Fair. I'd venture to say though that athleticism, after body type, is far more important in gridiron football than soccer. Conversely, that doesn't mean that soccer players are unfit...you can't play 90+ minutes on the field if you are unfit. Just that (again varied by position and by level), soccer is a much more technically demanding sport that just takes more years to learn (similarly, unless you skate well, you ain't being a hockey player) than football, while body type is much more important in gridiron football than soccer. Certain caveats (such as QB) etc etc.
ECNL. The C stands for Cartel
- Thread starter NorCalUSN
- Start date
Absolutely skill difficulty is a question of how many hours you have to put into it. Much like money for value, time is really the only razor you can you across disciplines to come up with how hard something is, whether a video game, musical instrument, academic subject or sport. I've already rebutted the uninformed part: there's no way my nephew walks on as a DE with no prior experience as a freshmen in a top 20 socal school v. an MLS Next program, and I've also gotten to compare how much and what training they do (the practical reality is because of the wear and tear on the body, football players can't get as much scrimmage or in game practice as soccer players either...7v7 football will develop some skills a. that's incomplete, and b. it's only certain positions). As to patronizing, it's a factual reality...no more patronizing than saying McDonald's is cheaper than Morton's or that checkers is less skilled than chess.....that say more about you actually than it does me....I'm not passing any moral judgement here.
Maybe…Dennis Rodman in his prime…could you imagine him on corners, or him closing on you in a 1v1 situation, K-Save…How much could he cover…6’9 covers a lot of the frame, is intimidating, etc…also, a lot of the foot work in BBall and VBall are similar to GK’s.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
Completely disagree, but understandable why you feel that way. Time is not the only razor to judge skill, and is a lazy way to judge how much effort is put in to a task. Much like lawyers (or mechanics) billing by the hour, whether the hour is incredibly useful or completely pointless - they are all incorrectly assumed to be identical. It is coarsely measuring the effort put in - and not the output that one is actually being judged on. Is the problem solved. Is the player any good. It doesn't matter that the benchwarmer has been doing this for 10 years and has put in thousands of hours, if the standout player started 2 years ago and puts in a third of the time. If they are making a difference on the team and the benchwarmer isn't - the standout is the more skilled player. This definition of skill can be applied to whether an individual is more skilled than another, or whether a role/position can be assessed by a knowledgeable party as needing certain types of skills. Equating skill to hours is only done when someone has no idea about what the skill actually is.
You haven't rebutted the lack of football understanding in any way. You have listed an unnamed relative playing for an unnamed school that may or may not be any good at anything. Your lack of understanding of football comes through in your posts, where it once again devolves into a rant about steroids because your kid is tiny. The lack of understanding calls into question how authoritatively you speak on soccer, and it sure seems appropriate to fact-check that much closer than has been done in the past here.
Wow I really touched a nerve huh? Lashing out a bit? Not sure what the issue with your kid is and I’m sorry if it hurt your feelings. No moral judgment is intended. It doesn’t make football a lesser sport…just a less technical one. In any case as I said I’ve gotten an intimate peak into that world and it’s not some random family member but my nephew who is in fact playing de for a top 20 SoCal high school program, varsity as a sophomore. I can assure you he got the position through no prior training on his part and almost exclusively due to his height and physique.
you are free to disagree but I’m not pulling out the time thing out of my ass. 1. It’s a razor. You are quite correct that quality matters but that’s not the function of a razor and 2. Over time that quality evens out given a long enough time horizon. Based on the work of Ericsson and Gladwell and covered in the soccernomics stuff too. It’s where the entire 10,000 hours thing came from.
A great deal can be argued on this topic, but here's a kid who played ZERO football in high school, yet got a football scholarship to play at UCLA. So Grace T. has a point. There are many positions in football that require the right body type (i.e., huge to massive) far more than developed skills.
Column: Taka Mahe didn't play football in high school, but he'll try at UCLA
Taka Mahe didn't play football in high school but is preparing to try it at UCLA as a preferred walk-on player.
www.latimes.com
whatithink
GOLD
The rest of the world has passed the UNWNT because the youth soccer > college > NT model that the US had, along with the huge number of players versus other countries is not a good development path. The top countries (Europe primarily) follow the youth> academy > pro > NT path. That trumps and will trump the US model. The USWNT has to mirror that. They will still be competitive but they are losing ground now and will continue to unless they fix that.
whatithink
GOLD
There's a reason the vast majority of goalkeepers are not inordinately tall. Its not like the soccer "superpowers" don't have tall people in their countries or the mega clubs can't recruit tall people for GK. Soccer has only been organized for like 140 years, you'd think someone might have tweaked that having super tall keepers was an advantage ... or maybe not so much so!
