MLS2

I think it's really hard to get a sense of where your child is at within the same club. There are so many different motivating factors for how and when players are moved up (and almost never down), and not all of those have to do with ability. Notwithstanding cost and bias (and parental complaints), it would be beneficial to get more independent evaluations of players, particularly as they get to mid-youth age (ie: 13+), and have pathways to move good players up (either within the same club, across clubs, or otherwise).

I agree that it's hard to rate players in a vacuum, and make a decision programmatically whether all of their attributes would place them objectively on team A, B, or C. Especially if someone needs to make these judgements with limited information from tryouts.

But people are fooling themselves if they think it's hard to recognize relative talent once kids are playing on a team. Ask any parent on any team, and if you asked them to name the top 3 players on the team - most of the parents (and coaches) will name the same 3, even if their weightings of different attributes vary. Now whether the club is conducive to always moving talent upwards to try and create the ultimately strongest top team, depends on the club's juggling of various priorities.
 
It comes from the academies. Core players at the academies are designated hg and ad. Hg are eligible for selection to mls pro and mls. Ad is not. Sounds like they carried over the distinction because they were familiar with it. Hg means something for the salary caps at pro and mls.
yea 100%. it's confusing for those not following MLS tho.

as an academy player, you dream about being the homegrown player (i.e. get signed onto the senior team) like Nathan Ordaz on LAFC or Harbor Miller on Galaxy.

most people don't follow MLS or know that's what that is. they hear "academy" and they think "oh top team!" -_-
 
I know a kid who plays on an ECNL tam and an MSLN team... so yea happens...

And lotta kids are still playing their Sunday leagues on top of MLSN anyway...
Yes, and it's both legal and encouraged - as long as they are rostered as Futures players within MLS N. Players with that label can play on any other team that their club gives them permission to, and the receiving leagues are generally happy to have them play there as well.

But, Futures players are limited to only 12 games during the MLS N season, only a certain number of kids can be labelled futures for the season, and once you're labelled future, you can't be un-labelled until the next season. So there is strong incentive not to label any standout (or even any decent) players as futures, because they can only have minutes in less than half the games. The issue is the the other leagues don't know the details about this, nor do they care much about this. So a MLS N club can get a player card for the other leagues for one of their standouts, and play them down whenever they like, even if they aren't labelled futures. Any non-MLS team that believes that are coming up against this should submit an Ethicspoint complaint to MLS N about the guilty club's apparent violation of their code of conduct. They will investigate.
 
There are definitely hundreds of kids stopped playing soccer after AYSO because of the cost (or transportation issue), not because of technical or athletic ability.

probably a true statement.

but also true is "top end of that group in technical or athletic ability if they had passion to keep playing were given scholarships or given spots at Galaxy or LAFC to play for free"

so while the statement is true, I don't think it has the effect of "oh we are losing all this talent to club soccer being expensive".
I think we lose many more to disinterest and bad influence and home chaos and etc.

i was just on reddit on youth soccer thread and a kid (16 years old) was saying "oh I'm a top ECNL player, gotten trials at academies and youth national team but I want to be a model and an actor so I want to quit but don't know how to tell my parents".

maybe some, but most are picked up by academies and top clubs. we've always carried a scholarship player on our teams throughout the years who genuinely needed the financial help.

(side note: I do see some who are on scholarships roll into games in a new truck... so I'm conflicted...)
 
One of the biggest issues with soccer in the U.S. is that the talent funnel is broken. Ideally, the best players would move into MLSN and ECNL clubs, the next tier into MLSN Academy/ECRL/NPL teams, and so on down the pyramid. In reality, costs, geography, uninformed parents, and clubs unwilling to move players up or down based on performance have created very unbalanced teams and leagues.

I have a child playing in an MLSN Academy (initially called MLSN2), and the disparity between teams has been eye-opening. On one end, you have clubs producing MLS Homegrown-level talent (e.g. Laguna United), while on the other, some teams would likely be no more than above-average Flight 2 sides.

Would be interested to get opinions on how this could be mitigated.

I think it can be mitigated by 2 ways (both are impossible in my view).

