SoCal Schedule

[The Soccer Dr]

All true but the issue was that pro rel didn’t really work out any better when it was in place with coast. Lots of problems: recruitment not development was rewarded; big clubs because they could afford the marketing still controlled….yes you had some random teams here and there that would pop up and succeed it was still leaning towards big clubs; you had to establish a high playing level early in order to maintain that recruitment; as a result coaches were very incentivized to take short cuts in order to get the win including booting balls, recruiting near the age line, and not building it from the back. Just going back to the old system doesn’t fix anything. The old system broke and SoCal was founded for market reasons. Both things can be true at the same time: the current system is broken, going back to the old system won’t fix it.

Open access, team based, promotion relegation is not a broken system it is the fairest system. Everyone can get into play, you play where the results on the field dictate, and there is nothing stopping you rise except your performance on the field. Having an eco system in Southern California based upon these principles allows everyone to find a place to play Rec - competitive - elite - school, four different experiences, four different cost structures and families get to choose which one makes sense for them - time wise, expense wise, travel wise, and enjoyment wise. Each level of play is valuable, each has a purpose, and each is critical to the game thriving here in Southern California.

 

[superfly10]

All true but the issue was that pro rel didn’t really work out any better when it was in place with coast. Lots of problems: recruitment not development was rewarded; big clubs because they could afford the marketing still controlled….yes you had some random teams here and there that would pop up and succeed it was still leaning towards big clubs; you had to establish a high playing level early in order to maintain that recruitment; as a result coaches were very incentivized to take short cuts in order to get the win including booting balls, recruiting near the age line, and not building it from the back. Just going back to the old system doesn’t fix anything. The old system broke and SoCal was founded for market reasons. Both things can be true at the same time: the current system is broken, going back to the old system won’t fix it.

There has to be a mix of new system and old system to get things back on track. And it's the point you made, recruitment is priority, not development. SOCAL doesn't do a good job of managing this anyways -- get to the fall season and see how many teams club pass players just to win games (and teams bypass the rules all the time because refs don't check player cards, match reports, etc).

Relegation was done away with because teams would fold and clubs lose money. It was simple. (But coming in last usually made players go elsewhere anyways).

The problem also lies with SOCAL and letting it be free promotion. A team can come in last in Flight 2 and then promote as Flight 1 the following season for recruiting purposes (or jump from Flight 3 all the way to Flight 1). It used to be where you actually had to do an application for Flight 1 and get approved, that doesn't happen anymore.

Mix that with clubs promising the world to teams to come over so they can fill spots in the abbreviation leagues (legitimate elite teams and clubs aren't looking to fill roster spots in August). I don't know how many last place flight 1 or even flight 2 teams have gone from that result to DPL status in a few short months.

 

[Grace T.]

Open access, team based, promotion relegation is not a broken system it is the fairest system. Everyone can get into play, you play where the results on the field dictate, and there is nothing stopping you rise except your performance on the field. Having an eco system in Southern California based upon these principles allows everyone to find a place to play Rec - competitive - elite - school, four different experiences, four different cost structures and families get to choose which one makes sense for them - time wise, expense wise, travel wise, and enjoyment wise. Each level of play is valuable, each has a purpose, and each is critical to the game thriving here in Southern California.

That's nonsense. Unless you tie player to teams (which is why it works on the pro and semi pro level) so they can't hop, pro rel only rewards teams that can recruit. There's absolutely NO merit there. My son started in CSL back in bronze when he first started out. The same thing happened every year: the team finished third...the best two players would leave to a higher level team...the team had to start completely from scratch just when it was finding its rhythm...eventually he jumped too. We stuck with the coach because he was probably one of the two best coaches he had.

There's no meritocracy there. It's just who can recruit the best. The daddy baller which starts off with the great striker has an inherent advantage in recruitment as do the big clubs. And it's horrible for development because they'll just short cut around it for the win.

The only way you fix it is if you tie the team and players together (even loosely like they do in CIF). The players can't switch teams unless they move. The team can't drop the player unless they trade them. Once they form, they are stuck together. Everyone would hate that.

 

[Grace T.]

There has to be a mix of new system and old system to get things back on track. And it's the point you made, recruitment is priority, not development. SOCAL doesn't do a good job of managing this anyways -- get to the fall season and see how many teams club pass players just to win games (and teams bypass the rules all the time because refs don't check player cards, match reports, etc).

Relegation was done away with because teams would fold and clubs lose money. It was simple. (But coming in last usually made players go elsewhere anyways).

The problem also lies with SOCAL and letting it be free promotion. A team can come in last in Flight 2 and then promote as Flight 1 the following season for recruiting purposes (or jump from Flight 3 all the way to Flight 1). It used to be where you actually had to do an application for Flight 1 and get approved, that doesn't happen anymore.

