"HANDBALL"

espola said:
My "hearsay" was watching the game and talking to players afterward, who had spoken to the referee when the call was made. The referee said out loud with transparent gestures that it was handling to the defenders who were complaining about the call. When the attackers asked why it was indirect, he just blew his whistle and waved for them to proceed. A short tap by one player (his only assist of the year) and then a long shot that caught the upper V perfectly. The attacking players thought it was funny, especially since the play resulted in the only goal of the game.

What "point" did JaP make? Do you suppose he was the referee in question? That would be even funnier.
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Ah, the point. The point is that, with nothing more than speculative guesswork, you carry on about a supposed incident to illustrate a referee error as if it was fact when you could have simply asked the referee to enlighten you. I must give you credit though. You do have a knack of carrying ignorance with confident pride.
 
Just a Parent said:
Ah, the point. The point is that, with nothing more than speculative guesswork, you carry on about a supposed incident to illustrate a referee error as if it was fact when you could have simply asked the referee to enlighten you. I must give you credit though. You do have a knack of carrying ignorance with confident pride.
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Are you speculating that he was right, when all the witnesses say he was wrong?
 
espola said:
Do you think he would have told me something different than what he told the players?
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And players always tell their coach, teammates and parents the truth? I have heard more players than I can count tell someone something completely different than what was said on the field. I yellow carded a player this past weekend for telling me a PK call was bullshit. When that player subbed out and the coach asked, the player said he told me good call. The coach approached me after the game and I told him what was actually said. He said, "I kind if figured it was something worse than good call."

Moral: Don't believe everything the players tell you.
 
Surfref said:
And players always tell their coach, teammates and parents the truth? I have heard more players than I can count tell someone something completely different than what was said on the field. I yellow carded a player this past weekend for telling me a PK call was bullshit. When that player subbed out and the coach asked, the player said he told me good call. The coach approached me after the game and I told him what was actually said. He said, "I kind if figured it was something worse than good call."

Moral: Don't believe everything the players tell you.
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In this situation, why would they not just tell what everyone had seen?
 
Surfref said:
And players always tell their coach, teammates and parents the truth? I have heard more players than I can count tell someone something completely different than what was said on the field. I yellow carded a player this past weekend for telling me a PK call was bullshit. When that player subbed out and the coach asked, the player said he told me good call. The coach approached me after the game and I told him what was actually said. He said, "I kind if figured it was something worse than good call."

Moral: Don't believe everything the players tell you.
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Surfref, I see you're trying to reason with the poster known as espola. Good luck with that.
 
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espola said:
This is about the most convoluted thought you have ever posted. Congratulations.

And please continue.
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It is not a thought. The guesswork with which you are famed for turned out to be wrong again. As usual.

In the meantime, if everyone saw what happened, why did they need to be told?
 
espola said:
Yes, but ... I have seen indirect kick called even to the point of calling back a goal scored from the kick.
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I've seen it too. Youth game, goalie walks out of box with ball in hand, whistle. Ref places ball outside the 18. Player shoots and scores over goalie. Another whistle, ref says it was indirect, and awards goal kick to defending team. Mistakes are relatively rate, but they happen.
 

This is an interesting video on handling (out of a whole series of informative videos). Apparently I would suck as a ref because I only went 3 for 6 on the examples. The instructor clearly refers to the defender benefitting as a reason for calling a handball which seems to negate ATR 12.9 "The fact that a player may benefit from the ball contacting the hand does not transform the otherwise accidental event into an infringement." As justification he uses the concept of "taking a risk" that I had never heard or seen published before. So if a defender does a slide tackle he has taken the risk and if the ball hits his hand, whether deliberate or not, it is a handball...too bad, so sad. Also interesting that he places a lot of emphasis on players and the public's perception of a handball call or non-call.
 
watfly said:

This is an interesting video on handling (out of a whole series of informative videos). Apparently I would suck as a ref because I only went 3 for 6 on the examples. The instructor clearly refers to the defender benefitting as a reason for calling a handball which seems to negate ATR 12.9 "The fact that a player may benefit from the ball contacting the hand does not transform the otherwise accidental event into an infringement." As justification he uses the concept of "taking a risk" that I had never heard or seen published before. So if a defender does a slide tackle he has taken the risk and if the ball hits his hand, whether deliberate or not, it is a handball...too bad, so sad. Also interesting that he places a lot of emphasis on players and the public's perception of a handball call or non-call.
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The ATR is no longer used.
 
Surfref said:
The ATR is no longer used.
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I fully realize that the ATR isn't current, although I still see refs refer to it. So a player that benefits from a non-deliberate handball is now considered handling? What published guidance superceded this?

Also what published guidance introduced the concept of "taking a risk" (ie slide tackle) for non-deliberate handballs? I've never seen that interpretation published or mentioned by refs, certainly nary a mention of it in 6 pages of this thread. That seems like a really important concept for players and coaches to be aware of.
 
@watfly, not exactly. In this video, the trainer introduces a concept of "taking a risk," in order to determine the intent of the player. That's all. Because the Referee can only determine the intent of the player through circumstantial evidence, the trainer's advice is that we should give weight to taking an unusual risk (i.e. slide tackle in the box) in determining whether the player's handling of the ball was deliberate. Taking a risk doesn't overturn a determination of "unintentional." We already take into account whether the hands/arms are in an unnatural position (i.e. player making himself bigger) and the movement of hand to ball. The taking a risk concept is simply an extension of these considerations in that a player undertakes a risky move (red flag) that has an "intended" secondary effect of making the player bigger and increasing the chance of the ball hitting the players hand/arm through the use of his arms as part of the risky move. The trainer's advice is we should give great weight to the possibility that handling was intentional.

With regard to "youth" players the considerations are more liberal than high level pros. At the end of the day, handling requires a "deliberate" handling of the ball. The considerations of hand to ball, unnatural position, time to react, etc. are much more liberal when the player is 10 v 14 v 20 because the level of player must be taken into account in determining intent. My standard tightens up as we work from a 14 year old Rec v. 14 year old Flight 3 v. 14 year old USSDA.

Was the handling deliberate? Run through the considerations in .9542 seconds to figure it out.
 
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