The results are all in the soccer rankings app.
How's that Elite 64 League going?
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The results are all in the soccer rankings app.
Code
GOLD
League loyalty or association has nothing to do with calling out how the leagues match up. Actual results of game play and the average strength of teams participating in a league do. Fact is, a lot of people don't like that the league they participate in isn't performing as well as others, so they make straw arguments about why it doesn't matter. Level of play in a league is not determined by what league parents are talking about, or which brand a DOC is marketing to customers, or by which event college coaches attended (most likely the coaches attendance is driven by their schedule/opportunity and not the event itself). Level of play is determined by the abilities of the teams in the League, that's all! Everything else is an excuse.
Why does it matter? Sure, you don't have to be in the top league to be successful, play in college, challenge yourself, and grow in the sport. A lot of great players won't ever play in a Tier 1 league for many circumstances. What is important is that we call it how it is, for the sake of the other parents and players who are trying to navigate this youth soccer mess. Finding a team that is appropriately matched for your player, includes making sure the team is playing in a league that is appropriate for the team. If your player is clearly playing at a higher/lower level than their current team, their development requires a change. Knowing the relative strength of leagues, and comparing a teams performance within that league gives people a good starting point for where to look for options when they need to move.
Players come in a variety of abilities, and it's good to have a variety of leagues to play in. However, parents and players are mislead, frequently, by clubs, DOCs, coaches, even other parents about the level of play in a particular club/team/league. Usually it is to discourage players from looking at other options and evaluating other teams. Sometimes, people are just trying to attract player to their club/team, or just want to have some sort of status symbol about what league their child plays in. For years I was told that all the Letter Leagues were a scam! Parents, DOCs, Coaches all said for years that ECNL and DA were just a marketing scam, no need to waste your money, the local leagues are just the same, and you don't have to travel, you don't want to drive an extra 15 min to practice every day, etc... To be clear, the best coaching I have seen, thus far, was at a small club local level; letter leagues don't necessarily provide better coaches, just better players on the teams. Eventually, the player abilities on the local teams became so mismatched, I decided to look into it for myself. I am certain my players development was hindered by not moving teams sooner; I didn't realize the difference in play until I looked for myself and found out I was being mislead.
So, I started going to watch these different letter league teams play and practice in SoCal. At this time the Letter Leagues had expanded to include ECRL, EA, DPL, NPL. I looked at ranking sites like top drawer soccer and gotsoccer; those ranking sites versus in person team performance was absolutely ridiculous, still is. Youth Soccer Rankings (now Soccer Rankings app), was the only system that closely matches the actual observation of the teams, and is a legitimate resource for judging a teams relative level of play. Talking with parents while watching practices is one of the best ways to get info. about a team; most parents observing practice love talking about their kids team, and will fill you in on all the good and bad currently happening. I observed a lot of teams over a 7 month period, and it was clear, the Letter Leagues were not a waste of time, and are at a different level of play than the local leagues. It was also clear that hands down, on the girls side, ECNL had the highest level of play. GA, DPL, NPL, now E64, and of course ECRL were not at the same level. That doesn't mean these are not high level leagues, they are good options, but reality is they are not the same level.
Another reality is that players don't have access to every league. So you have to make a choice about what is the best option for you. Playing in GA is a great opportunity, so is E64, and NPL. The other factors such as distance, coach, team level of play, roster size, can out weight the league hierarchy in finding the best team for you. But it doesn't mean the level of play in the leagues change because of anecdotal circumstances of your options. Yes, things will change, players will move, clubs will close up, clubs will pop up, clubs will change names and leagues, the top leagues will change at some point. We can use the empirical information of the present, or the possibilities of the future to make decisions on where to play. After being mislead for so many years, I will however, call out Bullshit when people oversell their League on the forums. Other parents that are new to youth soccer, or have been mislead for years, come here to get educated by other parents who have already experienced leagues/clubs/coaches. My player doesn't play ECNL. This season, and last season they have been invited to play on an ECNL team, multiple ECRL, GA, DPL and E64 teams. The ECNL team wasn't the right circumstance due to the other factors beside level of league. I not delusional that GA, ECRL, E64 are the in anyway playing at the same level; they are still good options.
