FIFA needs to stop "gaslighting" goalkeepers

watfly said:
Not any real relevance, but just a story. The boys played in Sweden's Gothia Cup a few years ago. In their age group it was 7v7 with the keeper allowed to handle the ball with their hands on passbacks. It was counter-intuitive for our kids and took them awhile to adjust. Completely changes the game. They never completely adjusted to the overtly physical play of the Europeans (almost to the level of no blood, no foul). Parents would lose their minds if that kind of play was allowed in SoCal...I almost did.

Anyway, if you ever have the chance to do the Gothia Cup, do it. It makes Surf Cup look like a backyard scrimmage.
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Every time I have watched a youth match between US and a European team, the commentators always talk about how physical the Americans are.
 
watfly said:
Not any real relevance, but just a story. The boys played in Sweden's Gothia Cup a few years ago. In their age group it was 7v7 with the keeper allowed to handle the ball with their hands on passbacks. It was counter-intuitive for our kids and took them awhile to adjust. Completely changes the game. They never completely adjusted to the overtly physical play of the Europeans (almost to the level of no blood, no foul). Parents would lose their minds if that kind of play was allowed in SoCal...I almost did.

Anyway, if you ever have the chance to do the Gothia Cup, do it. It makes Surf Cup look like a backyard scrimmage.
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I went along with my son when he playing up as a guest on a Boys 18 team in Gothia Cup 2007. It was our team that got the two physical play red cards in the games we played. We played 5 games -- a win in an off-schedule friendly against a local club's youth team, no losses to win our group Mon-Wed, then a Thursday 8 AM 0-0 elimination game followed by a 0-3 kick shootout (our guys hit both posts and the crossbar, the other guys put 3 in the net). That gave us Friday and Saturday to play tourist.

At the Tuesday night Leader's Party (parents and coaches) we shared a table with some Norwegians who complained about how strict the Swedish referees were. And, contrary to scurrilous rumors that were circulated after we returned, I was not dancing on the table when I fell to the floor - I was arranging empty beer cans into an artistic installation.

I usually hate traveling, but that trip was glorious from beginning to end.
 
The Outlaw said:
Hugo Lloris makes mistakes just like Manuel Neuer makes mistakes. I saw him make 2 shitty ones just a couple of weeks ago and he's widely considered the best in the world with his feet. Keepers make mistakes. The back pass rule was altered to prevent stalling and giving an unfair advantage to the defense. It's more fun to watch and it needs to remain. Now, if you want to make the change for 12-year olds, great. We're talking about the highest level of play. The opponents ability to high press is one of the best parts of this rule. The 6 should not be some force field zone if we're discussing anyone older than that, Michael.
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Well, the best way not to make the same mistake again, or over and over again, is to eliminate any pre existing condition or potential circumstance that will make a mistake possible in the first place.
 
Michael Varn said:
Well, the best way not to make the same mistake again, or over and over again, is to eliminate any pre existing condition or potential circumstance that will make a mistake possible in the first place.
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Why would you do that? Every field player is constantly on the hook for making a mistake.
 
The Outlaw said:
Why would you do that? Every field player is constantly on the hook for making a mistake.
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Field players don't get nearly as much scrutiny though for their mistakes. Take your strikers for example. Let's say your team plays 4-4-2 and the two playing up top play the entire game up there. Not once do they find the back of the net between the 9 shots on goal they took between the two of them. Yet the GK can have a great game but lets one slip thru after a defender got beat again for the umpteenth time with 2mins left in the game. It's a long walk back to the parking lot and you can feel the eyes of the players/parents on you and your kid. Luckily my G03 is mentally/physically tough. Nobody remembers all those missed shots on goal but they do remember the one goal your kid gave up and ended their weekend.
I'm sure you @The Outlaw can attest to this.
Years ago we played on a team where we were friends with a few defenders and strikers parents. Defenders/GK parents are usually a tight bunch. But the striker parents..two dads in particular were always very vocal when saying their daughters needed to finish in order to win. These two dads also had a higher soccer IQ when talking with them compared to your average parent screaming "send it" or calling "offsideS" at any given chance.
 