1) soccer becomes the #1 sport in the US. pro academies all over the country. LA would have like 30 pro teams - tier 1 to 4. all free and fully funded. kids constantly being developed and sold and let the market do its job in funneling kids into top teams. would be possible if we had 300 fully funded academies across the country and we are soccer crazed like in France or England or Brazil.

2) we become a much small country. US is too big. too sparsely populated outside big cities. too hard to consolidate into one league. too spread out. so everyone comes up with their own. but that makes travel and showcases so difficult.

since we can't actually shrink our country, the solution would be to dismantle all national leagues and everyone play in one league locally. top ecnl and top npl and top mlsn teams would play vs each other in socal. divide it fall and spring season and reset the group after fall (kick out teams that are in the bottom and invite new ones in).

again, all impossible I would say.
 
I think it can be mitigated by 2 ways (both are impossible in my view).

1) soccer becomes the #1 sport in the US. pro academies all over the country. LA would have like 30 pro teams - tier 1 to 4. all free and fully funded. kids constantly being developed and sold and let the market do its job in funneling kids into top teams. would be possible if we had 300 fully funded academies across the country and we are soccer crazed like in France or England or Brazil.

2) we become a much small country. US is too big. too sparsely populated outside big cities. too hard to consolidate into one league. too spread out. so everyone comes up with their own. but that makes travel and showcases so difficult.

since we can't actually shrink our country, the solution would be to dismantle all national leagues and everyone play in one league locally. top ecnl and top npl and top mlsn teams would play vs each other in socal. divide it fall and spring season and reset the group after fall (kick out teams that are in the bottom and invite new ones in).

again, all impossible I would say.
College is also a huge impediment. We lose 4 years of soccer development if it even works since the college season is too short and too kickballing to develop players. You need to take college athletics out of the admissions process…spin off football and basketball.
 
I appreciate your point of view. But by your own writing, IMO you're part of the problem. Your kid isn't playing in an MLS N Academy. Your kid is playing on a team in a league that MLS N set up to fool parents that their kids will be playing with an MLS Academy and getting MLS Academy quality training. They even intentionally misnamed it "Academy Division".

I agree that there will be some MLS2 teams that are high quality, as the 1st teams have so many high quality players to roster that they either have to find a team to put them on, or have them leave the club. But the vast majority of the teams are going to be terrible, made up of kids who aren't skilled enough to make the top team in the club, and yet the club still is happy for them to pay top dollar.
Sorry - I could have written that part more clearly. I'm very well informed on exactly what MLSN-Academy Division is and actually joke to my kid that he is essentially still an Elite Academy player - only thing that has changed is the branding.
 
This is what ChatGPT suggested:

System-Level Solutions


  1. True Promotion/Relegation Within Youth Leagues
    • Create a merit-based ladder across MLSN, ECNL, ECRL, NPL, etc., where clubs must move up or down based on performance and player development, not just brand or politics.
    • This aligns incentives: develop talent or risk sliding down.
  2. National Standards & Audits
    • U.S. Soccer (or MLS Next leadership) should require consistent technical, tactical, and coaching standards across clubs, then audit performance annually.
    • Right now, “MLSN Academy” means very different things depending on geography.
  3. Cost Controls & Subsidies
    • Fund scholarships (from MLS clubs, sponsors, or federation grants) so the best players aren’t filtered out by finances.
    • A kid’s zip code or parents’ wallet shouldn’t dictate their ceiling.
  4. Regional Training Centers
    • U.S. Soccer could re-establish regional centers where the best players (regardless of club) train together periodically.
    • This would balance out the disparities you see from team to team.



Club/Parent-Level Solutions


  1. Club Transparency
    • Clubs should embrace “player movement up/down” without stigma — making it clear that mobility is a sign of progress, not rejection.
    • Parents then see that being shifted isn’t punishment, but part of development.
  2. Parent Education
    • Workshops/webinars for families on the structure of the pyramid, pathways to college/pro, and the real differences between Flight 1, ECRL, MLSN, etc.
    • Most “low information” decisions come from not knowing how the system works.
  3. Shared Player Pools
    • Local clubs could collaborate on joint training environments, where high-potential players across multiple teams are brought together weekly.
    • This reduces the “silo effect” and spreads top talent across regions.
 
