How’s the 2023-24 season going?

Zeke said:
I think the argument is that local games like Surf Cup got Fram with guests, but the out of town showcase got Fram without guests.

Recruiting is one thing, but ringers is another. GA games should be for the GA kids, not just a chance for ECNL players to get extra minutes.
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I understand the argument being made, I'm just not sure that it actually holds up. Fram performed pretty much as expected in Surf Cup. So if they had enough ringers to significantly improve their team, so did at least 2 of the 3 other teams. And those ringers were enough to have all of those teams (not just Fram) perform ~8 goals better per game? That's the insinuation made when comparing home Fram vs. travel Fram. Sounds like there certainly may have been some differences, but discounting them entirely doesn't seem appropriate (or accurate).
 
Carlsbad7 said:
When extra players play with an ECNL team they're "guests"

When extra players play with a GA team they're "ringers"

Got it...
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Regardless of feelings being hurt - yes. If a kid is guesting with a team and is getting significant minutes, the coaches believe that player is better for the team that game than the normal roster. More GA teams would be helped by adding available ECNL guests, than ECNL teams would be helped by adding available GA guests. But each instance should always come down to the specific team, the specific players, and the specific tournament - no universal rule holds up every time.

Carlsbad7 said:
Or maybe parents see through the nonsense + are letting their kids play on the best local team that gives them the most visibility and highest competition level.
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This is a true statement - but does nothing to negate the above. Of course parents (and kids) are interested in playing on the best local team that gives the best visibility/competition/opportunities/logistics. Some folks are fortunate enough to be in an area where there are many different strong choices to pick from. Others (perhaps most?) don't have nearly the same options, and the right choice is much clearer - and more limiting.
 
RandomSoccerFan said:
Regardless of feelings being hurt - yes. If a kid is guesting with a team and is getting significant minutes, the coaches believe that player is better for the team that game than the normal roster. More GA teams would be helped by adding available ECNL guests, than ECNL teams would be helped by adding available GA guests. But each instance should always come down to the specific team, the specific players, and the specific tournament - no universal rule holds up every time.



This is a true statement - but does nothing to negate the above. Of course parents (and kids) are interested in playing on the best local team that gives the best visibility/competition/opportunities/logistics. Some folks are fortunate enough to be in an area where there are many different strong choices to pick from. Others (perhaps most?) don't have nearly the same options, and the right choice is much clearer - and more limiting.
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Interesting response from someone that tends to think in ones and zeros.

Surf Cup, ECNL, GA, every event that I'm aware of calls players not normally associated with a team or club "Guest Players" not "Ringers".

The term Ringer is derogatory in that it implies that a team can't win without them which is why it's not used.
 
DCSoccerDad said:
Charlotte is the only team worth talking about and they couldn't get out of group play in San Diego this year after winning the Mid-Atlantic conference. PDA Blue is historically better club and plays in North Atlantic a far stronger conference than the Mid-atlantic or Southeast, but 2010's are their weakest team...for now. So I still don't think TopHat has beaten anyone worth discussing, or really even played anyone of note. They did beat Bethesda at 9v9 in Spring 2022 but that was 9v9 so only mentioning becuase they only nearly beat them and that same Bethesda team was a final 4 ECNL team this summer 2023. They unfortunately have zero incentive to try and play SoCal teams since they rarely test themselves against the best ECNL teams on the East coast, especially now at the U14 level, so it may be just a what if? scenario for the forseeable future. Koge is king right now but not by much, surprised but not really by Surf's struggles, and I stand by the opinion that MVLA is really the team to beat.
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I really liked watching mvla play and I also said they were the best soccer team in the nation. But now that #15 is not there anymore can we claim that they are still the best team? Didn't #15 drive most their offense?
 
RandomSoccerFan said:
I understand the argument being made, I'm just not sure that it actually holds up. Fram performed pretty much as expected in Surf Cup. So if they had enough ringers to significantly improve their team, so did at least 2 of the 3 other teams. And those ringers were enough to have all of those teams (not just Fram) perform ~8 goals better per game? That's the insinuation made when comparing home Fram vs. travel Fram. Sounds like there certainly may have been some differences, but discounting them entirely doesn't seem appropriate (or accurate).
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That 0-8 loss by Fram was most likely an anomaly that would not happen again. I bet if they play again it would be much closer.
 
Carlsbad7 said:
Interesting response from someone that tends to think in ones and zeros.

Surf Cup, ECNL, GA, every event that I'm aware of calls players not normally associated with a team or club "Guest Players" not "Ringers".

