores reports and evidence: there could be 100+ cameras recording a corrupt official performing overt and obvious acts, all submitted, and SoCal League would do absolutely nothing. If SoCal League just wasn't actively complicit in referee incompetence and corruption, then at least there would be some element of potential concern and risk for bad referees, and that might motivate some better behavior. Currently SoCal League is arguably the main part of the problem here.

 

[MochaRulz]

Yes up in the thread we were talking about this. The Biden admin irs cracked down on the supposedly tax free income. The higher letter leagues, which others here have noted get the better refs, rely on refpay which automatically tracks payments and issues tax forms. The higher letter leagues also require games to be recorded by veo, which means there is an official record of any outright corruption. It appears there may be a loophole in SoCal league still going on where refs get paid cash. I gotta say looking back on it the ref horrors I have seen were in calsouth/socal/tournaments including very high level ones. I have yet to see something truly egregious at the mlsn or ea level though of course even there I’ve seen errors. High school has also tended to be better though in my own experience I’d put it between the 2 other groups.

My son was one year on an interlocking gk system on his letter league team. It meant he had to sometimes had to cover the older b teams games. I didn’t realize it til you mention it but yeah there was a distinct shift in the tenor of those games. Parents were also crazier. It’s a truism that the younger & lower level you go the worse the parents get.

It is good to hear as the the kids move up the oversight and review helps and the quality is better! Errors are expected and part and parcel of the game. Im sure you and most of the people get that. They happen at the professional level as well and that is with all the tech and training they have to assist them.

In the 1st 3 years of u6/8/10/12 SoCal League, Calsouth and regional tournaments i have first hand seen some truly atrocious officiating, with games getting out of hand. 5 concussions, multiple bruised/cracked ribs, 4 punch outs, 2 almost life changing achilles injuries and much more. These are injuries that occurred due to intentional fouls and attacks on players and not a result of mistimed challenges or lack of coordination given the kids ages. This doesnt even begin to address the constant cursing/belittling of the 6 to 10 years olds by their own coaches on opposition teams. All of which could have been prevented if the ref made calls some calls and kept the game in check.

Dont get me wrong i made my fair share of poor choices by yelling and screaming at the referees initially as well when my player and/or child was targeted but have tried to address the issues through the proper channels now and hopefully affect positive change in the youth landscape!

 

[MochaRulz]

It would actually help immensely if all the games were recorded, but even more so if SoCal League didn't have their "we actively refuse to look at evidence even if it's presented to us" stance with respect to corruptions and/or misconduct, even if there were not many actual complaints and/or reviews.

At present, the officials can know with certainty that they can get away with anything, because the league actively ignores reports and evidence: there could be 100+ cameras recording a corrupt official performing overt and obvious acts, all submitted, and SoCal League would do absolutely nothing. If SoCal League just wasn't actively complicit in referee incompetence and corruption, then at least there would be some element of potential concern and risk for bad referees, and that might motivate some better behavior. Currently SoCal League is arguably the main part of the problem here.

You can force SoCal league to look at the video evidence by involving US Soccer and SafeSport! But i couldnt agree more that SoCal league is arguably the main problem.

 

[TopesWin]

It would actually help immensely if all the games were recorded, but even more so if SoCal League didn't have their "we actively refuse to look at evidence even if it's presented to us" stance with respect to corruptions and/or misconduct, even if there were not many actual complaints and/or reviews.

At present, the officials can know with certainty that they can get away with anything, because the league actively ignores reports and evidence: there could be 100+ cameras recording a corrupt official performing overt and obvious acts, all submitted, and SoCal League would do absolutely nothing. If SoCal League just wasn't actively complicit in referee incompetence and corruption, then at least there would be some element of potential concern and risk for bad referees, and that might motivate some better behavior. Currently SoCal League is arguably the main part of the problem here.

Ok, so post your "overt and obvious video evidence" here - - or stop whining.
Then start your own league, since you are so much smarter than everyone else. Oh, that's right......it flopped!!

 

[TopesWin]

It is good to hear as the the kids move up the oversight and review helps and the quality is better! Errors are expected and part and parcel of the game. Im sure you and most of the people get that. They happen at the professional level as well and that is with all the tech and training they have to assist them.

In the 1st 3 years of u6/8/10/12 SoCal League, Calsouth and regional tournaments i have first hand seen some truly atrocious officiating, with games getting out of hand. 5 concussions, multiple bruised/cracked ribs, 4 punch outs, 2 almost life changing achilles injuries and much more. These are injuries that occurred due to intentional fouls and attacks on players and not a result of mistimed challenges or lack of coordination given the kids ages. This doesnt even begin to address the constant cursing/belittling of the 6 to 10 years olds by their own coaches on opposition teams. All of which could have been prevented if the ref made calls some calls and kept the game in check.

