Discovery League- "We've created a monster!!!"

[timbuck]

Just had this debate the other day. I don't think its quite that simple. Example If you took the top handful of what i guess would be Discovery teams and put them against or compared to the bottom handful of Flight 2 teams (that's assuming we just throw all of Flight 3 back into Rec) I think there's about a 20 Goal differential and more than 1 level in between those 2 groups which is what would be separating them in your plan.

With a flight 1,2,3 model you wouldn't have discovery level teams playing bottom Flight 2 teams.
Right now, SoCal League lists 104 teams in the 2004 age group.
Set it up like this:
28 Teams in Flight 1 (Set up 2 divisions - North and South with 14 teams each)
50 Teams in Flight 2 (Set up 4 divisions by geography - LA, OC, IE, San Diego)
26 Teams in Flight 3 (Set up 2 divisions - North and South)
The math doesn't quite work perfectly for an equal number of games - But you get my point. And that point is that most teams are really Flight 2.

 

[Brav520]

shouldn't in the older age groups the coaches/teams should know by now if they are a F1 or F2 team?



I see the issue more at the Youngers, 2012 and up but even then if you are playing in summer tournaments you should get a pretty good idea if you can compete with F1 teams or not .

 

[timbuck]

shouldn't in the older age groups the coaches/teams should know by now if they are a F1 or F2 team?



I see the issue more at the Youngers, 2012 and up but even then if you are playing in summer tournaments you should get a pretty good idea if you can compete with F1 teams or not .

Some times coaches know. But sometimes, their DOC place them higher because it's a bigger draw for players/parents.

 

[Primetime]

With a flight 1,2,3 model you wouldn't have discovery level teams playing bottom Flight 2 teams.
Right now, SoCal League lists 104 teams in the 2004 age group.
Set it up like this:
28 Teams in Flight 1 (Set up 2 divisions - North and South with 14 teams each)
50 Teams in Flight 2 (Set up 4 divisions by geography - LA, OC, IE, San Diego)
26 Teams in Flight 3 (Set up 2 divisions - North and South)
The math doesn't quite work perfectly for an equal number of games - But you get my point. And that point is that most teams are really Flight 2.

I see your point I just think there's more disparity amongst even those groups and numbers to create a competitive environment. Good example was few years ago I had a Flight 2 team go undefeated in league 12-0, rather easily. So Naturally we moved up to Flight 1 (same squad) and we didn't win a game 0-11-1. That's a pretty big gap in levels in my opinion. Agree the top of flight 2 should still be the bottom of flight 1 and so on but there's a flights difference there. Everyone wants to look at the idea of entitlement or status as the barometer, its not that complicated. Even with the 19 Flights and play levels we have now look at the scores and you'll see a very wide range in records and goal differentials at each one which is what should really determine how many levels there are for each age.

The only argument that holds water is some kids should stay in Rec but even then its not a status thing like oh my kid plays club. Its an organizational thing. Why put my mediocre kid in rec where I don't know the practice schedule,

 

[Primetime]

With a flight 1,2,3 model you wouldn't have discovery level teams playing bottom Flight 2 teams.
Right now, SoCal League lists 104 teams in the 2004 age group.
Set it up like this:
28 Teams in Flight 1 (Set up 2 divisions - North and South with 14 teams each)
50 Teams in Flight 2 (Set up 4 divisions by geography - LA, OC, IE, San Diego)
26 Teams in Flight 3 (Set up 2 divisions - North and South)
The math doesn't quite work perfectly for an equal number of games - But you get my point. And that point is that most teams are really Flight 2.

I see your point I just think there's more disparity amongst even those groups and numbers to create a competitive environment. Good example was few years ago I had a Flight 2 team go undefeated in league 12-0, rather easily. So Naturally we moved up to Flight 1 (same squad) and we didn't win a game 0-11-1. That's a pretty big gap in levels in my opinion. Agree the top of flight 2 should still be the bottom of flight 1 and so on but there's a flights difference there. Everyone wants to look at the idea of entitlement or status as the barometer, its not that complicated. Even with the 19 Flights and play levels we have now look at the scores and you'll see a very wide range in records and goal differentials at each one which is what should really determine how many levels there are for each age.

