Surf Cup abuse

[GoldenGate]

Parents should do it. Do you actually want each set of parents to come up with their own rules for how much their kid can play?

I’m trying to imagine the coach reaction if 18 players came in with 18 different sets of restrictions for how much they can play.

Absolutely, to the extent every parent should figure out what the expectation will be on their kids and how the coach intends to handle substitutions over a tournament like that. I'm not saying each parent should say "My kid is only going to play X minutes per game, except for the finals when I want her to play all of them." It is solely the responsibility of the parent to figure out what they plan is for their daughter, and it is solely the responsibility of the parent to take action if they don't like the plan.

 

[dad4]

Your opinion on 5 games may depend on whether your kid plays 30 minutes or 70 per game.

If you have a 30 minute player, a two game day is still only one hour on the pitch. Even a five game weekend is only about 2.5 hours playing time.

The kids who play full games get more than that whenever there are two games in a weekend. For some kids, a five game weekend means almost six hours on the pitch. The risk of injury is a lot higher.

Honestly, a cap on minutes played per kid would be fine. The full game kids would finally get a rest, and the half game kids would get decent playing time.

 

[Grace T.]

Your opinion on 5 games may depend on whether your kid plays 30 minutes or 70 per game.

If you have a 30 minute player, a two game day is still only one hour on the pitch. Even a five game weekend is only about 2.5 hours playing time.

The kids who play full games get more than that whenever there are two games in a weekend. For some kids, a five game weekend means almost six hours on the pitch. The risk of injury is a lot higher.

Honestly, a cap on minutes played per kid would be fine. The full game kids would finally get a rest, and the half game kids would get decent playing time.

It wouldn’t be that hard to implement either because it can be built into the video equipment lots if teams are using. The issue though is that equipment is still confined to the richer clubs.

I like that the strategy it brings: do I use Billy’s minutes for ensuring we get out of the group stage or save him for the finals. I like that it pushes clubs to bring in people that are equally placed and not just bench warmers…it would cause greater volatility which is good for players

the downside is it favors the bigger clubs with a deeper bench in the major cities. Some smaller clubs or clubs in the outer ring (eg murrieta Bakersfield Santa Barbara) may not have the bench to compete or maybe even mount the minutes if the bench is thinned due to illness or injury.

 

[Happened again]

Your opinion on 5 games may depend on whether your kid plays 30 minutes or 70 per game.

If you have a 30 minute player, a two game day is still only one hour on the pitch. Even a five game weekend is only about 2.5 hours playing time.

The kids who play full games get more than that whenever there are two games in a weekend. For some kids, a five game weekend means almost six hours on the pitch. The risk of injury is a lot higher.

Honestly, a cap on minutes played per kid would be fine. The full game kids would finally get a rest, and the half game kids would get decent playing time.

In the big picture, most overuse injuries can be prevented. 5 games at tournmanents is certainly an issue. What is missed by most clubs, parents, and the athletes themselves is the importance of an offseason.

There really isn't an offseason, especially when ECNL/GA take athletes deep into the summer, then clubs bring you back early AUG. The few days/weeks inbetween, the kids feel the pressure to "make gains" during the offseason.. very cliche really. The true gains are a result of rest/recovery. I see way too many kids trying to improve their yo yo test, 2mile time, strength, etc within the time season ends and when club season begins. 100% blame on the process...didn't surf cup just end? There is a cottage industry of Physical Therapy practices and youth sports..

Their is pride in being on the grind. There should be an established off season but the quest for the $$$ doesn't stop. Plenty of $$ to be made around youth sports...

 

[Grace T.]

In the big picture, most overuse injuries can be prevented. 5 games at tournmanents is certainly an issue. What is missed by most clubs, parents, and the athletes themselves is the importance of an offseason.

There really isn't an offseason, especially when ECNL/GA take athletes deep into the summer, then clubs bring you back early AUG. The few days/weeks inbetween, the kids feel the pressure to "make gains" during the offseason.. very cliche really. The true gains are a result of rest/recovery. I see way too many kids trying to improve their yo yo test, 2mile time, strength, etc within the time season ends and when club season begins. 100% blame on the process...didn't surf cup just end? There is a cottage industry of Physical Therapy practices and youth sports..

Their is pride in being on the grind. There should be an established off season but the quest for the $$$ doesn't stop. Plenty of $$ to be made around youth sports...

