Vaccine

[Grace T.]

Intelligence is reasonably defined as the ability to change behavior in the face of new evidence.

Changing your own behavior is just part of being a thinking creature. You should be able to manage it without someone passing a law and threatening you with jail time.

There's no new evidence here, at least as far as masks goes. There's hardly any evidence at all (except a really flawed Bangladesh study that seems to indicate intervention is necessary, and no effect for the under 50 and cloth masks), quite a bit (almost all pre-COVID) against, and a lot of real world data showing it doesn't make much of difference. That means you are basically taking it on faith that the experts (who have gotten so much wrong during the pandemic) are basically right about this. That's religion dude, not science.

And history shows us that preaching doesn't do very much to change opinions when it comes to matters of faith. Most major faith changes have come at the point of a sword or barrel of a gun.

 

[Grace T.]

Intelligence is reasonably defined as the ability to change behavior in the face of new evidence.

Changing your own behavior is just part of being a thinking creature. You should be able to manage it without someone passing a law and threatening you with jail time.

p.s. still really curious...would you mandate the flu shot ever? Bad flu season for example or even just in general or even just in kids?

 

[espola]

Good news, bad news here. The Pfizer pill works remarkably well even against the omicron. The problem is that there's not going to be enough of it to go around. There's also not a lot that we can do to triage this thing....you can't give it just to the extremely ill because by then it's too late....they'll probably wind up having to ration it to the elderly. Which means unless someone can figure out a way to increase 10m doses, (I'm not holding my breath....if anything the pandemic has illustrated the incompetence of everything), it's not the silver bullet we hoped.

Pfizer’s Covid Pill Works Well, Company Confirms in Final Analysis (Published 2021)

The treatment, called Paxlovid, is likely to work against Omicron and could be available in the United States before the end of the year.

www.nytimes.com

What leads you to think of rationing?

 

[Grace T.]

What leads you to think of rationing?

What do you mean? I'm having a hard time seeing where you are confused.

 

[dad4]

The red states don't care. They'll have some labor problems caused by kids having to be out of school and businesses too sick to shut down. The damage in the south might be limited by seasonality (south africa, which is out of season, may already be in decline based on early results from hard hit provinces). They are treating it like a bad cold.

The blue states are in for a world of hurt though, and that's the protocols doing that (school/work), not just the virus.

Of course the red states won’t care. They didn’t care last time until they found out they can’t hire enough travel nurses. This time, I doubt they will do much unless they run out of oxygen. Four weeks later, it will be over and they will go back to not caring.

Don’t buy in too deeply into the SA comparison. Young, thin, and summer are not likely to be a good predictor for old, fat, and winter. Wait for the UK reports. They’ll be here soon enough.

 

[watfly]

Do mask mandates work?

For certain people it makes them feel more comfortable when they're out in public. So yes they work!

 

[dad4]

p.s. still really curious...would you mandate the flu shot ever? Bad flu season for example or even just in general or even just in kids?

A 1918 event is enough for me to support flu vaccine passports. I don’t count that as a mandate, because each person can choose simply to avoid high risk places.

 

[Grace T.]

Bit of a semi-crazy rant that makes an interesting point. COVID protocols did not necessarily come to being because of the science behind them, but because of a human psychological trait against contamination. We've seen it before in anti-GMO hysteria, the AIDS crisis (Magic Johnson and the Princess Diana hug), anti-gay hysteria, racial discrimination, treatment of the handicapped, and even kids games of cooties. Interesting point, if said somewhat unhinged.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470971630994219013

 

[Grace T.]

A 1918 event is enough for me to support flu vaccine passports. I don’t count that as a mandate, because each person can choose simply to avoid high risk places.

Kid's can't....they have to go to school....so you are going to say then we should mandate flu vaccines for kids in school (on the grounds we mandate them other stuff) or are you going to say "they can just homeschool" or some combination of both?

 

[dad4]

There's no new evidence here, at least as far as masks goes. There's hardly any evidence at all (except a really flawed Bangladesh study that seems to indicate intervention is necessary, and no effect for the under 50 and cloth masks), quite a bit (almost all pre-COVID) against, and a lot of real world data showing it doesn't make much of difference. That means you are basically taking it on faith that the experts (who have gotten so much wrong during the pandemic) are basically right about this. That's religion dude, not science.

And history shows us that preaching doesn't do very much to change opinions when it comes to matters of faith. Most major faith changes have come at the point of a sword or barrel of a gun.

Yet most epidemiologists think they work. Funny that.

So, maybe the vast majority of scientists have no clue what they are talking about within their own discipline.

Or maybe one humanities major is having trouble understanding research papers which build on science classes she never took.