The term Ringer is derogatory in that it implies that a team can't win without them which is why it's not used.
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This isn't Merriam-Webster. The definition of the term isn't the relevant point - but happy to modify word choice if it offends. I truly hadn't realized someone would take "Ringer" as derogatory, and only associated with a player that was brought in because they were not only better than the players being replaced, but probably better than the average (or even stronger) players on the team they are guesting with. I would imagine that all rules/policies would refer to additional players as guests rather than any other casual term.

If a guest player is perceived as good enough to displace existing players - they are better. If a guest player is called up to sit on the bench for 90% of the game because they aren't better than existing players - it's probably a futile exercise for that guest unless they are getting something else out of it.
 
Veritas said:
That 0-8 loss by Fram was most likely an anomaly that would not happen again. I bet if they play again it would be much closer.
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You may very well be right. But if folks discount the results of one game with an indicative opponent from being relevant, and also discount the aggregate results of all games against opponents that aren't as closely connected, it doesn't leave much to talk about until teams actually play head-to-head. That's always going to be the best method in ending any debate about which team is superior (on the day, at least).

But it isn't ever going to happen as much as most might want. Predictive analytics is an alternative method that at least can provide some context on past matches and future matches. The better it is, the closer it will get to actuals over time, but there is certainly some ceiling about how accurately any method can predict the future.
 
Veritas said:
I really liked watching mvla play and I also said they were the best soccer team in the nation. But now that #15 is not there anymore can we claim that they are still the best team? Didn't #15 drive most their offense?
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MVLA was a great team before #15, and they will be a great team after. Great teams adapt. Identifying the "best" team is very subjective, but I do think they play a beautiful style, and they are fun to watch. They have many skilled athletic players who play together as a team.

At this moment, Koge is the best team as they won the ECNL Finals, which is the most objective measure imo. Even that is not a perfect measure as I am not including the GA teams, and the top GA and ECNL teams do not play each other anymore. And I am not considering teams that are not in either ECNL or GA.. maybe there is a dark horse out there.
 
Orangeteam said:
There are plenty of kids moonlighting back and forth between the two leagues to point where it's unclear which team has first rights to the kid during conflicting commitments. I heard at ECNL playoffs about a handful of teams that had kids playing in the GA playoffs and were flying in for the last 1 or 2 ECNL games. Unfortunately, most of these kids would be better served spending the extra time with a ball and wall than the extra games
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If ECNL is getting all the exposure people claim it's getting and providing the biggest platform to players then GA guests have a great reason to to be there.

A ball and a wall are great, but development is not why the guest players are there.
 
The issue is the GA kids get recruited by ECNL but still want to play with their GA teams. They often end up playing with both teams all season long. Quick way to burn kids out
 
youthsoccerfan said:
MVLA was a great team before #15, and they will be a great team after. Great teams adapt. Identifying the "best" team is very subjective, but I do think they play a beautiful style, and they are fun to watch. They have many skilled athletic players who play together as a team.

At this moment, Koge is the best team as they won the ECNL Finals, which is the most objective measure imo. Even that is not a perfect measure as I am not including the GA teams, and the top GA and ECNL teams do not play each other anymore. And I am not considering teams that are not in either ECNL or GA.. maybe there is a dark horse out there.
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I agree, MVLA is a great team. At the highest level one player does not make or break a team
 
DCSoccerDad said:
Charlotte is the only team worth talking about and they couldn't get out of group play in San Diego this year after winning the Mid-Atlantic conference. PDA Blue is historically better club and plays in North Atlantic a far stronger conference than the Mid-atlantic or Southeast, but 2010's are their weakest team...for now. So I still don't think TopHat has beaten anyone worth discussing, or really even played anyone of note. They did beat Bethesda at 9v9 in Spring 2022 but that was 9v9 so only mentioning becuase they only nearly beat them and that same Bethesda team was a final 4 ECNL team this summer 2023. They unfortunately have zero incentive to try and play SoCal teams since they rarely test themselves against the best ECNL teams on the East coast, especially now at the U14 level, so it may be just a what if? scenario for the forseeable future. Koge is king right now but not by much, surprised but not really by Surf's struggles, and I stand by the opinion that MVLA is really the team to beat.
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Tophat tied Charolette 1-1 and then Blues smacked Charolette around at playoffs. Tophat needs to play at least one southwest ECNL team to be ranked in the top 5 IMO.
 