Empirical Facts:
This is based on last Feb., so it will be interesting to see if there has been much change over the past 7-8 months. (I am real interested in an updated analysis, but it would be unfair to ask for one right now with the MLS Next league schedule and standings site down. Once it is up and running, I think it would be a good time to request a updated league comparison based on actual game results, from Playoffs, summer tournaments, and some fall league play.) You can clearly see that on the Boys Side, MLS Next and ECNL are neck and neck with and average ranked GD difference of 0.2. Girls Side, ECNL average ranked GD is 2.1 above GA; GA is 0.8 GD above E64, and 0.9 GD above ECRL. In California, MLS Next is NOT outperforming ECNL; GA is NOT competing with ECNL.
Why does it matter? Sure, you don't have to be in the top league to be successful, play in college, challenge yourself, and grow in the sport. A lot of great players won't ever play in a Tier 1 league for many circumstances. What is important is that we call it how it is, for the sake of the other parents and players who are trying to navigate this youth soccer mess. Finding a team that is appropriately matched for your player, includes making sure the team is playing in a league that is appropriate for the team. If your player is clearly playing at a higher/lower level than their current team, their development requires a change. Knowing the relative strength of leagues, and comparing a teams performance within that league gives people a good starting point for where to look for options when they need to move.
Players come in a variety of abilities, and it's good to have a variety of leagues to play in. However, parents and players are mislead, frequently, by clubs, DOCs, coaches, even other parents about the level of play in a particular club/team/league. Usually it is to discourage players from looking at other options and evaluating other teams. Sometimes, people are just trying to attract player to their club/team, or just want to have some sort of status symbol about what league their child plays in. For years I was told that all the Letter Leagues were a scam! Parents, DOCs, Coaches all said for years that ECNL and DA were just a marketing scam, no need to waste your money, the local leagues are just the same, and you don't have to travel, you don't want to drive an extra 15 min to practice every day, etc... To be clear, the best coaching I have seen, thus far, was at a small club local level; letter leagues don't necessarily provide better coaches, just better players on the teams. Eventually, the player abilities on the local teams became so mismatched, I decided to look into it for myself. I am certain my players development was hindered by not moving teams sooner; I didn't realize the difference in play until I looked for myself and found out I was being mislead.
So, I started going to watch these different letter league teams play and practice in SoCal. At this time the Letter Leagues had expanded to include ECRL, EA, DPL, NPL. I looked at ranking sites like top drawer soccer and gotsoccer; those ranking sites versus in person team performance was absolutely ridiculous, still is. Youth Soccer Rankings (now Soccer Rankings app), was the only system that closely matches the actual observation of the teams, and is a legitimate resource for judging a teams relative level of play. Talking with parents while watching practices is one of the best ways to get info. about a team; most parents observing practice love talking about their kids team, and will fill you in on all the good and bad currently happening. I observed a lot of teams over a 7 month period, and it was clear, the Letter Leagues were not a waste of time, and are at a different level of play than the local leagues. It was also clear that hands down, on the girls side, ECNL had the highest level of play. GA, DPL, NPL, now E64, and of course ECRL were not at the same level. That doesn't mean these are not high level leagues, they are good options, but reality is they are not the same level.
Another reality is that players don't have access to every league. So you have to make a choice about what is the best option for you. Playing in GA is a great opportunity, so is E64, and NPL. The other factors such as distance, coach, team level of play, roster size, can out weight the league hierarchy in finding the best team for you. But it doesn't mean the level of play in the leagues change because of anecdotal circumstances of your options. Yes, things will change, players will move, clubs will close up, clubs will pop up, clubs will change names and leagues, the top leagues will change at some point. We can use the empirical information of the present, or the possibilities of the future to make decisions on where to play. After being mislead for so many years, I will however, call out Bullshit when people oversell their League on the forums. Other parents that are new to youth soccer, or have been mislead for years, come here to get educated by other parents who have already experienced leagues/clubs/coaches. My player doesn't play ECNL. This season, and last season they have been invited to play on an ECNL team, multiple ECRL, GA, DPL and E64 teams. The ECNL team wasn't the right circumstance due to the other factors beside level of league. I not delusional that GA, ECRL, E64 are the in anyway playing at the same level; they are still good options.