I played a little bit of American football when I was younger. The hardest thing I remember was memorizing all the plays and where your position needs to be for any one of them. There's some technique and repetition -- but not nearly at the same level soccer requires at the higher levels. There are other challenges that American football has. Heck we've seen several pro rugby players try and make the move. I don't think that's played out well.
rainbow_unicorn
PREMIER
Fine, switched back to ECNL
Maybe instead of just assuming one league is "better" than another you should try to understand why a player or parent might choose one league or the other.
- Both ECNL and GA Southwest leagues have 2-3 AZ teams. This means travel for both leagues is nearly identical.
- Both ECNL and GA have Good and Bad teams. In ECNL there's 4-5 top teams in Socal/AZ in GA theres 2 top teams in Socal/AZ.
- Top ECNL and GA Socal teams play each other in big events like Surf Cup yearly.
- Unofficially top ECNL and GA clubs often host club to club friendlies. (You just don't hear about it that much because people don't talk about it)
- Some ECNL and GA clubs have crappy fields + coaches.
- Some ECNL and GA clubs have really good fields and coaches.
Don't you think that if your kid is good enough to play D1 soccer recruiters will be able to tell regardless of the league they're playing in?
Why would the US mirror that? What women’s league is better than the NWSL? Women’s Premier League? Women’s Bundesliga? Just because the US did not win this year, does not mean they have been surpassed. We don’t have a talent problem. We have a leadership and arrogance problem…lifers on the WNT…have you watched womens college soccer this year? There are some beasts out there, and have been beasts out there for years…there are also current young players on the roster or periphery that need to play…holding onto early-mid 30’s players who have passed their prime is not a model for success. A lot involved, marketing, licensing deals with players by sponsors all kinds of things keeping the model in the US the way it is. Pro Women’s Soccer, not a lot of money…Get an education it will serve the vast majority so much better in the long run. What is the plan after soccer…just another 50+ years of life to account for.
There are many GK’s playing now that are 6’4, 6’5, 6’6. It’s not all about height, it’s the total package…I’m not suggesting putting 6’9 dufuss out there, I’m talking about a world class athlete that happens to be tall. My argument is that soccer in the US does acquire the best athletes and that they gravitate to other sports. Basketball players in my opinion are probably the best all around athletes out there.
Tyreek Hill…Imagine him as a winger…the speed. Our best athletes in the US do not play soccer. They play football, basketball, and even baseball. In other countries, they play soccer. It’s a soccer first culture. Do we have good soccer players, yes, do we have some great ones, a few. On the Men’s we lose to countries with populations less than the size of LA County…we have 330 Million people and lose to countries with 10 Million or less. We can talk coaching, academies, pay to play, etc., etc., but at the end of the day our BEST athletes do not play the sport. If you don’t have the best athletes/players participating then you better have the best coaching, infrastructure, and methods. Which we do not…we have Triple G managing, and he is not considered in any circles a world class manager.
The Tifo study was done in response to noticing that EPL and Champions goalkeepers are getting bigger. The study argued that managers were committing a fallacy by assuming bigger is better, because it involves a trade off of being able to get to lower cut shots. The speculation was that managers were doing this because of crosses, but the rebuttal was that corners have gotten a lot less lethal and the grounded cross is now preferred to the aerial one (perhaps in response to this trend or perhaps in response to CBs also getting bigger). It is perfectly plausible that a Dennis Rodman would be a beast at goalkeeper, just like it doesn't follow that because Rimando was less than the ideal height he wasn't effective.
I think there is some truth to the notion that the US would be more effective if our best athletes played soccer. In particular, the African American community is woefully underrepresented (which is both a function of culture and of pay or play, given the $ investment it required to get good v. football or even basketball (given the pickup opportunities)). BUT, give our huge population, it doesn't explain why the US underperforms some countries like Uruguay, Moroccos (despite the rankings), Portugal and the Netherlands. The player pool even after shaving off football (which isn't a 1 to 1 correlation...you are talking the QBs and receivers here) and basketball (again not 1 to 1 as you'd have to throw out centers and other larger players) is huge v. those smaller countries. Bottom line is our system is designed to produce college players, not pro athletes capable of carrying national teams. Other countries simply don't have the college athletics route...until you nuke that, you aren't going to fully fix the problem, only improve it.