While $ certainly does play a role in it (coaches would have to forego training fees), at the higher levels that's not what's driving it. The younger & lower level flight 3/bronze teams, for example, usually do get some time off because people are on vacation (soccer not being as much of a priority) and they can't make roster at certain times of year. The main issue is that Americans for developing pro players actually DON'T have enough training time relative to European academies (which in Europe is multiple games on the weekend, 4-5 days of training for 3-5 hours depending on the country and age of the players). The MLS academies have moved in this direction, which causes the MLS Next teams to have to up their training to compete. But because school is a priority too for American players (it's not as much in Europe because you have to pick between either an academic or athletic track), there's a certain limit to the number of hours in the day they can do it, which causes the season to be spread out. It then trickles down EA/EA2, NPL, Elite 64/Flight 1 etc. And if the season is extended you need some time for tournaments (which parents demand and which do serve a training and testing purpose), tryouts, and to onboard new or promoted players (which at the higher levels now takes place in summer since the season kicks off right away in fall). Europe by contrast goes dark in the mid part of the summer but they do a lot more during the season and school just takes a back seat for academy level players (everyone else plays rec and in the summer everyone is off).

As long as we have the college system that we have and recruited athletics, there's not a whole lot that can be done to fix it. It's either top down or down up. Either parents can say no and those that want can opt out and play lower flights, or it has to be imposed top down (but that would require fixing things like the MLS/ECNL GA/ECNL split, carding everyone in the same program, establishing recruitment and signing windows, establishing a fixed tournament season). Otherwise, you'll just get people splitting off and forming another league (like Elite 64) because they don't like the way things are being done.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

As I said, that's a fair critique, but really all you are complaining about is the additional 5th game as 4 is fairly standard for winning teams at tournaments (or perhaps the entire tournament system....but that's a conversation for another day). I wouldn't have characterized it as "abuse" except to the extent the entire system is abusive. There is a simple remedy: don't go. You are of course free to critique other parent's parenting choices (but we know how that usually goes) and to rail against the system (hey I'm right there with you), but it is the system we got and that's not going to change until you fix college recruitment).

We'll never know, but I'd be interested in how many girls got to play at a college they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to attend because they played that 4th or 5th game (or, even 3rd game) versus how many of them ended up with an injury that kept them out for a significant time because of those games.

To @dad4's point, how does a coach manage 18 different "playing time restrictions"? We did a bit of it as our daughter is passionate about soccer and would play any game as long as they kept score. My suggestion is that if you want to manage it, be proactive. Look at the proposed schedule before the year and talk to the coach if you have concerns as far in advance as possible. My daughter's coaches were very understanding. We decided that ECNL games and playoffs were too important for the team to worry about managing time, but for anything that wasn't ECNL, we considered managing playing time. I can tell you that if you go through girls' youth soccer until they age out, you'll start to see them get injured at an alarming rate.

 

[crush]

We'll never know, but I'd be interested in how many girls got to play at a college they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to attend because they played that 4th or 5th game (or, even 3rd game) versus how many of them ended up with an injury that kept them out for a significant time because of those games.

To @dad4's point, how does a coach manage 18 different "playing time restrictions"? We did a bit of it as our daughter is passionate about soccer and would play any game as long as they kept score. My suggestion is that if you want to manage it, be proactive. Look at the proposed schedule before the year and talk to the coach if you have concerns as far in advance as possible. My daughter's coaches were very understanding. We decided that ECNL games and playoffs were too important for the team to worry about managing time, but for anything that wasn't ECNL, we considered managing playing time. I can tell you that if you go through girls' youth soccer until they age out, you'll start to see them get injured at an alarming rate.

What a nice and understanding coach your dd has. I have never met one like that in the great socal area. I just heard of another ACL tear by the way.

Parent: Hey coach, here is the schedule of minutes and games for my dd this weekend

Coach: Ahh thanks dad, I super appreciate you and how much you care about your player. Let me get the other 17 schedules from the other parents and I will make it all happened. Safety first is my motto

The only player I knew who did the schedule on demand was one of the #1 players in our country and her dad was a beast and protected his dd and the coach obeyed and was just happy when she was available. Peace bruh

 

[Sike]

Can someone share the studies that provide guidance on how much is too much when it comes to youth soccer training/games? Generally curious about any guidelines, as well as if recovery days after too many minutes at an event like Surf can help or not.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Can someone share the studies that provide guidance on how much is too much when it comes to youth soccer training/games? Generally curious about any guidelines, as well as if recovery days after too many minutes at an event like Surf can help or not.