The only argument that holds water is more kids should stay in Rec but even then its not a status thing like oh my kid plays club. Its an organizational thing. Why put my mediocre kid in rec where I don't know the practice schedule (were all busy with multiple kids), don't know the coach (in many cases the Rec coach knows zero about soccer), and the environment is not conducive to learning at faster rate. For a few more bucks I get to hand pick the coach, practice time and location, i get to see the team before hand, its a more competitive environment and they play more games including tournaments vs 1 game on Saturdays. Doesn't seem like that hard of a choice if you have the time and means. I'd rather my kid play flight 8 than Rec just because of those few reasons. At least outside of the initial starter year or two.

 

[timbuck]

I see your point I just think there's more disparity amongst even those groups and numbers to create a competitive environment. Good example was few years ago I had a Flight 2 team go undefeated in league 12-0, rather easily. So Naturally we moved up to Flight 1 (same squad) and we didn't win a game 0-11-1. That's a pretty big gap in levels in my opinion. Agree the top of flight 2 should still be the bottom of flight 1 and so on but there's a flights difference there. Everyone wants to look at the idea of entitlement or status as the barometer, its not that complicated. Even with the 19 Flights and play levels we have now look at the scores and you'll see a very wide range in records and goal differentials at each one which is what should really determine how many levels there are for each age.

The only argument that holds water is more kids should stay in Rec but even then its not a status thing like oh my kid plays club. Its an organizational thing. Why put my mediocre kid in rec where I don't know the practice schedule (were all busy with multiple kids), don't know the coach (in many cases the Rec coach knows zero about soccer), and the environment is not conducive to learning at faster rate. For a few more bucks I get to hand pick the coach, practice time and location, i get to see the team before hand, its a more competitive environment and they play more games including tournaments vs 1 game on Saturdays. Doesn't seem like that hard of a choice if you have the time and means. I'd rather my kid play flight 8 than Rec just because of those few reasons. At least outside of the initial starter year or two.

What happened to that squad that moved from F2 to F1? I'd be willing to bet if they stuck in F1 again the following year, they'd see an improvement (maybe not win the league, but be more competitive than 0-11-1). Speed of play takes some time to adjust to and the higher the flight, usually the faster the speed of play. But in many cases, the moment a team has a losing record, players jump ship to the shiny team that was top 3 in the league- vs sticking it out with teammates and trying to improve as a team.

The Fall season is only 10-12 games. Teams should be looking for tournaments, spring and summer play (league or scrimmages) to get used to the next level. I know a lot of coaches who will only set up scrimmages against teams they are pretty sure they can beat, where they really should be either testing things against tougher teams or experimenting with tactical adjustments against equal or weaker teams. But the moment they get scored on by a weaker team, they go into "MUST WIN NOW" mode and the team doesn't learn a new way to try and play.

 

[lafalafa]

What happened to that squad that moved from F2 to F1? I'd be willing to be if they stuck in F1 again the following year, they'd see an improvement (maybe not win the league, but be more competitive than 0-11-1). Speed of play takes some time to adjust to and the higher the flight, usually the faster the speed of play. But in many cases, the moment a team has a losing record, players jump ship to the shiny team that was top 3 in the league- vs sticking it out with teammates and trying to improve as a team.

The Fall season is only 10-12 games. Teams should be looking for tournaments, spring and summer play (league or scrimmages) to get used to the next level. I know a lot of coaches who will only set up scrimmages against teams they are pretty sure they can beat, where they really should be either testing things against tougher teams or experimenting with tactical adjustments against equal or weaker teams. But the moment they get scored on by a weaker team, they go into "MUST WIN NOW" mode and the team doesn't learn a new way to try and play.