Dont get me wrong i made my fair share of poor choices by yelling and screaming at the referees initially as well when my player and/or child was targeted but have tried to address the issues through the proper channels now and hopefully affect positive change in the youth landscape!

You've seen 4 "punch outs" in U6 games? Come on....

 

[MochaRulz]

You've seen 4 "punch outs" in U6 games? Come on....

U6 through U10 and yes. Here is one from a TFA tournament this summer. The referee was suspended for the remainder of the tournament. The video doesnt give the full picture of the game, however the layer throwing the punches was allowed to continue and play the next day as well. That was his 2nd or third round of punches he threw in that game alone. He also followed that up with a flying kick that luckily missed. The parents called him Tyson and cheered him on after the game. He was a TFA player and the referee admitted to favoring the host club.

TFA tournament.mp4

 

[Grace T.]

U6 through U10 and yes. Here is one from a TFA tournament this summer. The referee was suspended for the remainder of the tournament. The video doesnt give the full picture of the game, however the layer throwing the punches was allowed to continue and play the next day as well. That was his 2nd or third round of punches he threw in that game alone. He also followed that up with a flying kick that luckily missed. The parents called him Tyson and cheered him on after the game. He was a TFA player and the referee admitted to favoring the host club.

TFA tournament.mp4

Straight red. At least he blew the whistle. Sometimes the tournaments direct the refs not to card or card severely especially the Youngers because parents paid a fortune to play/travel/stay. Could that have been a factor?

 

[MochaRulz]

Straight red. At least he blew the whistle. Sometimes the tournaments direct the refs not to card or card severely especially the Youngers because parents paid a fortune to play/travel/stay. Could that have been a factor?

I wish either of the latter was the factor. The player was local and represented the host clubs team. The ref also blew the whistle at the parents not the kid, the kid was the after thought. The tournament ref manager escorted the ref of the premises but the tournament decided to let the player continue to play with the justification that "player would not have thrown punches if the game had been kept under control by the referee". The team lost both games they had left in either case. We received 2 different requests to provide the additional footage to US Soccer and local ref board to further the investigation. We were informed about 3 weeks after the incident the referee was suspended pending further training and disciplinary action.

 

[SageMajor]

This whole thread keeps talking about how the League handles ref complaints. They should be passing the information up to the ref assigning association. The association I ref with takes complaints seriously. I have had 2 complaints against myself that I know about, and another complaint about the center on a game I was on. They call the ARS to get their take on what happened, then call the center to discuss. In both of my complaints that I know of I was called and told that a complaint was filed, but both were baseless; both my AR's agreed with the calls that they were complaining about. (How about parents take a ref course)

We also have mentors monitor games, I have been asked about calls I have made, their angle from the side did not see what I saw. What is seen on the side is not the same view as from the center.

 

[watfly]

Straight red. At least he blew the whistle. Sometimes the tournaments direct the refs not to card or card severely especially the Youngers because parents paid a fortune to play/travel/stay. Could that have been a factor?

I've never seen a younger given a red for punching another kid. Now, I've only seen it a handful of times. My son was punched in a youngers game right in front of the ref and the ref waived it off.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Me either, for whatever that's worth. At that age the kids are made out of rubber and aren't generally able to hurt each other much at all by punching, kicking, or anything else even if they tried, regardless of the screaming parents from the sideline. But they should still certainly be made to understand consequences before they get to an age (and size) where they actually can start to harm other players more seriously.

 

[MochaRulz]

This whole thread keeps talking about how the League handles ref complaints. They should be passing the information up to the ref assigning association. The association I ref with takes complaints seriously. I have had 2 complaints against myself that I know about, and another complaint about the center on a game I was on. They call the ARS to get their take on what happened, then call the center to discuss. In both of my complaints that I know of I was called and told that a complaint was filed, but both were baseless; both my AR's agreed with the calls that they were complaining about. (How about parents take a ref course)

We also have mentors monitor games, I have been asked about calls I have made, their angle from the side did not see what I saw. What is seen on the side is not the same view as from the center.

That is what my original post was about. The right way to file a complaint get ref associations to take note and action. I am glad to hear that your association des act on complaints. I can tell you CalSouth works hand in hand with SoCal Soccer and will do nothing unless SafeSport and US Soccer is involved.

You are also 100% correct that majority of parents view the game from "my poor child" perspective and lose focus on the actual game and call. I frequently spend time on our sideline helping our parents understand some of the calls however, it is hard to justify any call of a CR if he/she/it never leaves the center circle.

Over spring league one of our teams had a 76 year ref who missed a goal on a counter because the play moved faster than he could turn around. He blew the whistle for a hand ball when a player from the other team picked up the ball to bring it back to the center and attempted to award a penalty.