Totally agree with you with regard to the value of an education in the long run. Too many parents put too much focus on the soccer fantasy to the detriment of their child's future financial security.
Disagree all you want, the USWNT will likely have a chance to win another World Cup in the next 2-3 cycles…I would not be surprised if they are very competitive in 2027 and reach the Quarters or Semi’s. 2023 was bad coaching, a bad roster, and plain arrogance.
They have a new coach who is not a muppet, and if they bring in new blood and get rid of the lifers, they will be very competitive.
Im not suggesting College Soccer is the same in any sense to a professional academy in the US or Europe, never said that, very little player development in college soccer IMHO. I said, we don’t have a talent and ability problem. Have some really great players in the College Ranks, young players signing pro contracts, more US Players playing overseas. It will make the US game better.
This last Women’s World Cup the English Leagues had 108 Women’s World Cup Participants, NWSL 61 (plus 22 other youth club and college players participating as well), and 69 players coming from Spanish Leagues.
35% of the rosters came from Leagues in 3 Countries. NWSL being one of them. It’s one of the top Women's League in the world, currently.
It’s better for everyone in the Women’s game when the game is elevated and the leagues internationally are better. Gives the US Women more options and will make them better.
whatithink
GOLD
Yes, an education is more important for the vast majority of college players, agree on that. If you think 4 years playing college is better than 4 years in a pro environment for developing talent for a NT, then you are sorely mistaken.
The development environments are basically like this
US, youth and college soccer with mediocre coaches in the main playing in generally mediocre games with talent widely dispersed generally. The best players are not being tested day in and day out in practice or in games develop to the next level
Pros, players from 16 up playing in a competitive environment against similarly skilled players in practice and games, coached by pros who are judged on results, same as the players.
A 21/22 year old after 4/5 years of a pro environment versus a similarly talented player starting out after 4/5 years of youth/college soccer will be better in practically every instance.
Ultimately the NT players are minuscule % of the talent pool, those are the true elite and the ones going into the pro environments in Europe (example). The same path doesn't yet exist here generally.
whatithink
GOLD
Frankly, its nothing short of complete arrogance and stupidity to say "Our best athletes in the US do not play soccer", as an excuse. Its what's fundamentally wrong with soccer in the US, i.e. athlete first and soccer second. I've heard multiple A level coaches say basically the same thing, i.e. I can teach them soccer ... when they pick the athletes.
Sure, Tyreek Hill can run really fast ... Can he do it with a ball at their feet, can he pass when doing it, can he cross, can he finish, can he view the field, can he zig zag and take players on .... you know, can he actually play soccer and not just run very fast? We'll never know, but just being able to run really fast does not mean that someone will be a NT player never mind a world class player.
Croatia has a population of < 4M. They constantly and consistently develop players and teams that can take on and compete against the best in the world. Its not a numbers game, its a coaching game. Brazil has a population of 210+M and soccer is religion ... they don't win every world cup because its not just a numbers game.
For reference, avg height of a GK in the EPL is just under 6'3". That's the richest league in the world with every player pretty much a NT player for some country or other.
You think our best athletes play soccer in the US? It’s not arrogance, it’s the truth.
If I asked you to pick the Top 10 Male Athletes in the US I doubt a Soccer Player would be uttered. That is my point.
Soccer First Countries, Top 10 is going to be mostly soccer players.
And…I’m not saying Super Tall for GK’s in the way to go. I am saying a freak athlete who is tall could make a good keeper. A Tyreek Hill, a Deion Sanders, these guys have such great body control and mechanics, I’m pretty sure they could have picked up soccer and been very good if they were immersed with it at a young age.
If there was real money in Soccer in the US, you would see our great athletes gravitate there.
whatithink
GOLD
Are you saying the best athletes play soccer in other countries? What I am saying is that you are falling into the trap of thinking that the best athletes would be the best soccer players - it doesn't follow. For sure, you have to be athletic, i.e. fit, to play soccer, but the pro development academies are not looking for athletes and then saying they can make them soccer players ... they are looking for soccer players, knowing they can make them athletic (enough).
When the US changes their mindset to that, then they will be on the right path - zero chance obv. with the current youth/college coaching setups though.
Dolphins Tyreek Hill says he could have been a famous soccer star
Miami Dolphins star wide receiver Tyreek Hill believes he could have been a star soccer player if he didn't focus solely on football starting in high school.
www.dailymail.co.uk