Flight 1 just doesn't inspire or sound like anything from a marketing standpoint

Discovery, National, Premier,. Blah that's instagram-able and parents don't mind paying a premium for status.

All clubs pretty much what a piece of the premium bracket pie so they put in teams ready or not.

 

[Brav520]

Some times coaches know. But sometimes, their DOC place them higher because it's a bigger draw for players/parents.

I’ve been out of the club soccer scene for 20 years , so I guess I’m a little uneducated on the current scene .

So you promise F1 to players and parents , then they get demolished every game . Isn’t that going piss off parents even more?

I’m not arguing with you btw , just trying to understand . Are there really a good portion of parents out there that are ok with losing , sometimes losing badly as long as they can say their kid plays in the top division?

 

[timbuck]

I’ve been out of the club soccer scene for 20 years , so I guess I’m a little uneducated on the current scene .

So you promise F1 to players and parents , then they get demolished every game . Isn’t that going piss off parents even more?

I’m not arguing with you btw , just trying to understand . Are there really a good portion of parents out there that are ok with losing , sometimes losing badly as long as they can say their kid plays in the top division?

You'd be shocked. Especially when a player is leaving a decent/ok team in Flight 2. First words out of their mouth "Well, they are a flight 1 team." (Before realizing that this team has 3 players left from the prior year and is bringing in 9 players from 3 other flight 2 teams.)

 

[RedCard]

I’ve been out of the club soccer scene for 20 years , so I guess I’m a little uneducated on the current scene .

So you promise F1 to players and parents , then they get demolished every game . Isn’t that going piss off parents even more?

I’m not arguing with you btw , just trying to understand . Are there really a good portion of parents out there that are ok with losing , sometimes losing badly as long as they can say their kid plays in the top division?

Yes...parents do get pissed off when their kid's team lose. Saw it first hand at the Man City Cup back in May. A girls team lost their 3 games 4-0, 4-0, and 2-0. At the end of the 2nd game, one of the dads of that team just yelled out "Why the Hell are we in this tournament?? This is embarrassing!!" while storming away.

Fun fact...That team is in the "new" 05 Discovery/NPL bracket along with both teams that beat them 4-0. Should be an interesting season...

 

[Curious]

Does anyone know if when forming the different levels/flights if they only look at league records? I’m asking as it seems to me a lot more older teams at tournaments have had guest player ( jerseys without numbers, tape to alter numbers or slightly different jerseys) than I’ve ever noticed before and wondered if teams might be trying to increase their raking at YSR to get the flight they want. I realize in most cases guest players are allowed and this can be a good way for a team to tryout a new player and vice versa, but when used to simply stack a team it makes the rankings valueless. My guess is that with the covid shakeup of teams and the number of new teams at Socal, that this fall there will be some misplaced teams, but hopefully it will get straightened out by the following season.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Does anyone know if when forming the different levels/flights if they only look at league records? I’m asking as it seems to me a lot more older teams at tournaments have had guest player ( jerseys without numbers, tape to alter numbers or slightly different jerseys) than I’ve ever noticed before and wondered if teams might be trying to increase their raking at YSR to get the flight they want. I realize in most cases guest players are allowed and this can be a good way for a team to tryout a new player and vice versa, but when used to simply stack a team it makes the rankings valueless. My guess is that with the covid shakeup of teams and the number of new teams at Socal, that this fall there will be some misplaced teams, but hopefully it will get straightened out by the following season.

Reguarding all the guesting its more likely that because of Covid this summer is the first time players have had an opportunity to check out other teams.

Also players are excited to just have fun again playing games.

 

[Caltek]

Does anyone know if when forming the different levels/flights if they only look at league records? I’m asking as it seems to me a lot more older teams at tournaments have had guest player ( jerseys without numbers, tape to alter numbers or slightly different jerseys) than I’ve ever noticed before and wondered if teams might be trying to increase their raking at YSR to get the flight they want. I realize in most cases guest players are allowed and this can be a good way for a team to tryout a new player and vice versa, but when used to simply stack a team it makes the rankings valueless. My guess is that with the covid shakeup of teams and the number of new teams at Socal, that this fall there will be some misplaced teams, but hopefully it will get straightened out by the following season.