Here's something I found - but I don't see corresponding studies. Assuming this is based on real data, it gives useful information - injuries are more likely in games than in training, overuse injuries are most common, and a bit of guidance on rest. Unfortunately, it's not very specific and doesn't reference studies.

Soccer-Related Injuries in Kids are Rising – What Can Parents Do?

Many high school soccer injuries occur during illegal plays in games. Start enforcing the rules of fair play at an early age, as well as proper, age-appropriate heading techniques to reduce risk of concussion and other injuries. More tips here.

www.healthychildren.org

Another thing to be aware of in injury prevention is getting enough sleep.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263971781_Chronic_Lack_of_Sleep_is_Associated_With_Increased_Sports_Injuries_in_Adolescent_Athletes

 

[crush]

Here's something I found - but I don't see corresponding studies. Assuming this is based on real data, it gives useful information - injuries are more likely in games than in training, overuse injuries are most common, and a bit of guidance on rest. Unfortunately, it's not very specific and doesn't reference studies.

Soccer-Related Injuries in Kids are Rising – What Can Parents Do?

Many high school soccer injuries occur during illegal plays in games. Start enforcing the rules of fair play at an early age, as well as proper, age-appropriate heading techniques to reduce risk of concussion and other injuries. More tips here.

www.healthychildren.org

Another thing to be aware of in injury prevention is getting enough sleep.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263971781_Chronic_Lack_of_Sleep_is_Associated_With_Increased_Sports_Injuries_in_Adolescent_Athletes

100% on the sleep part K&S. Trying to be the best of best in college and having to study and then practice is not easy for those who demand excellence in all area's of life. My dd watched one of her former teammates cry on tic tok for being so stressed out and the #1 issues was lack of sleep. Road games and mid terms with zero mercy from Professor Asshat. We all know what a true Unicorn is and only those players are welcomed at Big U. I honestly hope and pray for the wellbeing of all the players who risk it all to play the great game. Besides all the physical injures that happen in soccer for over use, the mental agony put on these girls is insane as well and it's horrible twofer, MOO!!!

 

[Happened again]

Can someone share the studies that provide guidance on how much is too much when it comes to youth soccer training/games? Generally curious about any guidelines, as well as if recovery days after too many minutes at an event like Surf can help or not.

Generalized studies are hard to come by because of the wide range of injuries. Studies usually focus on specifics. With youth sports, the issue is diagnoses, when to determine soreness VS injury. Kids, especially the high performing ones, tend to want to hide injuries.

A good rule of thumb is to determine soreness vs an injury. Soreness has a much shorter duration, generally 1-3 days. If pain lingers beyond 3 days, it's usually a good idea to rest and see your pediatrician, or if you have a sports ortho handy, see them. Soreness tends to cover larger areas of your body, pain tends to localize in joints and muscles. Think of a dead leg vs general leg muscle soreness.

There isn't a specific guidline for kids, they are so different. As they get older, >12, treatments are alwaysa good idea: massage, stretching, core, chiro, ice bath, massage guns, etc. Can get pricy to maintain an energetic and high performing athlete. Besides, they think they are bullet proof until they are not.

 

[crush]

Generalized studies are hard to come by because of the wide range of injuries. Studies usually focus on specifics. With youth sports, the issue is diagnoses, when to determine soreness VS injury. Kids, especially the high performing ones, tend to want to hide injuries.

A good rule of thumb is to determine soreness vs an injury. Soreness has a much shorter duration, generally 1-3 days. If pain lingers beyond 3 days, it's usually a good idea to rest and see your pediatrician, or if you have a sports ortho handy, see them. Soreness tends to cover larger areas of your body, pain tends to localize in joints and muscles. Think of a dead leg vs general leg muscle soreness.

There isn't a specific guidline for kids, they are so different. As they get older, >12, treatments are alwaysa good idea: massage, stretching, core, chiro, ice bath, massage guns, etc. Can get pricy to maintain an energetic and high performing athlete. Besides, they think they are bullet proof until they are not.

My dd best coach overall told his players, "It's up to you to tell me how your doing." Let be honest today. The parents are addicted with watching their player play. Crush got a rush when my little one ran around and played her little heart out. The player has to stand up to dad and the coach and tell them both, "My head hurts and my knee is tight. I can't and will not go back to back. Sorry, but it's my body and my choice."