Empirical Facts:
This is based on last Feb., so it will be interesting to see if there has been much change over the past 7-8 months. (I am real interested in an updated analysis, but it would be unfair to ask for one right now with the MLS Next league schedule and standings site down. Once it is up and running, I think it would be a good time to request a updated league comparison based on actual game results, from Playoffs, summer tournaments, and some fall league play.) You can clearly see that on the Boys Side, MLS Next and ECNL are neck and neck with and average ranked GD difference of 0.2. Girls Side, ECNL average ranked GD is 2.1 above GA; GA is 0.8 GD above E64, and 0.9 GD above ECRL. In California, MLS Next is NOT outperforming ECNL; GA is NOT competing with ECNL.
Code
GOLD
Well, I'm pretty familiar with the App, and could only find a couple matches were MLS Next beat high ranked ECNL teams in the older boys. Certainly found more examples going the other way.
You're argument comes from a Socal viewpoint.
Many look at quality from less of a league + more of a club perspective. In the end regardless of the league it comes down to how well the clubs participating train and maintain their players, coaches, and leadership.
Colleges don't say "I only look at ECNL, or GA or etc players" they'll take qualified talent from wherever it comes from.
Consistency + turning out a high level product year after year is what interests College coaches. This is because it takes less time to recruit + if you bring on a top talent from certain clubs they know the players be productive day one.
JeterwastheBEST
SILVER ELITE
Ummmm gee, that POLL shows no bias at all.....
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
In one of the next revisions of those SR league comparisons, Mark has shared that he might be able to do additional cuts of the data. The averages by league are shown in that earlier post - but another interesting comparison would be if it showed instead the average of the top 10 strongest teams in each league. It's possible that on the boys side the large gaps from MLS N and ECNL at the top, then down to everything else below, might shrink significantly if only the top teams are being considered.
I found a couple examples showing both (MLS Next teams beating ECNL teams, and ECNL teams beating MLS Next teams), and then defining what's a mid-table MLS Next team, and if it then qualifies as a top ECNL team they are beating, all starts to get more subjective. But the aggregate numbers in CA almost certainly support Code's main point as I understand it. Right now, the average rating of all California boys MLS Next teams and all California boys ECNL teams is only off by 0.2 goals. It stands to reason that if those MLS Next teams were split into the academy teams (typically the highest rated, most impressive ratings in MLS Next), and the non-academy teams (the rest), it's quite possible that ECNL would be even closer, if not surpass, that second non-academy average.
I found a couple examples showing both (MLS Next teams beating ECNL teams, and ECNL teams beating MLS Next teams), and then defining what's a mid-table MLS Next team, and if it then qualifies as a top ECNL team they are beating, all starts to get more subjective. But the aggregate numbers in CA almost certainly support Code's main point as I understand it. Right now, the average rating of all California boys MLS Next teams and all California boys ECNL teams is only off by 0.2 goals. It stands to reason that if those MLS Next teams were split into the academy teams (typically the highest rated, most impressive ratings in MLS Next), and the non-academy teams (the rest), it's quite possible that ECNL would be even closer, if not surpass, that second non-academy average.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
And like many of your arguments - they are off to the side of the main point. What was being discussed in detail is the question that you are sidestepping - which league is the strongest. The answer to that question isn't "There are awesome clubs in weaker leagues that have teams that aren't quite as good but still provide fantastic training and their kids might still be recruited anyway". That answer is a fully correct statement, for what it's worth. It's just not the answer to the question being discussed.
futboldad1
PREMIER
Do you get tired of writing the same thing over and over? I know I shouldn't take the bait but the ultimate kool-aid guy is you trying desperately to tell peeps that the GA is a viable top option in SoCal rather than just letting things be. A mid-tier girls ECNL team beats a top GA a team more often than not. Just look at Surf Cup. Just look at the many Power 5 schools the mid-tier ECNL clubs like LAFC and Breakers are sending kids to. Just be happy GA is doing ok and has found a good niche. Just be happy City SC now get to win league games..... and just please stop with the constant passive aggressive digs at the league and clubs many of our daughters play in and for.
Boys are a different pond, the real MLS clubs are where it's at. The regular clubs in next and ECNL are the second tier.
justabystander
BRONZE
Who is saying the level of play in league changes because of anectodal circumstances? I prefaced with, "There are quality teams and players in every league." It is also clear that I am speaking from real experiences so not anectodal - real scores between interleague play from real experience. I will refer you back to, "there are quality teams and players in every league." I never even said what league we are specifically in. The whole point I am making is that I get a kick of parents trying to make arguments that their kids are better for being in specific leagues when even those leagues have weak teams and players in it as well. I am not delusional either. At the end of the day for boys nationwide, MLS next has more quality teams that are better, then boys ECNL, and then it's a mix after that. However, the very top boys E64 teams from the previous season can compete with top ECNL teams - not anecdotal, experienced and fact. The very top ECNL teams can compete against the top MLS Next teams. And then each league also has teams in it that are head scratchers. However, I do believe E64 will dropoff this year because from at least our year group, many teams in the midwest and east left because the competition was low as a result of USYS mixing talent between NL Pro and E64 and creating two watered down leagues.
