MacDre
PREMIER
Please give your detailed expert opinion as to why I’m wrong. I don’t mind being proved wrong. I’m waiting.
Days between Games- 2 games a weekend is a BAD idea
- Thread starter timbuck
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outside!
DA
DD said of HS soccer, "a waist high ball 5 yards away from you counts as a pass". The players know what is better soccer and they know much more than you or I.
outside!
DA
College soccer is choppy partially because the players are getting used to a faster speed of play than HS and club soccer. You can see the ideas at times, but often the execution is slightly off.
MacDre
PREMIER
No sir. Your daughter has never played professionally or practiced with a professional team. I have observed my kid develop in a professional environment over the last 10 years. Many of my players friends parents are professional first team team soccer players; Edgar Castillo was in the USMNT pool for reference.
I get that HS ball is bad…but, my point is that club soccer is equally bad because the emphasis is wrong. To me, it appears the emphasis in club soccer is to over dribble and do dumb shit when the emphasis should be on the speed of play and decision making. Therefore, you are making a distinction without a difference because over dribbling and bad decision making are not the skills that make an elite player.
MacDre
PREMIER
No. Running faster is actually a slow speed of play. The ball is faster than any human. Lots of low level transitional play and fast running in college. The problem once again is that players lack basic fundamentals and can’t move the ball fast.
I guarantee you can’t post a college game male or female displaying a fast speed of play!
Somewhat of a tangent, but can I ask the contrast with American gridiron football? The coaches there don't have much more time (over the summer a little) and though it's changing, the younger ages don't really have club...just peewee football and rec flag football. Is it just that American gridiron football is more simple to learn than association football? Is it that it's a male only sport and therefore just more rooted in brute force.
Basketball is also interesting. Most of the recruitment takes place still in high school. But it's also true that high school cannot teach (given the short season) the player the necessary skills. So basketball has developed a growing and very rigorous club season, but one that is focused on preparing players to play high school. It's still possible if you ball in the barrio or hood to learn those skills playing pickup games. But increasingly athletes are relying on early professional training (like in association football) and we have facilities rising up like Kobe Bryant's Mamba. Still, despite the early training and clubs, clubs are subsidiary to high school which is where the recruitment takes place. I wonder why soccer didn't follow that model?
I know why club soccer arose as an organization...it was because AYSO and rec soccer (much like rec basketball) failed players that were seeking to develop and rather than tier them had everyone play together (which didn't develop the advanced players and frustrated the slower ones). But it doesn't explain why, like basketball, that mantle isn't passed to high school once they hit that age. Maybe basketball will eventually become entirely club based like soccer?
Interestingly water polo, lacrosse, competitive swim, and even competitive band follow a similar model (early private and club training but the clubs aren't as deep in high school except as a support and training mechanism for the high school season). Gymnastics seems to be closer to the soccer model. Cheer I'm not sure about, nor baseball (with which the decline of the minor leagues has also changed somewhat).
Why is soccer this unicorn? I'm genuinely curious in people's opinion.
From a technical ability, speed of play and decision making, the match I watched was totally on par with the kids I see playing top level club soccer. Some of which will move on to MLS academies and are getting national team camp invites in the next year.
Are there some D1 teams that might be better than I saw? Sure. Recently a coach I know shed some insight that the best soccer players today either attempt the professional path and bypass the college route all together or don’t have the grades and test scores to get accepted into a D1 school. So college players today are more of the best students that also play soccer, versus the best youth soccer players.
Soccer is a sport where players are constantly running for X minutes. I'm not understanding how going slower might help what?
Player run what 70 % of the actual minutes of the game, what should be different?
More passing the ball around, ticky tacky style or what actually should be different?
Maybe I'm bias since our son's where blessed with speed, daughter just above average but she has a good engine and stamina. Conditioning and being able to main that speed the whole 90 well that's a gift that only the youngest was able to maintain or surpass at the college level.