Thing is they don’t have to justify anything …the doc says I want these teams in this flight and that’s it

 

[timbuck]

Does anyone know if when forming the different levels/flights if they only look at league records? I’m asking as it seems to me a lot more older teams at tournaments have had guest player ( jerseys without numbers, tape to alter numbers or slightly different jerseys) than I’ve ever noticed before and wondered if teams might be trying to increase their raking at YSR to get the flight they want. I realize in most cases guest players are allowed and this can be a good way for a team to tryout a new player and vice versa, but when used to simply stack a team it makes the rankings valueless. My guess is that with the covid shakeup of teams and the number of new teams at Socal, that this fall there will be some misplaced teams, but hopefully it will get straightened out by the following season.

I dont think this summer will be a great indicator of what 05 and older teams will ultimately look like. Maybe as we get closer to mid-August.
A LOT of carnage among older teams. A few teams will have big rosters (17+) and many will scrape by with 13 (or less).
It will take until next year (if we don't have any further lockdowns) to get things sorted out.

I think we will see a similar fallout across high school teams this year too. I know quite a few kids who will seniors that have hung up their cleats.

 

[mlx]

Thing is they don’t have to justify anything …the doc says I want these teams in this flight and that’s it

And I don't see this as something wrong...

These are not pro squads who we know will stay together.

Maybe a team in F3 destroyed the competition but half of the team left, would the league do any good if they place this team in F2? if the DOC says it should remains in F3 it should.

The opposite case can happen, a middle of the table F2 maybe got new players and by the end, they formed a killer team that deserves to be in F1 or maybe Discovery. Do the results in the league reflect this? of course not. Their coach and their DOC know.

I know some DOCs would place some F3 teams on F1 just to keep parents happy or whatnot, but I believe that's not the norm.

 

[Primetime]

What happened to that squad that moved from F2 to F1? I'd be willing to bet if they stuck in F1 again the following year, they'd see an improvement (maybe not win the league, but be more competitive than 0-11-1). Speed of play takes some time to adjust to and the higher the flight, usually the faster the speed of play. But in many cases, the moment a team has a losing record, players jump ship to the shiny team that was top 3 in the league- vs sticking it out with teammates and trying to improve as a team.

The Fall season is only 10-12 games. Teams should be looking for tournaments, spring and summer play (league or scrimmages) to get used to the next level. I know a lot of coaches who will only set up scrimmages against teams they are pretty sure they can beat, where they really should be either testing things against tougher teams or experimenting with tactical adjustments against equal or weaker teams. But the moment they get scored on by a weaker team, they go into "MUST WIN NOW" mode and the team doesn't learn a new way to try and play.

We’ll they’re playing Discovery now of course, isn’t everyone, lol. So yes they improved. Took time but also took constantly playing teams out of our league. I’m not the coach that schedules lower teams for any games or events, I’m the coach that schedules us to get our buts kicked and constantly pushing forward. Which parents and players don’t always appreciate cause we don’t always get hardware. But I’m all about can we compete at “X” Level not can we win or dominate. When you watch a game does it look like we belong there. The score is sometimes secondary baring it’s close of course. I’d rather be competitive and lose at Flight 1 than win league or be undefeated at Flight 2. When teams are older what matters most anyways is the college showcases and their not handing out trophies on Sunday at those events.

Back to my original point which is as a parent, coach, DOC , fan, ect I could really care less how many levels there are as long as the games are as competitive as possible. My kids play a lot of other sports like Cross country, volleyball among a few and I feel like there’s so many play levels in all of those as well. I don’t feel like it makes a difference to me as a parent which they play as long as it looks like they belong there.

 

[Primetime]

And I don't see this as something wrong...