While i agree and understand your perspective i believe the statement "take a ref course" goes both ways. Out of the almost 25 games i have been at for fall league this year only 2 referee were aware of the new IFAB laws for goal keepers.

When referees spend majority of their focus and energy on the games and tune out the sideline complaints, in my experience, the games tend to not have the sidelines complain as much. The fact that the leagues, tournaments, associations spend so much focus on making sure the referees officiate the sideline they completely miss the point of what their actual job is. Please dont get me wrong, i am not advocating allowing parents, substitutes, coaches etc to be allowed to yell, scream, curse whatever they want from the sideline however, individuals should be allowed to express themselves and have an opinion without showing dissent and/or violent conduct. The current setup the referees will card a coach if a parent calls offside/handball if the ref disagrees but will do nothing if the players get into a fisticuff. I have had several referees decline to hand a red card to coaches and parents as well because "it is extra paperwork", they will not physically issue the card just demand the individuals leave the field. This prevents a proper paper trail and the ability to fight the decision even if we have it on record.

 

[MochaRulz]

Me either, for whatever that's worth. At that age the kids are made out of rubber and aren't generally able to hurt each other much at all by punching, kicking, or anything else even if they tried, regardless of the screaming parents from the sideline. But they should still certainly be made to understand consequences before they get to an age (and size) where they actually can start to harm other players more seriously.

While this is true, my journey down the rabbit hole of getting complaints filed properly and actually addressed started when we had a 6 year old injured on the field and the referee refused to call anything. The player ended with the following diagnosis by the ER later that day:

2 bruised ribs, bruised sternum, damaged cartilage and bruising on the knuckles, kidney contusion and a grade 2 concussion.

The child's parent and coach were removed from the field but the referee faced no consequence nor did the opposition players.

 

[Carlsbad7]

While this is true, my journey down the rabbit hole of getting complaints filed properly and actually addressed started when we had a 6 year old injured on the field and the referee refused to call anything. The player ended with the following diagnosis by the ER later that day:

2 bruised ribs, bruised sternum, damaged cartilage and bruising on the knuckles, kidney contusion and a grade 2 concussion.

The child's parent and coach were removed from the field but the referee faced no consequence nor did the opposition players.

Sounds like a slam dunk lawsuit against the league and ref.

 

[MochaRulz]

Sounds like a slam dunk lawsuit against the league and ref.

unfortunately the game wasnt recorded. This was back in 2022/23 season and was more so just the parents word against the tournament.

the ref assigning body and tournament director had the audacity to state "how do we know the player didnt get these injuries at home"

 

[Grace T.]

Me either, for whatever that's worth. At that age the kids are made out of rubber and aren't generally able to hurt each other much at all by punching, kicking, or anything else even if they tried, regardless of the screaming parents from the sideline. But they should still certainly be made to understand consequences before they get to an age (and size) where they actually can start to harm other players more seriously.

My kid was ejected once for fighting as a younger. He was attacked by the other player who started swinging on him and he defended himself. Didn't matter. Ref ejected both of them. I was sympathetic to the call on the field (my kid despite being smaller had laid the other kid out). But the incident was video recorded. League and ref org refused to look at the video to review the suspension. What was irritating is it took the refs a few minutes to get down there and stop it so the "correct" answer would have been, according to the league, for my kid just to take his beating and then the other kid only would have been ejected, which is dumb.

 

[Carlsbad7]

unfortunately the game wasnt recorded. This was back in 2022/23 season and was more so just the parents word against the tournament.

the ref assigning body and tournament director had the audacity to state "how do we know the player didnt get these injuries at home"

Unfortunately soccer leagues and clubs arent known for player safety.

But if what you said was true and with doctor bills/receipts I can almost guarantee that they would have won in court. If it went to jury people are always going to take the kid that was hurt side. I would have also bet that the league would have just settled because it's cheaper than a lawyer and likely losing.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

While this is true, my journey down the rabbit hole of getting complaints filed properly and actually addressed started when we had a 6 year old injured on the field and the referee refused to call anything. The player ended with the following diagnosis by the ER later that day:

2 bruised ribs, bruised sternum, damaged cartilage and bruising on the knuckles, kidney contusion and a grade 2 concussion.

The child's parent and coach were removed from the field but the referee faced no consequence nor did the opposition players.

It sounds ominous - but if the kid went home and rested for 3 days they'd be completely fine and have forgotten about it by the next week. This doesn't excuse the ref from correctly addressing it on the field, and the coach and/or parents appropriately advocating for their player/child. But this is a huge ER bill where in most cases young kids in a similar situation would just go home with a bruise.

Ask any parent with multiple kids. The oldest gets taken to the doctor for just about anything. By the time the second comes along, unless the bone is breaking skin, they're told to stop whining.