pewpew said:
Field players don't get nearly as much scrutiny though for their mistakes. Take your strikers for example. Let's say your team plays 4-4-2 and the two playing up top play the entire game up there. Not once do they find the back of the net between the 9 shots on goal they took between the two of them. Yet the GK can have a great game but lets one slip thru after a defender got beat again for the umpteenth time with 2mins left in the game. It's a long walk back to the parking lot and you can feel the eyes of the players/parents on you and your kid. Luckily my G03 is mentally/physically tough. Nobody remembers all those missed shots on goal but they do remember the one goal your kid gave up and ended their weekend.
I'm sure you @The Outlaw can attest to this.
Years ago we played on a team where we were friends with a few defenders and strikers parents. Defenders/GK parents are usually a tight bunch. But the striker parents..two dads in particular were always very vocal when saying their daughters needed to finish in order to win. These two dads also had a higher soccer IQ when talking with them compared to your average parent screaming "send it" or calling "offsideS" at any given chance.
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That's true... a striker can get 1 of 7 chances and be the hero. And if your daughter wins 1-0, nobody remembers the shutout. Fathers that douche(y) won't be changed no matter what you do. The solution, though, is to hand them a spoon with their own medicine. I've actually walked over to the keeper's parent, grabbed a spare jersey and handed the long sleeves to another parent when I overheard them badmouthing our keeper. As you know, it takes a tough kid, or a psychotic kid, to not only do the job but want the job. And thank God we're out there. I loved the pressure, and I'll bet your kid does, too, especially when she knows nobody else can do the job better than she can. World class keepers make stupid mistakes. I'll bet 98% of your team is grateful to have her. You just need to find a way to publicly embarrass Dad 1 and Dad 2 like I did... but I'm psycho that way.;)
 
The Outlaw said:
That's true... a striker can get 1 of 7 chances and be the hero. And if your daughter wins 1-0, nobody remembers the shutout. Fathers that douche(y) won't be changed no matter what you do. The solution, though, is to hand them a spoon with their own medicine. I've actually walked over to the keeper's parent, grabbed a spare jersey and handed the long sleeves to another parent when I overheard them badmouthing our keeper. As you know, it takes a tough kid, or a psychotic kid, to not only do the job but want the job. And thank God we're out there. I loved the pressure, and I'll bet your kid does, too, especially when she knows nobody else can do the job better than she can. World class keepers make stupid mistakes. I'll bet 98% of your team is grateful to have her. You just need to find a way to publicly embarrass Dad 1 and Dad 2 like I did... but I'm psycho that way.;)
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My kid had bad experiences 2 years in a row when he started club. Very different than extras where the goalkeepers were at that age just expected to be like foozball players in front of goal. The first team has been through 3 keepers in 3 years. The second team went on to win state cup after he left but less than 1/2 the original team is still there (the rest were upgraded). I wanted him to quit both times but he insisted he’s sticking with it and he’s gotten to the point where he’s even impressed some academy gk coaches. Psychotic is right.

The girls at least have the benefit that no one wants to play their position so sometimes the coaches have no choice. The boys though are constantly compared to each other...the upside is it’s a forge of fire that’s constantly causing them to improve every aspect of their game.
 
Grace T. said:
The girls at least have the benefit that no one wants to play their position so sometimes the coaches have no choice.
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That wasn't true for any team DD played for after U10. After U12, her teams usually carried three GK's who battled for playing time. All of them were good.
 
outside! said:
That wasn't true for any team DD played for after U10. After U12, her teams usually carried three GK's who battled for playing time. All of them were good.
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DA? ENCL? Not familiar with that world so thanks for info. Good to know. At the lower levels (even flight 1) though the soccer announcement boards are filled with ads for girl keepers. The boys even in flight 3 have competition. I see less of a disparity in boys v girls in keeper quality at goalkeeper camps in SoCal. In Utah it was very stark and very obvious.
 
outside! said:
That wasn't true for any team DD played for after U10. After U12, her teams usually carried three GK's who battled for playing time. All of them were good.
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Wow... don't know where you're at but most teams I'm familiar with struggle to carry 2 competent keepers on the girl's side.
 
