ECNL vs. DA turf war has created a 'toxic environment'

[Mullet]

I am not arguing with your numbers, they are in the wheelhouse. And I agree that most WNT players come from a small number of college programs. You also have to realize that those leagues also are top heavy and don't nearly have the quality of teams top to bottom that are near the top of D1. Maybe with more money they will get better but as has already been proven on the men's side of UEFA, the top teams have many players from Africa, South America and beyond and aren't simply composed of homegrown talent.

I love the debate and look forward to your reply.

The league growth is really just starting to take off in Europe. While we have had some false starts with our own women's league over the same time frame, unlike Europe we had the college game. Europe truly relies on a professional academy model. Without professional leagues there really is nothing comparable in Europe to our collegiate system, a system that is well over 30 years old and still growing. European women have had nowhere to play until just a decade ago if they didn't come to our colleges.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/socc...p-soccer-worldwide-growth-20190603-story.html

And if numbers are low at the youth level clubs like Barcelona are doing this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/sports/barcelona-girls-soccer-womens-world-cup.html

My kid plays up a couple of years and also plays with boys and I've had to fight hard with club coaches to utilize all the possible opportunities while they are available. That I HAVE to struggle to find coaches who are progressive enough is another problem we have.

That side bar aside, in regards to the leagues being top heavy in Europe many of the leagues have promotion relegation, which obviously means 2nd tier leagues. Those second tier leagues we can consider our D1 mid majors. But as the girls youth system continues to grow in numbers the European model should be able to easily match our collegiate system with more upside to surpass it in the coming years. And on top of it, our colleges sit here with open arms for many of the European women who simply don't make their own pro academies.

And culturally, I think the women's game is different here in the U.S. than the men's side. I expect our player pool to stay very, very large and very talented which will always keep us in the mix but to stay dominant the NWSL needs to be twice its current size and more women need to go directly and skip college. The problem is kids can't afford to go pro here for what NWSL amounts to be just a summer league. Many players go to Australia when NWSL ends just to keep the checks coming.

 

[Mullet]

US Soccer would advise the clubs to be a true academy moving players up and down within their individual for development instead of straight out recruiting which is what a number clubs (not just DA but ...) do. With that said loyalty would need be given by the parent as well and we know that many parents are well intended but club hop like the Easter Bunny.

Telling parents where to put their kids is always a tough thing to do. There are lots of VALID reasons kids change clubs and to your point there are lots of hoppers too. But that doesn't need to be US Soccer's concern either. If they are tracking 40 kids in a metro area per age group they need to have more direct conversations with those parents about where might be best fit club wise and so forth.

If US Soccer is tracking the kids they should be actively working with the clubs and the kids and possibly have the authority to recommend a logistically feasible club change. This would be pie in the sky. But at the very least US Soccer should be striving to get those 25-40 kids together on one field on a regular basis. Essentially as I said, the ODP kind of runs things.

 

[dk_b]

And culturally, I think the women's game is different here in the U.S. than the men's side. I expect our player pool to stay very, very large and very talented which will always keep us in the mix but to stay dominant the NWSL needs to be twice its current size and more women need to go directly and skip college. The problem is kids can't afford to go pro here for what NWSL amounts to be just a summer league. Many players go to Australia when NWSL ends just to keep the checks coming.

I think this is the real key regarding whether or not the European clubs will outpace the US (with its youth structure + college). Culturally, the women's game is not just different compared to the men's side, culturally the women's sporting landscape in the US is very different than in other countries. Our participation rates in all team sports - boys and girls - are way higher. When I studied abroad, I played on futsal team. The guys were athletic enough, had better footskills than I did (a non-soccer player but I played a lot of baseball and football and lacrosse so I could play in goal), but very few of them played organized sports growing up - one played team handball, one was a runner and one played tennis, many skied and played tennis recreationally. Compared to their female peers? They were total sportsmen. I expect that the landscape has changed some over the years but from talking to my friends in Europe and looking at the level of participation in team sports of their kids, there really is no comparison. So, the boom that Europe will experience may occur but whether they have the sheer volume of players to produce elite soccer players remains to be seen (this is akin to the points @MakeAPlay has made re the number of players in the 18-32 range).

There is a larger philosophical issue as well - and my perspective may differ than those on this board (it does with many on the NorCal equivalent when similar points were discussed years ago). If you measure "soccer success" at WC titles playing soccer "the right way", all of this matters. But if you measure success on participation rates - not just at the youth level but through college, in pick-up, in old men and old women leagues, etc.) - fitness, love of the sport, an ability for some kids to turn sport into education, exposure to different kids and different communities, opportunity to travel (domestically and internationally), etc., we continue and will continue to do things right. Thank you, Title IX, for that and for the effect of it becoming totally normalized for a girl to be juggling a soccer ball on her own or when my younger kids ask to be taken to the field to meet friends to kick the ball around. I believe that remains unique in other countries, even countries whose national teams have made significant gains.

Can La Masia produce elite players better than we do? Maybe. But what happens to the ones who don't make it all the way? Will there be other avenues for those who have given up everything for that academy model? Stated another way - how many of La Masia's players who were 15 when Messi was do we actually know about? How many have made a living in soccer? And how deep a fraction do we take w/r/t girls/women since it is a HUGE leap to think that community-based 3d and 4th division women's teams will have the following like the equivalent men's teams?