Sorry - I could have written that part more clearly. I'm very well informed on exactly what MLSN-Academy Division is and actually joke to my kid that he is essentially still an Elite Academy player - only thing that has changed is the branding.
Meh...don't feel bad....MLSN HG isn't that different unless you are an academy player with HG status. The chief difference is regular MLSN get a shot a college on the boys side, but otherwise they are essentially playing rec too (a handful of non academy teams/programs excepted).

This is what ChatGPT suggested:

System-Level Solutions


  1. True Promotion/Relegation Within Youth Leagues
    • Create a merit-based ladder across MLSN, ECNL, ECRL, NPL, etc., where clubs must move up or down based on performance and player development, not just brand or politics.
    • This aligns incentives: develop talent or risk sliding down.
  2. National Standards & Audits
    • U.S. Soccer (or MLS Next leadership) should require consistent technical, tactical, and coaching standards across clubs, then audit performance annually.
    • Right now, “MLSN Academy” means very different things depending on geography.
  3. Cost Controls & Subsidies
    • Fund scholarships (from MLS clubs, sponsors, or federation grants) so the best players aren’t filtered out by finances.
    • A kid’s zip code or parents’ wallet shouldn’t dictate their ceiling.
  4. Regional Training Centers
    • U.S. Soccer could re-establish regional centers where the best players (regardless of club) train together periodically.
    • This would balance out the disparities you see from team to team.



Club/Parent-Level Solutions


  1. Club Transparency
    • Clubs should embrace “player movement up/down” without stigma — making it clear that mobility is a sign of progress, not rejection.
    • Parents then see that being shifted isn’t punishment, but part of development.
  2. Parent Education
    • Workshops/webinars for families on the structure of the pyramid, pathways to college/pro, and the real differences between Flight 1, ECRL, MLSN, etc.
    • Most “low information” decisions come from not knowing how the system works.
  3. Shared Player Pools
    • Local clubs could collaborate on joint training environments, where high-potential players across multiple teams are brought together weekly.
    • This reduces the “silo effect” and spreads top talent across regions.
Chat GPT as usual is dumb and doesn't know the background

-pro/rel makes the problem worse, not better. It creates the SoCal Elite situation.
-supposedly they have those standards now. The problem is the $$$ to afford technical directors to go in and audit/train/punish non performing clubs. Europe doesn't do this for rec. The market speaks for itself in Europe.
-cost controls run contrary to the standards it wants to set up in 2, and we have free rides already for gifted players at both professional academies and regular MLSN teams. That's not the issue.
-regional training centers are big $$$. Requires staff, real estate, admin including HR, and insurance. There's a reason those opps are limited to potential USMNT and USWNT players. To get people to buy in you also have to give them something if you are going to charge, otherwise you are just rebuilding the old ODP.
-mobility up and down is the most hilarious suggestion. They walk if you move them down. Of course it's a rejection and you aren't going to convince people otherwise so long as there's real opportunities like pro selections, academies and college tied to it. It works in Europe (somewhat) only because there are low stakes and if you are talented you will get spotted and placed appropriately even in 7th level.
-parent education. Another bureaucratic layer like concussion training???? Whose going to want to do that? Might be useful for parents at U8 U9 who have not had kids go through the system but you can put up the how tos on youtube which would be a good idea.
-Shared player pools would be an excellent idea. I've long advocated for it. Players would be moved around based on their level by independent assessors. I think even having placement directors (instead of coaches) make selections at tier 1 clubs (MLS/ECNL) would go a very long way. But again it's $$$, and for shared across clubs, you'd have to dismantle the independent club system and put them under a national authority (like the old AYSO) because it's in the clubs $$$ interest not to share players or give them opportunities to leave.