I‘m going with option 2.

 

[crush]

I understand your points, but your explanation is Exhibit A as to why they shouldn't be mandated. Hoping they will work is not a compelling reason to mandate them. We were explicitly told that they would eliminate the need to wear masks and along with being told that breakthrough infections would be rare. If you are saying I should have known better, then the government should as well and they knowingly misrepresented the truth to coerce people to get the vaccine.

I didn't get the vaccine for the sole reason that I wouldn't have to wear a mask, I did it as one measure of personal protection. However, many others felt duped and are legitimately questioning whether they need a booster if they still have to wear a mask, particularly if their healthy and have no other health conditions. Like a mentioned before it comes down to credibility. Your saying to some extent that we should know better than to trust our government. I certainly think we should be skeptical of our government.

You're a good man Wat Fly. I got on you early on only because I actually care about you. You slapped me around when I was going through my call for help and I needed a few rebukes and smack backs. Thanks btw . All my true friends got jabbed bro. I swear. They did it because they trusted and they wanted to go back to normal. Normal is no more and trust is hard to find these days in some people. You get what you think now bro. Whatever you want to create for yourself and your little clan or tribe ((as long as its goodly and Godly)). I wish you and I and Baldref could meet up for a pop over by Mount Helix some day. My son is kicking ass over at State btw. Super proud of him. These kids have had it hard the last few years. My pal is not happy because he did three shots already for the team and now he's sick again. I swear dude has been sick three times in last 9 months. This time he's been out for a few days. Me? A little sniffle and a little cough ((I stayed home for two days because I didnt want dad types to get all freaked out from my cough)) in last 24 months. That is it. I 100% give my wife credit and my Lord & Savior Yeshua for not falling ill like others I know that got jabbed or were living unhealthy life style. Booze is not good right now. Whatever is going on, it's not good. We all want what is right and those WHO do wrong will continue to want to do wrong. The people I know truly WHO are getting sick all those who have health issues and or obesity and also got jabbed. I love Texas but man, I saw way too many obese folks and the kids too. Not all but you all know what I'm talking about. I had some of my wife side of her family wonder how and why I got so thin. I told them my secret and about no meat and it was not well received......They love their steak and I get that. They asked how I did and i told them the truth. To each his own too. They all looked at me like I was a weirdo from CA....lol. I love them all and they love me and we love

 

[Desert Hound]

A more effective vaccine allows an individual to be protected even if his neighbors are not. A man who is 100% protected has no reason to worry about his neighbor’s vaccine status. No reason for a mandate in that case.

This is going to throw you for a loop dad. It takes one of your big crutches away from you.

From the CDC.

The newly released report showing that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.

The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people, the CDC said Friday.

With that in mind....that takes the last shreds of the logic of the vax mandate. The vaxxed can still be super spreaders. The vaxxed spread at the same rate as the unvaxxed. It also removes your thought that IF the unvaxxed just got vaxxed this would all be over.

Now that does not negate the fact that as of now, getting vaxxed will help those at high risk of being hospitalized and/or getting very sick.

"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus," CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement. "

CDC report shows vaccinated people can spread COVID-19 - Roll Call

A newly released Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report shows that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders.

www.rollcall.com

 

[Grace T.]

Yet most epidemiologists think they work. Funny that.

So, maybe the vast majority of scientists have no clue what they are talking about within their own discipline.

Or maybe one humanities major is having trouble understanding research papers which build on science classes she never took.

I‘m going with option 2.

Don't you hear yourself? Your entire argument is the experts (who have only 1 really deeply flawed study to go on which doesn't even show what you think it shows at a minimum with respect to cloth masks) should be trusted because they know better (and despite having beclowned themselves throughout this).

You have faith in them. This is a faith based argument. You are never going to convince people who don't believe in your faith (particularly after the prophet's failure to turn his water into wine). What you are left with, like the religions of old, is force.

 

[espola]

What do you mean? I'm having a hard time seeing where you are confused.

Paywall kept me out of the NYT article, so I read several other sources. None mentioned supply problems. One article said the Feds already have purchased 10 million courses of treatment (by which I assume they mean multiple-pill doses); Pfizer says they will have plenty.

"Pfizer has said it expects to manufacture 180,000 treatment courses by the end of next month and at least 50 million courses by the end of 2022."

U.S. to buy 10 mln courses of Pfizer's COVID-19 pill for $5.3 bln

Pfizer Inc said on Thursday the U.S. government would pay $5.29 billion for 10 million courses of its experimental COVID-19 antiviral drug, as the country rushes to secure promising oral treatments for the disease.

www.reuters.com

 

[watfly]

This is going to throw you for a loop dad. It takes one of your big crutches away from you.