Grace T. said:
DA? ENCL? Not familiar with that world so thanks for info. Good to know. At the lower levels (even flight 1) though the soccer announcement boards are filled with ads for girl keepers. The boys even in flight 3 have competition. I see less of a disparity in boys v girls in keeper quality at goalkeeper camps in SoCal. In Utah it was very stark and very obvious.
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National League and the first year of DA. College seems to be very tough on goalkeepers.
 
toucan said:
It is a problem for coaches who train keepers to be keepers. Coaches who train keepers to be soccer players get the best of both worlds.
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Yes, the head coach cannot spend all of their time with their goalkeepers, but guess what, teams tend to have goalkeeper specific coaches who are listed as assistant coaches.
 
All of the good GKs out there have a loose screw or two. They have to. If it was easy back there everybody would do it.
And you can tell by the way they play. FEARLESS!!
There are plenty of good keepers out there. You can tell just by watching them that they are squared away. But the ones that are squared away and not the least bit afraid to put a striker in their place...or anyone else for that matter...you can tell if you watch them long enough.
I really hate it when you meet some parents for the first time and they tell you their kid plays GK sometimes too. Yeah right. Then why are we here?
 
pewpew said:
All of the good GKs out there have a loose screw or two. They have to. If it was easy back there everybody would do it.
And you can tell by the way they play. FEARLESS!!
There are plenty of good keepers out there. You can tell just by watching them that they are squared away. But the ones that are squared away and not the least bit afraid to put a striker in their place...or anyone else for that matter...you can tell if you watch them long enough.
I really hate it when you meet some parents for the first time and they tell you their kid plays GK sometimes too. Yeah right. Then why are we here?
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Yes, you have identified a stereotype at least for goalkeepers from my era. It pertains directly to their state of mind.

"You have to be crazy to be a goalkeeper!"

This is what I mean by gaslighting. Since the back pass rule has been in effect, this state of mind has only gotten worse.
 
toucan said:
Gee Michael, why stop with keepers who risk looking bad? We should go back to the old rules to protect all defenders who risk looking bad.

The 1863 Cambridge rules allowed all players to use their hands to bat down a ball and even to catch it in the air. If a defender was at risk of humiliation because he could not dispossess a dribbler, well, no problem! He could legally run over a dribbler if that's what it took.

After reading your posts, all I can conclude is that you were a goalkeeper who could not competently handle the ball with your feet. In a self-serving effort to ameliorate your public oafishness, you want to dumb down the rules so that incompetent stumble-bums look useful.

As for me and every other person I know, we will take rules that speed up the game and demand ball-control skills from every player on the field.
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In fairness to the OP, on the boys end, there are a lot of keepers like this. Can't tell you how many times at 8, 9, 10 years old I see big hulking kids who can't run being put in goal because they can't play the field. The expectation at that age from a goalkeeper really should just be to stop balls that are hit directly to them, and those boys are big enough that they can do it and cover a large part of the goal. The problem is when they hit 11-13 they are expected to start diving....they have to in order to be effective as they move into the larger goal,and as strikers begin to learn to not shoot it directly at the keeper which also happens about this age. Some can still hang in there because they are beasts on defending the corner or scare the smaller strikers on 1 v 1 but without losing the weight they can't begin to develop the dive. And since they haven't' played on field they can't use their feet so eventually they are no longer of value to the team. They either give up (sometimes replaced by a superathletic kid or baseball player the coach has ID) or are replaced by the boys who have been training the position.
 