Mix that with clubs promising the world to teams to come over so they can fill spots in the abbreviation leagues (legitimate elite teams and clubs aren't looking to fill roster spots in August). I don't know how many last place flight 1 or even flight 2 teams have gone from that result to DPL status in a few short months.

It was worse than that. Teams looking at relegation would explode by mid season. They'd just forfeit which meant everyone lost out on games. I agree the current system isn't working. That doesn't logically mean that the former system was great. Two things can be true at the same time.

 

[The Soccer Dr]

The only part that I'd push back on is the belief that a closed system encourages backmarker clubs/teams more than an "open" system where there is more "fair" access for teams/clubs to join. There are backmarker teams in pretty much every level of sport, as the whole system depends on one team winning and the other team losing. In some cases, teams lose *alot*. It happens in every bracket, from top to bottom. There's a (false) belief by some that once you get to the very top levels, there won't be objectively bad teams that are much worse than the best, or even worse than the average, but that's not true. There are terrible MLS teams, there are terrible ECNL teams, and there are terrible teams in every other bracket all the way down. Pro/rel would make it a little more fluid in terms of preventing a club/team from keeping an extremely poor-performing team in place for a long time - but they'd just be replaced by the next team to perform poorly, the outcome itself doesn't go away.

The closed league system is workable, but it should not claim that all the best teams play in it. There are great teams, good teams, and poor teams all playing in the league. Clubs in different club leagues refuse to play against one another for reasons not related to competition. Club based and team based leagues are here to stay, but if you want to lower costs, you have to play local. if teams in the same city never play one another for fear of bursting the illusion, how is that the best system. Creating a Southern California ecosystem where teams play one another, don't spend days on a plane, and thousands of dollars on travel when there are 1000's of teams right here is the way forward. The clubs, coaches, and teams not happy with the current model need to come together and agree to open access, team based performance, promotion and relegation, with local play that leads into regional play, and were needed play up. It's fair, gives the same opportunity to everyone, teams compete at the right level, and it costs less. The best of Southern California, can compete with the best anywhere, we just don't know the the best is.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

The closed league system is workable, but it should not claim that all the best teams play in it.

The problem that you're dealing with is while many of your points of view are valid, this isn't one of them. All of the best youth teams in the US *do* play in the closed leagues. Best defined as the one that is most likely to win the game at a national level, or even a state level. Anyone arguing otherwise is either intentionally misrepresenting reality, or doesn't have the first clue in understanding the sport.

There are great teams, good teams, and poor teams all playing in the league.

This is absolutely true. But it doesn't prove the inverse, that there are awesome teams that have decided not to play in these leagues.

The best of Southern California, can compete with the best anywhere, we just don't know the the best is.

It's a nice thought, and SoCal is certainly one of the hotbeds of youth soccer. We've all had a pretty reliable way to judge soccer team strength for quite a few years now, and SoCal is heavily weighted with some of the best. But it's not unique, and certainly isn't guaranteed to have all of the best teams.

 

[Karlton Athletic]

The problem that you're dealing with is while many of your points of view are valid, this isn't one of them. All of the best youth teams in the US *do* play in the closed leagues. Best defined as the one that is most likely to win the game at a national level, or even a state level. Anyone arguing otherwise is either intentionally misrepresenting reality, or doesn't have the first clue in understanding the sport.

Some of those LA City United teams would disagree with you. They routinely beat MLS Next HG and ECNL teams, yet the closed leagues won't let them in for obvious, $10 a month fees, reasons.

 

[Jamisfoes]

Some of those LA City United teams would disagree with you. They routinely beat MLS Next HG and ECNL teams, yet the closed leagues won't let them in for obvious, $10 a month fees, reasons.

If the system were open, some of those so called “best teams” in the closed system will get relegated.

 

[East County Soccer Dad]

Some of those LA City United teams would disagree with you. They routinely beat MLS Next HG and ECNL teams, yet the closed leagues won't let them in for obvious, $10 a month fees, reasons.

Read my mind. hopefully they blow thru N1 and at least get into ecrl

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Some of those LA City United teams would disagree with you. They routinely beat MLS Next HG and ECNL teams, yet the closed leagues won't let them in for obvious, $10 a month fees, reasons.

We all have access to see the same game results. LA City has some good teams, but they don't routinely beat any decent MLS N or ECNL teams. They compete with average ones at best. Of all of their age groups they have a single team in the top 20 for CA (U16), and most other age groups don't crack the top 50. They are by no definition "one of the best teams" in CA, let alone in the US. They are evidently a good set of teams, and it would be a great story if they could compete with the best. But they can't, and aren't. Maybe the landscape can change at some point so that can happen.