From the CDC.

The newly released report showing that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.

The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people, the CDC said Friday.

With that in mind....that takes the last shreds of the logic of the vax mandate. The vaxxed can still be super spreaders. The vaxxed spread at the same rate as the unvaxxed. It also removes your thought that IF the unvaxxed just got vaxxed this would all be over.

Now that does not negate the fact that as of now, getting vaxxed will help those at high risk of being hospitalized and/or getting very sick.

"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus," CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement. "

CDC report shows vaccinated people can spread COVID-19 - Roll Call

A newly released Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report shows that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders.

www.rollcall.com

This has been obvious for a while but Governors needed cover for their recent mask mandates so "poof" there it is. Get ready for Omicron booster mandates.

 

[crush]

Don't you hear yourself? Your entire argument is the experts (who have only 1 really deeply flawed study to go on which doesn't even show what you think it shows at a minimum with respect to cloth masks) should be trusted because they know better (and despite having beclowned themselves throughout this).

You have faith in them. This is a faith based argument. You are never going to convince people who don't believe in your faith (particularly after the prophet's failure to turn his water into wine). What you are left with, like the religions of old, is force.

 

[Grace T.]

Paywall kept me out of the NYT article, so I read several other sources. None mentioned supply problems. One article said the Feds already have purchased 10 million courses of treatment (by which I assume they mean multiple-pill doses); Pfizer says they will have plenty.

"Pfizer has said it expects to manufacture 180,000 treatment courses by the end of next month and at least 50 million courses by the end of 2022."

U.S. to buy 10 mln courses of Pfizer's COVID-19 pill for $5.3 bln

Pfizer Inc said on Thursday the U.S. government would pay $5.29 billion for 10 million courses of its experimental COVID-19 antiviral drug, as the country rushes to secure promising oral treatments for the disease.

www.reuters.com

The 50 million is on a worldwide basis. You don't think they would be all going to the US?

p.s. Matt Yglesias and some on the left are floating the idea of the US seizing the patent from Pfizer (presumably for a price) and freeing it to the world.

 

[dad4]

Kid's can't....they have to go to school....so you are going to say then we should mandate flu vaccines for kids in school (on the grounds we mandate them other stuff) or are you going to say "they can just homeschool" or some combination of both?

If we have a flu that is as dangerous to kids as the 1918 flu? I would absolutely support a flu shot mandate for schools.

Did you think 1918/1919 was just an ordinary bad flu year? It killed three times as many people as World War 1.

 

[whatithink]

I understand your points, but your explanation is Exhibit A as to why they shouldn't be mandated. Hoping they will work is not a compelling reason to mandate them. We were explicitly told that they would eliminate the need to wear masks and along with being told that breakthrough infections would be rare. If you are saying I should have known better, then the government should as well and they knowingly misrepresented the truth to coerce people to get the vaccine.

I didn't get the vaccine for the sole reason that I wouldn't have to wear a mask, I did it as one measure of personal protection. However, many others felt duped and are legitimately questioning whether they need a booster if they still have to wear a mask, particularly if their healthy and have no other health conditions. Like a mentioned before it comes down to credibility. Your saying to some extent that we should know better than to trust our government. I certainly think we should be skeptical of our government.

I have a healthy, I would say, distrust of government, mainly because its led by politicians and I have zero real trust for any politician. I trust the medical profession far more and have several doctor friends and in-laws and listen to them far more than any advice from government.

I also got vaccinated for personal protection. I dislike masks, and prefer not to wear one, but will if needed.

With respects to being healthy etc. - from my personal experience; my 83 year old mother got Covid pre-vaccine and it was touch and go. She was/is healthy, but old. An 8 day hospital stay and a couple of months at home and she was good again. She is vaccined up now. My 14 year old niece also got Covid. It was mild and she seemed to recover quickly. She was a multi sport athlete ... was, because she now has long Covid, can only make school for 3 days a week before she is exhausted (sleeping 20 hours per day for a couple of days, to recover) and all sports are out. We don't know when she will recover.

IMO, everyone should treat the virus with "respect". It doesn't care if you are healthy or not, or if you don't know you are not ... just look at Erickson & Aguero - professional soccer players both with pre-existing heart conditions that they didn't know about despite how many medicals over their careers.

 

[espola]

The 50 million is on a worldwide basis. You don't think they would be all going to the US?

p.s. Matt Yglesias and some on the left are floating the idea of the US seizing the patent from Pfizer (presumably for a price) and freeing it to the world.

The current new hospitalization rate is about 7,000/day in the US.