At the end of the day, we play in a strong respected club that we enjoy being a part of and my son is already in discussion with a couple of DI coaches, but I even told him to look at DII as well and pick a school where he will enjoy attending. We are not ate up on DI or bust - academics is more important. Heck, I even told him to look at some of the NAIA schools that offer more money than NCAA DI and DII. My older boy went DIII after finishing 3 in the youth soccer rankings, but nobody cares about what they ranked once they move on and play in college. NOBODY. He loves playing in D3 and the academic program, playing soccer is a bonus; that was his priority.
Parents have ruined the fun by trying to brag about the league their kids play in while not even realizing how much talent is really out there that they have no idea exist. Soccer will come to end for everyone and none of this will matter. A Big 10 coach put it this way to my daughter, "You need to pick a school where you will enjoy being at regardless of the soccer because they are only three options for you when you graduate: 1. 22 women on the national roster and youre not it 2. Make a couple thousand dollars a month working full time on a pro women's team (NWSL max salary is 46K a year) 3. Move on with your life/career and play pickup soccer or fun leagues if you even still want to play." Both of my college playing kids took that advice and are having the time of the lives playing DI and DIII soccer at schools they love. Nobody has ever gone back and said, "hey we were in so and so league and ranked this and we were better."
Hello, I realize this post is a year late. Our team is a boys 2011, and I believe our team has a different perspective than most. Our boys are killing it this season. They may be "just" E64, but they have not lost to an ECNL or MLS Next team yet this season (from the tournament season, since they're not in the same leagues). They're something like 20-3-6. We would probably like to play more regularly against the ECNL teams that we've tied or beat, but we realize a lot of SoCal soccer leagues are political, and we're a smaller, newer club. We also have a team of boys who have played together for years and love their coach. Their goal is to win the E64 league this season, be a top seed next year, and win the national championship next year when they're eligible. I don't believe you have to play ECNL and MLS Next to be a great player, look at our boys! Several are being scouted by academies like LA Galaxy because they're being noticed. I think we have an amazing coach, and the league will increase in difficulty as we approach nationals. I hope they can be an example that E64 is building back up, and is a good resource for smaller (but competitive) clubs who don't have the requirements for the other leagues.
The problem is these smaller clubs are locked out of letter league and at 2011 you are right at the age (deep into middle school) that things begin to shift. What will happen going forward is you may very well lose your key players in the coming years to the academies. Players who don't get into the academies will be frustrated with the level of play and go on to ECNL or MLS Next teams where they can get college looks and sometimes scholarships. Because your club is smaller, newer, it means they won't be able to pull very much from elsewhere (particularly players concerned with the general level of play in an E64 league). There are exceptions such as what SoCal Elite and David did with several of those teams....it requires winning at a minimum state championship, a ferocious recruitment strategy (that got SoCal Elite in trouble with other clubs in the league) and/or ruthless politicking (such as what got the Red Bulls into MLS Next)....but that's a club level not an individual team thing. But the way this generally goes down is unless the team moves wholesale (coach and all) to another club with higher playing opportunity, you'll likely lose your key players in the coming years before high school. You'll also fall behind the MLS Next Teams because they are drawing up better and better players along the way, and possibly putting in more practice time along the way.
Amazing coaches have very little to do with how teams perform. They can mold gold into a beautiful piece of jewelry with their skill. But they can't put out a gold piece if all they have to work with is silver
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
If playing lower quality MLS N or ECNL teams, it doesn't really matter. The best 2011 E64 team in CA is 40th, and would lose to the #1 seed by 5 goals. It's quite possible, as noted in this thread, there are parts of the country where E64 is going to be stronger than others - but it is not going to be chosen by any of the top players or families if there is another option locally of better talent.