SuperSoccerStar said:
Tophat tied Charolette 1-1 and then Blues smacked Charolette around at playoffs. Tophat needs to play at least one southwest ECNL team to be ranked in the top 5 IMO.
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Even if Top Hat played a SouthWest NL team, they’d still be top 5 in the rankings so long as they keep ducking top 20 ranked teams and continuing blowing out the lower end teams they’re playing.


I see that happen here in SoCal all the time with teams that routinely sand bag tournaments and artificially boost their ranking. I think the old saying goes winning changes everything and parents like trophies.
 
TeamDadJokes said:
We’re not debating visibility or college scouting. We’re debating the validity of the #2 in the country ranking having not played a top team to earn it.
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Give me a break...

The rankings are all about scouting and college placement. It bothers Socal people that a team they don't normally play is ranked higher then they are + there's nothing they can do about it.

Socal teams are used to clubs going to them to play vs the other way around.

Again, if the consensus is that a Socal team can beat TH then go out there and do it. Take TH's #2 spot in the nation away from them. But beware they're really good + you might get smacked around.
 
Carlsbad7 said:
Give me a break...

The rankings are all about scouting and college placement. It bothers Socal people that a team they don't normally play is ranked higher then they are + there's nothing they can do about it.

Socal teams are used to clubs going to them to play vs the other way around.

Again, if the consensus is that a Socal team can beat TH then go out there and do it. Take TH's #2 spot in the nation away from them. But beware they're really good + you might get smacked around.
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I guess we can agree to disagree. I think any top 5-10 California team would beat Top Hat. This notion of “getting smacked around” is delusional especially when they haven’t played anyone of merit.
 
TeamDadJokes said:
I guess we can agree to disagree. I think any top 5-10 California team would beat Top Hat. This notion of “getting smacked around” is delusional especially when they haven’t played anyone of merit.
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Fair enough, I've seen TH + most of the top Socal teams play (and MLVA).

TH is very good + plays like a mix of Surf (possession) and Blues (direct) + is able to switch between both styles depending on the opponent.

I'm 99% certain they would beat the G2010 Surf team that showed up at Surf Cup this year.
 
TeamDadJokes said:
I see that happen here in SoCal all the time with teams that routinely sand bag tournaments and artificially boost their ranking. I think the old saying goes winning changes everything and parents like trophies.
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You say you see that all the time - but you've never been able to provide a single example. In this case you believe TH 2010G ranking is inflated based on the teams they are seeing. OK - unless there is more head-to-head competition people can continue to believe their own perceptions and misperceptions to their heart's content - and nobody can ever prove them wrong. The flip side is it's just as hard to prove themselves right.

So which teams in SoCal (It apparently happens "all the time"), enjoy a high rating that they haven't "actually earned" since they are sand bagging tournaments?

Hint: in this case it will be pretty easy to disprove if an example is ever provided. You can just look in SR for the last 6-12 months of games, and clearly see which games were overperformed vs. the team's rating, and underperformed vs. the team rating. The more games that are way off of predictions, the more likely something is up with their performance vs. their actual capability. If there aren't many game like that - it's clear this would be a false accusation.
 
RandomSoccerFan said:
You say you see that all the time - but you've never been able to provide a single example. In this case you believe TH 2010G ranking is inflated based on the teams they are seeing. OK - unless there is more head-to-head competition people can continue to believe their own perceptions and misperceptions to their heart's content - and nobody can ever prove them wrong. The flip side is it's just as hard to prove themselves right.

So which teams in SoCal (It apparently happens "all the time"), enjoy a high rating that they haven't "actually earned" since they are sand bagging tournaments?

Hint: in this case it will be pretty easy to disprove if an example is ever provided. You can just look in SR for the last 6-12 months of games, and clearly see which games were overperformed vs. the team's rating, and underperformed vs. the team rating. The more games that are way off of predictions, the more likely something is up with their performance vs. their actual capability. If there aren't many game like that - it's clear this would be a false accusation.
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I’m not going to call out a team for sandbagging so I will not cite examples. I get it, you want the soccer rankings app to be 100%. I use them often but those who are familiar with the age group and know who showed up with their roster and who had help and who plays lower end brackets to get hardware. It’s always changing.

It’s ok for there to be some type of variance of accuracy in any application or algorithm, that’s normal. Scientist would agree, mathematicians and even physicians would say to be skeptical and challenge everything until it’s proven to be Law. This app isn’t Law. There’s going to be some faults, and that’s ok. When you say Top Hat is #2 in the country and the only team we can use to cross compare results is Charlotte SA ECNL who they tied 1-1 I don’t put them at #2 in the country. Maybe top 10, maybe top 20, but not #2. Sorry.
 
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