The biggest issue is our objectives are not defined. What do we want: a system to build pros (we know what works....see Europe), a system that builds college athletes (which is what we have now), a system that gets wide participation (which is what we had with AYSO), a system that's competitive and offers kids a chance at a trophy like little league used to (which is what we had in the early days of club in the 90s). You can't hit all your targets. If you aim for all of them, you'll hit none of them.
 
The biggest issue is our objectives are not defined. What do we want: a system to build pros (we know what works....see Europe), a system that builds college athletes (which is what we have now), a system that gets wide participation (which is what we had with AYSO), a system that's competitive and offers kids a chance at a trophy like little league used to (which is what we had in the early days of club in the 90s). You can't hit all your targets. If you aim for all of them, you'll hit none of them.

We as Americans want all of it. And don't want to leave kids behind either.

Which as you stated doesn't get anything done.

If we want to compete at the world class level, we have to be willing to lose some money (very un-American I know) and push elite kids to the brink and we'll hopefully cut some diamonds. Many kids will crash and burn (as they do in South America and Europe). Many crashing out in South America and Europe land in American colleges.
 
Something not really mentioned is that MLS has a monopoly on pro mens soccer in America. Which wouldn't be a problem if it was setup correctly. Unfortunately MLS is setup like NFL where the teams aren't independent clubs they're franchises of the league. In essence the league owns the clubs. EPL clubs are all independent and choose to participate in the best league. This is a huge difference, first if all clubs are independent you can do things like pro/rel but also there's no such thing as salary caps. This mostly means whoever has the most $$$ gets the best players. This also let's $$$ trickle down into lower level acadamies who get paid for developing talent. This is why soccer is free in Europe. Its also why Acadamies in other countries can exist in the slums / bad parts of town. All they need to sell is one talented player and they're funded for several years.

This is why MLS will never compete on the international level. It will always be old wash outs that have a name who cant quite make it in other leagues anymore. But you can build a team around them in MLS and fill the seats.

Did you watch Messi when he first stated playing at Inter Miami? He looked like an adult playing against children.
 
so for the new MLSN2 parents what are your cost this year -club and travel?
8-15k just curious did it go up from your previous league (EA)
 
so for the new MLSN2 parents what are your cost this year -club and travel?
8-15k just curious did it go up from your previous league (EA)
Costs are pretty much the same because essentially it's the same competition - just rebranded. EA holds a tournament in Utah, while MLSN2 will hold one in Phoenix - so they cancel each other out.
 
2) we become a much small country. US is too big. too sparsely populated outside big cities. too hard to consolidate into one league. too spread out. so everyone comes up with their own. but that makes travel and showcases so difficult.
since we can't actually shrink our country, the solution would be to dismantle all national leagues and everyone play in one league locally. top ecnl and top npl and top mlsn teams would play vs each other in socal. divide it fall and spring season and reset the group after fall (kick out teams that are in the bottom and invite new ones in).
This model has shown to work well in France. Most of their players are coming out from Paris and its suburbs.
If you look up some articles describing how France produces Dembele, Mbappe, etc. It starts from developing a very good youth development around Paris, almost neglecting the rest of the country.

USA can build that around SoCAL, FLorida, maybe even New York City, Seattle, SF , Dallas and Houston.
 
This model has shown to work well in France. Most of their players are coming out from Paris and its suburbs.
If you look up some articles describing how France produces Dembele, Mbappe, etc. It starts from developing a very good youth development around Paris, almost neglecting the rest of the country.

USA can build that around SoCAL, FLorida, maybe even New York City, Seattle, SF , Dallas and Houston.
The issue is we don't have multiple levels of academies. So the pro MLS academies need to travel great distance to play other similarly talented teams. MLSN1 in turn exists because those academies (including the nontravel/nonHG players) need some people to scrimmage against (or they are not playing at all outside of practice) and therefore we need a national schedule (since high school soccer due to weather and gridiron football is on different calendars around the US & Canada). MLSN2 in turn was justified by the clubs in that they needed places to put their also-rans and to be able to send down players to play who otherwise wouldn't even get to dress.