Michael Varn said:
I would like to make one final point:

Every modern goalkeeper on any level, if they had a choice, would elect to pick up the ball especially if they have to play the ball quickly in order to prevent a goal from being scored on them. No goalkeeper wants to deal with balls with their feet, or God forbid dribbling it. This would be their préférence in the present, or in any future era in this beautifull game. We had this option in the past. Perhaps présent and future goalkeepers should have this option as well. Now wether or not they realize it, that is exactly what they want!
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I respectfully disagree, I have two keepers G06, B07 who have been playing since 2010/2011 as keepers and field players. I highly recommend when soccer starts up again you check out some games from G06 ,07 , 08 B07,08,09 the training style and playing style in my opinion is very noticeable at these ages. You will see at the competitive levels the keepers are pretty good with their feet. Gk training are now well rounded which includes foot work and distribution , My keepers prefer a team that builds and pass in tight spots because they are more involved in the game. It’s amazing to go watch some u little move the ball around in the back, they will do it more than let’s say u 16-u17 team. In my humble opinion for parents with young keepers that want to play on the field let them demand it half and half .I say this because this will help them be a better keeper in the future ...oh ya and add Futsal have fun! @soccerkeeper1310
 
Goalie1310 said:
I, My keepers prefer a team that builds and pass in tight spots because they are more involved in the game.
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The problem with this is that, particularly at the youngest ages, most teams do not build from the back. That's true of the highest level teams all the way down to the AYSO teams. (I'm open to the argument that it's less true of the girls than the boys for the simple reason that perhaps a team doesn't have a big legged girl defender that can boot the ball down the field). The reason why is because it takes the defenders quite a while to learn both tactically and technically when to hold onto the ball and dribble v. when to pass it back v. when to pass it forward. So, if a goalkeeper passes it short to a defender, the defender will lose it on their side of the field leading to GSCO. The coaches are judged purely on their wins and losses, so more often than not at that age they will have to resort to booting the ball to get it over the half way line.

I agree at these ages they should split time on the field and time in goal. The problem with that, though, is that it works only if the 2 keepers are equivalent in skill and dedication or if one is just going to be the lead and the other is content to know their place as a sub.
 
Grace T. said:
The problem with this is that, particularly at the youngest ages, most teams do not build from the back. That's true of the highest level teams all the way down to the AYSO teams. (I'm open to the argument that it's less true of the girls than the boys for the simple reason that perhaps a team doesn't have a big legged girl defender that can boot the ball down the field). The reason why is because it takes the defenders quite a while to learn both tactically and technically when to hold onto the ball and dribble v. when to pass it back v. when to pass it forward. So, if a goalkeeper passes it short to a defender, the defender will lose it on their side of the field leading to GSCO. The coaches are judged purely on their wins and losses, so more often than not at that age they will have to resort to booting the ball to get it over the half way line.

I agree at these ages they should split time on the field and time in goal. The problem with that, though, is that it works only if the 2 keepers are equivalent in skill and dedication or if one is just going to be the lead and the other is content to know their place as a sub.
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I do agree that not every team plays out of the back but in my opinion it has gotten better with the younger teams I would say G06,07,08,09....and B07,08,09,10....from what I’ve seen these kids are learning and training out of the back , punting and just booting by the defenders is frowned upon again the age group really matters it could be GDA 05 and I saw plenty of long ball GDA 06 totally different style I’ve also seen the same in ECNL , DPL , flight 1 . I know we saw a different type of training in their soccer career since they started in the beginning very few teams passed back to the gk especially on the girl side. What was important for us was not the win but the style of play or in other words what was going to help them later. Now parents you need to ask yourself are you just wanting medals or the Title (Ecnl,GA,DA,ECRL,DPL,NPL) or whatever haha too many leagues that’s a whole other topic. Find yourself a coach that cares about how you play over just winning for GK this is very important if you want to play at the top levels whatever that is for you. As a family you decide what works for you a team with two or multiple gk or just you. This is for young u little to about u13-u14 my daughter played on the field and in goal about 50/50 most of her years but again everyone is different my son only played on the field for a few years and then decided he didn’t want to be a soccer player he only wanted to be a Goalkeeper haha his words. Most importantly have fun ! @soccerkeeper1310
 
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