SoccerFan4Life
PREMIER
Great point that you make. I think Basketball and Baseball are becoming(Maybe it's already there) similar to Soccer. The other difference is that at the college level, soccer teams consist of players from all over the world (D1). There's not too many countries playing Football so the talent pool comes from the USA mostly. Ideally (Not possible anytime soon) it would be great to see club soccer end by 10th grade and let high school soccer run the program to allow ALL players to be scouted by colleges
For boys, we still need academies for those going pro but not 15 to 20 academies in one region.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
I don't want to speak for him but this may be at the heart of what @MacDre is saying and he doesn't see this as elite soccer. As "just a dad", my opinion is that to reach the technical level to play with the kind of one-touches displayed in Mac's video, it takes MUCH more focused work than what girls could possibly get in their formal training - assuming their formal training even focuses on these skills. One bad touch in the middle of the field and the ball is coming back at you in a hurry. Teams that attempt to play this way without the appropriate technical level get punished quickly. As @Grace T. stated in another post (more or less) goals in soccer are often due to mistakes with the ball.
MacDre
PREMIER
Stop the name calling. If you have something of value to contribute then present your information. Otherwise, you and your fanboys are throwing shade.
I’m not trolling. I’m putting my thoughts out in the open. Please feel free to critique.
As mentioned up thread, I’m a basketball dude. In talking to friends and family I have noticed there are lots of problems with AAU basketball and I see the same problems in club soccer but folks ain’t talking it. Here ya go:
Steve Kerr's Thoughts on "Counterproductive" AAU Culture - Ballislife.com
An image of Coach of the Year Steve Kerr with the following quote about AAU basketball, from a…
ballislife.com
MacDre
PREMIER
You got it! But I’ll take it a step further and say that our attitudes in regards to women soccer make us collectively look like idiots abroad. We walk around and pound our chest about being the champs at women’s soccer, and the world is laughing at us because they don’t care about women’s sports to the extent that we do. Now, that women’s sports are becoming more competitive internationally we are too arrogant and stupid to focus on fundamentals. Instead, we keep bragging about winning championships that absolutely no one cared about.
I’m embarrassed and we need to do better collectively.
outside!
DA
I completely agree that over dribbling and making bad decisions are problems in US club and college soccer. But Mexican professional soccer has a huge problem with over dribbling and making poor decisions also. Mexico was one of the teams I was pulling for in the last men's WC and over dribbling and poor passes were the main thing that knocked them out.
I have seen quality one and two touch passing sequences in college games, but only for brief periods.
Simisoccerfan
PREMIER
Are you talking men's or womens's soccer? If men's I can agree with some of your points. But for women all of the D1 schools are made up of the top youth players who certainly have gotten better since they were young girls. Maybe two or three pro women soccer players in the US have bypassed college soccer.
MacDre
PREMIER
Mexican soccer definitely has it’s problems. However, in Mexico up until U17 it’s all about basic fundamentals. The development program throughout Mexico is called Fuerzas Basicas which translates into basic fundamentals.
I’m trying to get the conversation started about what basic fundamentals parents should help their players focus on because many are clearly being misled for financial gain by club soccer.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
It is also my opinion that a significant factor in our womens' dominance of soccer is/was due to the lack of opportunity for girls to play soccer in other countries. In terms of training, I don't really believe there has been a significant difference in the training focus for US girls'/womens' side and US boys'/mens' side and both produce comparable styles of play. I distinctly remember watching the US vs. Mexico men many times and every time coming away thinking the Mexican side had better skills and played more attractive soccer despite the fact that the US won at least as often - playing what I assume you would call "turbo" soccer. It is a reasonable strategy when the other team is more skilled but I feel that style limits a teams' ceiling. I also think it will be difficult to change the approach to training in the US as many of those in charge have only known that style.
Simisoccerfan
PREMIER
The main issue I see is what I call the old ladies of women's soccer. In order to make any decent money a player needs to be on the National Team and get their stipend. There are tons of great players graduating from college but there is no path to making money with these older players hanging on for the stipend. There are maybe 20-30 players that can really get paid. If they are all young you can get have a good thing run for a few years but as they get older it is tough for younger players to break in. Now with the NWSL in turmoil who knows what will happen.
Yeah, but that's changing in Europe with the extension of the academies to women's play.
On the men's side, college soccer is actually a detriment to developing professional players. Subpar training and play for only part of the year. It's why the flop outs from the academy system in Europe come to play college here (they are off their academic tracks in Europe).
To the extent European women's soccer is becoming more like men's soccer, that's a potential vulnerability for the USWNT. They'll still have the advantage of a huge base of players (while men's soccer has to compete with football, basketball, baseball and water sports) so they'll always be competitive, but whether they will be as dominant as they have been is an open question. As a result, you'll have the European, ANZ, and North American team continue to increasingly wipe out the Latin American and Asian teams (with possible exceptions for China and Japan), leading to two tiers effectively of women's soccer.