Only way you'd get that to work is if you ramped down the academy ages (like in Europe) to age 7-9...everyone else who isn't selected can play in a unified local league...but they won't agree to that because they are businesses and the reason we have multiple leagues is because a few big clubs have competitively shut the other ones out in a closed top tier system...they ain't giving that up without kicking and screaming.
 
Something not really mentioned is that MLS has a monopoly on pro mens soccer in America. Which wouldn't be a problem if it was setup correctly. Unfortunately MLS is setup like NFL where the teams aren't independent clubs they're franchises of the league. In essence the league owns the clubs. EPL clubs are all independent and choose to participate in the best league. This is a huge difference, first if all clubs are independent you can do things like pro/rel but also there's no such thing as salary caps. This mostly means whoever has the most $$$ gets the best players. This also let's $$$ trickle down into lower level acadamies who get paid for developing talent. This is why soccer is free in Europe. Its also why Acadamies in other countries can exist in the slums / bad parts of town. All they need to sell is one talented player and they're funded for several years.

This is why MLS will never compete on the international level. It will always be old wash outs that have a name who cant quite make it in other leagues anymore. But you can build a team around them in MLS and fill the seats.

Did you watch Messi when he first stated playing at Inter Miami? He looked like an adult playing against children.
100% agree.

I got to see Messi when Inter Miami played LAFC at the CONCACAF Champions Cup this year. He, Busquets and Alba were still the 3 best players on the pitch despite it being painfully obvious they are well past their prime. As for Suarez, he looked like he needed a wheelchair (lol).
 
Costs are pretty much the same because essentially it's the same competition - just rebranded. EA holds a tournament in Utah, while MLSN2 will hold one in Phoenix - so they cancel each other out.
MLSN2 has two tournaments. Flex in December and Regional finals in March. Finals after end of season for qualifying teams. Flex is optional. Regionals are required.

Cost for our club did go up from EA. The club fees are only a couple hundred less than the Homegrown teams. The overall cost is less because all the games are essentially local. The schedule is great because all the games are Sunday with the high school break and no double game weekends. Makes it attractive for multisport athletes.

Most of these clubs still have EA1/2 teams. The just shifted all their teams up EA2--->EA1--->MLSN2. I think for some clubs field space is now an issue with all these teams.

Watching the games it seems that the quality of play in MLSN2 is better than last years EA1. That may have to do with some teams playing MLS Next players in the league this year. The ones that don't have a difficult time with some blow out scores.
 
This model has shown to work well in France. Most of their players are coming out from Paris and its suburbs.
If you look up some articles describing how France produces Dembele, Mbappe, etc. It starts from developing a very good youth development around Paris, almost neglecting the rest of the country.

USA can build that around SoCAL, FLorida, maybe even New York City, Seattle, SF , Dallas and Houston.

Would be a fantastic idea but will not happen...
 
The issue is we don't have multiple levels of academies. So the pro MLS academies need to travel great distance to play other similarly talented teams. MLSN1 in turn exists because those academies (including the nontravel/nonHG players) need some people to scrimmage against (or they are not playing at all outside of practice) and therefore we need a national schedule (since high school soccer due to weather and gridiron football is on different calendars around the US & Canada). MLSN2 in turn was justified by the clubs in that they needed places to put their also-rans and to be able to send down players to play who otherwise wouldn't even get to dress.

Only way you'd get that to work is if you ramped down the academy ages (like in Europe) to age 7-9...everyone else who isn't selected can play in a unified local league...but they won't agree to that because they are businesses and the reason we have multiple leagues is because a few big clubs have competitively shut the other ones out in a closed top tier system...they ain't giving that up without kicking and screaming.

I think we can make it work if we really wanted to without traveling, especially in SoCal.

Have SD, Galaxy, LAFC play top ECNL and MLS Next teams from SoCal.

For 2012s as an example, it would be Strikers, Legends, FCGS, Sporting CA, SD Surf, Albion Riverside, TFA, Pats, Beach, City SC, etc.

You can have a group of ~15 teams at a very high level that comprises of 3 MLS academies + 5-6 top MLSN teams + 5-6 top ECNL teams.

Play home and away and that's ~30 very competitive matches all within an hour or two at most driving.
 
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