These are not pro squads who we know will stay together.

Maybe a team in F3 destroyed the competition but half of the team left, would the league do any good if they place this team in F2? if the DOC says it should remains in F3 it should.

The opposite case can happen, a middle of the table F2 maybe got new players and by the end, they formed a killer team that deserves to be in F1 or maybe Discovery. Do the results in the league reflect this? of course not. Their coach and their DOC know.

I know some DOCs would place some F3 teams on F1 just to keep parents happy or whatnot, but I believe that's not the norm.

Very good points. To be honest I actually feel like I have to push my coaches to play up more than anything. Most of my coaches are always worried about taking too many loses and having a mutiny on their hand so they’d rather stay in a comfortable flight that they know they’ll have guaranteed success. Just a month ago had a coach go undefeated in flight 2 and wanted to stay there again, same squad. His reasoning was “well when we play flight 1 teams we always lose”. He doesn’t realize that’s the process, lol. I’d say every league season on average I have about 1 coach who wants to put his team at too high a level where they don’t belong and I have about 3-4 trying to stay at too low a level. Everyone else is in the ball park. That’s why I make sure I personally watch all of our teams play a lot and I check every score of every game so when these situations come up I know I can have valid input to be able to place them where they belong. But agree that isn’t always the case at other clubs In a few of these situations.

 

[Soccer]

Discovery NPL schedule is posted.

Schedule | SOCAL Soccer League

www.socalsoccerleague.org

 

[Curious]

Discovery NPL schedule is posted.

Schedule | SOCAL Soccer League

www.socalsoccerleague.org

Okay this is crazy, when I saw that original list of teams for Discovery Division I thought it must just be a list of teams that had applied for the Discovery division. Well I was wrong and they all seam to be in the Discovery Division. Many of those teams are very good and have a legitimate claim on playing Discovery, but for the age I looked closely at, I would say close to 25% shouldn’t be in that division. I’m now left wondering if the league has a plan to deal with this, maybe there won’t be a Champions division this year and the lower half of the Discovery teams will be Champions next year. I’m sure very soon I’ll be proven wrong yet again, but in the mean time it is entertaining to try to guess what the plan is.

 

[Soccer]

Okay this is crazy, when I saw that original list of teams for Discovery Division I thought it must just be a list of teams that had applied for the Discovery division. Well I was wrong and they all seam to be in the Discovery Division. Many of those teams are very good and have a legitimate claim on playing Discovery, but for the age I looked closely at, I would say close to 25% shouldn’t be in that division. I’m now left wondering if the league has a plan to deal with this, maybe there won’t be a Champions division this year and the lower half of the Discovery teams will be Champions next year. I’m sure very soon I’ll be proven wrong yet again, but in the mean time it is entertaining to try to guess what the plan is.

what is going to be difficult to explain by their coaches. Is when they are relegated as to why that is so. SoCal Allowed everyone in who applied, due to COVID. But next year there will only be a maximum of 15 teams in the north and 15 teams in the south. So there will be a lot of relegation. And it does not mean if you finish in the top 15 you necessarily will be automatically in discovery next year. There may be a champions team that will take your spot.

 

[lafalafa]

what is going to be difficult to explain by their coaches. Is when they are relegated as to why that is so. SoCal Allowed everyone in who applied, due to COVID. But next year there will only be a maximum of 15 teams in the north and 15 teams in the south. So there will be a lot of relegation. And it does not mean if you finish in the top 15 you necessarily will be automatically in discovery next year. There may be a champions team that will take your spot.

Doubtful, there is always talk about bunch of relegation but in the end doesn't happen. There are some clubs with multiples per age group in disco so maybe those or some others will realize it's too much but I won't be surprised to see 45 teams again in that division next go around.

The draw of the extra $$ fees for the league and status for the clubs with Doc's willing to put in teams in to draw players in is something thats likely to continue. When there is a will and $$ at stake there is a way. Have to keep up with the Joneses from those other league(s)