 

[Karlton Athletic]

We all have access to see the same game results. LA City has some good teams, but they don't routinely beat any decent MLS N or ECNL teams. They compete with average ones at best. Of all of their age groups they have a single team in the top 20 for CA (U16), and most other age groups don't crack the top 50. They are by no definition "one of the best teams" in CA, let alone in the US. They are evidently a good set of teams, and it would be a great story if they could compete with the best. But they can't, and aren't. Maybe the landscape can change at some point so that can happen.

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I thought the whole point was we were talking about individual teams, not clubs though?

That U16 team (the longest established), is beating MLS Next HG and NL teams regularly this summer, and is in the top 20 in California, which seems to me a reasonable definition of “one of the best teams in California.”

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

I'm not sure what the main point is, but yes - that team seems fine, as the 1 team in that club that is seeing a fair amount of success against other good teams. But even if we accept them as the exception that proves the rule - it still shows that if a team aspires to be one of the best - it's almost impossible to do it outside of the top closed leagues. This particular team has to play up a year in SoCal to see reasonable competition, and rarely gets to face decent teams at tournaments - who often use those same non-league tournaments as showcases/tuneups rather than playing the top roster to win.

And if you then try to find another team like them in the top 100, not in one of the "closed" leagues, it gets pretty hard to do in most age groups. If the premise is that the best teams are in the closed leagues, it's awfully hard to show that premise false by pointing out a bunch of "best" teams that aren't there. There just aren't very many at all.

 

[superfly10]

Read my mind. hopefully they blow thru N1 and at least get into ecrl

This is the issue: They can go undefeated in N1 this season and will not get into ECNL RL unless they go to a club that has that status. Single teams are not getting the status because that is not how its structured.

I still don't fully know how promotion past N1 is going to work because the club needs the status to offer that to its teams. This hasn't been explained. I mentioned the example of Bell Gardens FC, they have a couple good teams there but their club will NEVER get ECNL status so those teams are blocked.

 

[shankbone]

This is the issue: They can go undefeated in N1 this season and will not get into ECNL RL unless they go to a club that has that status. Single teams are not getting the status because that is not how its structured.

I still don't fully know how promotion past N1 is going to work because the club needs the status to offer that to its teams. This hasn't been explained. I mentioned the example of Bell Gardens FC, they have a couple good teams there but their club will NEVER get ECNL status so those teams are blocked.

The ECNL and the money making subsidiaries ECRL/ECRL CA are a closed system - its the honeypot that does -

The structure itself has to change - and that is hard in Socal due to logistics - the closed leagues are all set up on the logistics of U13-U19 all show up 6 games in a row - you get better facilities requirement and then you get better refs and you get better competition.

There are plenty of so-so ENCL teams- and the occcasional super team - its all driven by the top 3 talent on the individual team. Bell Gardens or LA City United can luck into/develop some talent - but talent isn't equal - it just pops out from time to time.

 

[shankbone]

Landon Donovan and Tim Howard - the youth soccer talk starts around the 10 minute mark. US Soccer taking over USYS... first. The goal is to take the money out of the equation.

Good luck with that - this is America - but its a noble cause.

 

[Scrub It Kook]

I would not expect any promotion past N1 unless a club has 4 of 6 age groups in the top 3 spots. Even then, it will be hard pressed based on inter-club politics. Perhaps that will change over time, but who knows.

I believe the ECNL addressed this on one of their podcasts about 'building the pyramid" shortly after N1 was announced.

 

[Jamisfoes]

I would not expect any promotion past N1 unless a club has 4 of 6 age groups in the top 3 spots. Even then, it will be hard pressed based on inter-club politics. Perhaps that will change over time, but who knows.

I believe the ECNL addressed this on one of their podcasts about 'building the pyramid" shortly after N1 was announced.

The rankings app is showing the current ranking in a closed system which gives all the advantages to ecnl and mls next. If LA city is producing good teams despite being locked out, that means their coaches must be able to retain players through scouting/ good coaching/ charisma. LA city teams will be supercharged in an open system.

 

[Scrub It Kook]

The rankings app is showing the current ranking in a closed system which gives all the advantages to ecnl and mls next. If LA city is producing good teams despite being locked out, that means their coaches must be able to retain players through scouting/ good coaching/ charisma. LA city teams will be supercharged in an open system.

Maybe. I think LA City United is a city run program that is heavily subsidized so that could certainly help with attraction and retention. I would venture a guess it's as much about the soccer culture in that community as the coaching. They'd be an outlier along with Bell Gardens where an open system could help. The vast majority of other clubs however do not put up the same results. So ultimately, the closed leagues hold 90% - 95% of the top teams.

I don't think even EPL academy's play in open leagues. They only play grass-roots teams in cups or tournaments and there's a similar dynamic where some grass-roots are competitive.