Code
GOLD
Been awhile since I took at look at how the ol' Elite 64 League was doing. It is now ramping up to begin year three. One of the things I found the most humorous about the whole thing was the premise that it was going to bring the Nations Top 64 Clubs together into one league, but failed to even get 64 Clubs to sign up. The first year numbers are probably in this thread somewhere near the beginning, not inclined to dig it up. Going into this season it looks like they have 40 Girls Clubs and 54 Boys Clubs; quite a bit of club turnover as well. If you are new to the SoCal Club soccer scene save your money, no need to add extra travel expenses to play in this league, SoCal has plenty of local NPL teams that will provide you with the same level of competition and opportunities as E64.
JeterwastheBEST
SILVER ELITE
All these leagues, particularly ECNL, GA, E64, ECRL would have their "Difference" score increase dramatically if they simply regulated the bottom four or six each year. I don't know any child benefitting from being on a 5-19 ECNL club... Better off going 15-9 as an ECRL or E64 team...
Oh come on. You know as well as I do that the reason the ECNL clubs get that demand is the college looks. There is a long ass line of boys wanting to play for the worst MLS Next team (with some teams carrying even reserve players who NEVER get to play except for the occasional guest, and others commuting 2 hours) than with a mid tier EA team. The ECRL and E64 teams simply don't have that exposure while the weakest of MLS Next teams does.
Different story perhaps on the youngers, but if you are a younger defender or goalkeeper, and your team is crazy dominant on the offense, being on that strong team isn't doing wonders for your development either. Some of the weakest goalkeepers I've seen even on the olders (crazy stuff at the high level like letting balls slip through your hands) have been on the strongest teams....they hide out there though because their weaknesses aren't exposed. As Neil Thompson has said with respect to goalkeepers, development requires that you sometimes struggle....if you are on a winning team all the time you aren't going to develop as fast.
JeterwastheBEST
SILVER ELITE
FACT CHECK - WRONG!!!
No college coaches sit and watch the 5-19 or 6-18-1 ECNL teams... The coaches do not get spread "evenly" like peanut butter across the ECNL tournament... Much less make them a league game destination!!!
I never said they get spread evenly. The mls champion teams and academies pull more. The point you are arguing is that: a) for the olders they never go to the bottom half (at least relative to ecrl, ea or e64), and b) for the youngers you should always play on the winning team for the highest level (there is no development from playing on the weaker team).
Being on a ECNL club provides exposure at the showcases...Keep in mind, coaches/colleges recruit players and not teams..I remember a couple years ago when ECRL had a showcase in Phoenix on the same weekend as the ECNL showcase about 45 mins away from each other. I heard first hand that only a couple recruiters were at the ECRL games. One is still better off being on an ECNL team.
There's a few girls who played on some low level SoCal ECNL teams that are on college teams right now. I've just recently seen a couple SoCal Eagles players on college teams. Keep in mind, individual players are recruited and not teams. There are always good players on bad teams.
Something like 90% of ECNL girls end up playing in college somewhere. Also about 40% of GA.
That doesn’t mean they all play P4, but there are a lot of college teams. If your kid can make the roster at any Socal ECNL team, she’ll have a chance to play somewhere if that’s what she wants to do.
Of couse, she might still hang up the cleats and go to art school, but that’s another question.
That doesn’t mean they all play P4, but there are a lot of college teams. If your kid can make the roster at any Socal ECNL team, she’ll have a chance to play somewhere if that’s what she wants to do.
Of couse, she might still hang up the cleats and go to art school, but that’s another question.
Let's run the numbers...
There's 124 girls ecnl clubs. 124 X 20 per roster = 2480 potential players per year.
90% of 2480 = 2232
337 d1 267 d2 431 d3 202 naia 321 juco = 1558 total female college teams to play on.
I couldn't find a number on the total amount of college soccer commitments per year out of high school. But judging by the announcements I see from different schools it's between 1 and 3 new hs players per year. This means there's between 1558 and 3474 avaliable college roster spots per year.
On the low side (every college team gets one HS player) it's obvious that 2332 (90% of ECNL players) is more than the total number of available college roster positions 1558.
On the high side (every college team gets three HS players) 2332 (90% of ECNL players) is less the total number of available college roster positions 3474.
So is the statement of 90% of ECNL girls players correct? I think it may have been correct in the past but it's not correct today. With 28 player roster limits, transfer portal, international player, and other leagues like GA, etc also competing for roster spots it's just not possible.