 

[OrangeCountyDad]

bottom line is overuse injuries have increased x10 in youth sports since 2000. The amount of kids having ACL injuries is soaring, especially amongst girls.

Lot of anecdotal evidence points to artificial turf as a contributor (not saying it's one or the other, I'm sure they negatively compliment each other). I wish someone would do a study on injuries playing on turf vs grass. Feels like over the last 10-15 years many fields have been converted to turf.
And I get why we have turf fields particularly at schools and community facilities. Maybe there is a study and I couldn't find it?

 

[espola]

Lot of anecdotal evidence points to artificial turf as a contributor (not saying it's one or the other, I'm sure they negatively compliment each other). I wish someone would do a study on injuries playing on turf vs grass. Feels like over the last 10-15 years many fields have been converted to turf.
And I get why we have turf fields particularly at schools and community facilities. Maybe there is a study and I couldn't find it?

The NFLPA, having a vested interest in this, took some stats --

"Based on NFL injury data collected from 2012 to 2018, not only was the contact injury rate for lower extremities higher during practices and games held on artificial turf, NFL players consistently experienced a much higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries on turf compared to natural surfaces. Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass."

Only Natural Grass Can Level The NFL’s Playing Field

nflpa.com

 

[OrangeCountyDad]

Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass."

wow, those are big numbers.
More slippery turf? less grippy cleats? I know there are TF, SG, FG cleats- but most of us can't afford 2 or 3 sets of boots every/every-other year. thank you.

 

[watfly]

wow, those are big numbers.
More slippery turf? less grippy cleats? I know there are TF, SG, FG cleats- but most of us can't afford 2 or 3 sets of boots every/every-other year. thank you.

My totally unproven theory is that its the lack of available round studded shoes (not talking about the indoor turf shoes) and the popularity of the "cool" cleats which are mostly bladed, I think in large part to save weight. But again this is just speculation.

 

[dad4]

wow, those are big numbers.
More slippery turf? less grippy cleats? I know there are TF, SG, FG cleats- but most of us can't afford 2 or 3 sets of boots every/every-other year. thank you.

Take a look at prices for PT. You're talking over $100 per visit.

The boots are the cheaper way to go.

 

[MacDre]

The NFLPA, having a vested interest in this, took some stats --

"Based on NFL injury data collected from 2012 to 2018, not only was the contact injury rate for lower extremities higher during practices and games held on artificial turf, NFL players consistently experienced a much higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries on turf compared to natural surfaces. Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass."

Only Natural Grass Can Level The NFL’s Playing Field

nflpa.com

What about this…

Soccer players’ cancers ignite debate over turf safety | CNN

After a list of soccer players with cancer prompted an investigation, the state found nothing unusual – but one coach still thinks the cancer might be linked to artificial turf.

amp.cnn.com

 

[espola]

What about this…

Soccer players’ cancers ignite debate over turf safety | CNN

After a list of soccer players with cancer prompted an investigation, the state found nothing unusual – but one coach still thinks the cancer might be linked to artificial turf.

amp.cnn.com

"The results showed that the cancer rate among soccer players in the investigation, based on Griffin's list, was actually less than expected compared with the cancer rate among all Washington residents of similar ages."

 

[dad4]

"The results showed that the cancer rate among soccer players in the investigation, based on Griffin's list, was actually less than expected compared with the cancer rate among all Washington residents of similar ages."

If you want to isolate the effect of turf, it seems you would want to compare soccer players who practice on grass to soccer players who practice on turf.

Otherwise, you are partly measuring whether exercise is protective against cancer.

 

[espola]

If you want to isolate the effect of turf, it seems you would want to compare soccer players who practice on grass to soccer players who practice on turf.

Otherwise, you are partly measuring whether exercise is protective against cancer.

That was part of the analysis.

Is it safe for my kids to play on synthetic fields made with crumb rubber?
Based on what we know today, the Washington State Department of Health recommends that people who enjoy soccer continue to play regardless of the type of field surface. Our recommendation is based on our investigation and the available research on crumb rubber which currently does not suggest it poses a significant public health risk. Assurances of the safety of artificial turf with crumb rubber are limited by the lack of adequate information on potential toxicity and exposure.

Synthetic Turf and Crumb Rubber

Investigation of Reported Cancer Among Soccer Players in Washington State In 2009, the University of Washington Women's Associate Head Soccer Coach, Amy Griffin, became concerned that several soccer goalies had developed blood cancers at around the same time. By 2014, the coach had compiled a...

doh.wa.gov