 

[VegasParent]

US Soccer would advise the clubs to be a true academy moving players up and down within their individual for development instead of straight out recruiting which is what a number clubs (not just DA but ...) do. With that said loyalty would need be given by the parent as well and we know that many parents are well intended but club hop like the Easter Bunny.

So do coaches.

 

[Mullet]

I think this is the real key regarding whether or not the European clubs will outpace the US (with its youth structure + college). Culturally, the women's game is not just different compared to the men's side, culturally the women's sporting landscape in the US is very different than in other countries. Our participation rates in all team sports - boys and girls - are way higher. When I studied abroad, I played on futsal team. The guys were athletic enough, had better footskills than I did (a non-soccer player but I played a lot of baseball and football and lacrosse so I could play in goal), but very few of them played organized sports growing up - one played team handball, one was a runner and one played tennis, many skied and played tennis recreationally. Compared to their female peers? They were total sportsmen. I expect that the landscape has changed some over the years but from talking to my friends in Europe and looking at the level of participation in team sports of their kids, there really is no comparison. So, the boom that Europe will experience may occur but whether they have the sheer volume of players to produce elite soccer players remains to be seen (this is akin to the points @MakeAPlay has made re the number of players in the 18-32 range).

There is a larger philosophical issue as well - and my perspective may differ than those on this board (it does with many on the NorCal equivalent when similar points were discussed years ago). If you measure "soccer success" at WC titles playing soccer "the right way", all of this matters. But if you measure success on participation rates - not just at the youth level but through college, in pick-up, in old men and old women leagues, etc.) - fitness, love of the sport, an ability for some kids to turn sport into education, exposure to different kids and different communities, opportunity to travel (domestically and internationally), etc., we continue and will continue to do things right. Thank you, Title IX, for that and for the effect of it becoming totally normalized for a girl to be juggling a soccer ball on her own or when my younger kids ask to be taken to the field to meet friends to kick the ball around. I believe that remains unique in other countries, even countries whose national teams have made significant gains.

Can La Masia produce elite players better than we do? Maybe. But what happens to the ones who don't make it all the way? Will there be other avenues for those who have given up everything for that academy model? Stated another way - how many of La Masia's players who were 15 when Messi was do we actually know about? How many have made a living in soccer? And how deep a fraction do we take w/r/t girls/women since it is a HUGE leap to think that community-based 3d and 4th division women's teams will have the following like the equivalent men's teams?

The main body of your post is pretty solid so I won’t really address it here. I will instead tackle your last main point regarding La Masia and the kids that don’t make it through.

There are only 25 spots for a national team anyways. Is washing out of La Masia really any different than the 98% of our kids that don’t play in college? Is quitting a mid major D1 soccer program after the sophomore year really MORE beneficial to our women’s game?

The young lady who washes out at La Masia can still go to other clubs if they want AND it is economically feasible. It’s not like there is a way for our college players to really stay in the game past college. We really only have room for about 225, 25 of which are USWNT players, to continue to play and develop past college. With 15 leagues in Europe there are lots of places “La Masia washouts” can keep playing and developing if they wish to do so.

The only thing we have to offer our late bloomers, ironically, is Europe.

 

[whatithink]

I think this is the real key regarding whether or not the European clubs will outpace the US (with its youth structure + college). Culturally, the women's game is not just different compared to the men's side, culturally the women's sporting landscape in the US is very different than in other countries. Our participation rates in all team sports - boys and girls - are way higher. When I studied abroad, I played on futsal team. The guys were athletic enough, had better footskills than I did (a non-soccer player but I played a lot of baseball and football and lacrosse so I could play in goal), but very few of them played organized sports growing up - one played team handball, one was a runner and one played tennis, many skied and played tennis recreationally. Compared to their female peers? They were total sportsmen. I expect that the landscape has changed some over the years but from talking to my friends in Europe and looking at the level of participation in team sports of their kids, there really is no comparison. So, the boom that Europe will experience may occur but whether they have the sheer volume of players to produce elite soccer players remains to be seen (this is akin to the points @MakeAPlay has made re the number of players in the 18-32 range).

There is a larger philosophical issue as well - and my perspective may differ than those on this board (it does with many on the NorCal equivalent when similar points were discussed years ago). If you measure "soccer success" at WC titles playing soccer "the right way", all of this matters. But if you measure success on participation rates - not just at the youth level but through college, in pick-up, in old men and old women leagues, etc.) - fitness, love of the sport, an ability for some kids to turn sport into education, exposure to different kids and different communities, opportunity to travel (domestically and internationally), etc., we continue and will continue to do things right. Thank you, Title IX, for that and for the effect of it becoming totally normalized for a girl to be juggling a soccer ball on her own or when my younger kids ask to be taken to the field to meet friends to kick the ball around. I believe that remains unique in other countries, even countries whose national teams have made significant gains.

Can La Masia produce elite players better than we do? Maybe. But what happens to the ones who don't make it all the way? Will there be other avenues for those who have given up everything for that academy model? Stated another way - how many of La Masia's players who were 15 when Messi was do we actually know about? How many have made a living in soccer? And how deep a fraction do we take w/r/t girls/women since it is a HUGE leap to think that community-based 3d and 4th division women's teams will have the following like the equivalent men's teams?

Interesting post. I agree that the US will have the numbers but believe that Europe will trump that everyday by providing elite coaching in elite environments to elite players. Just look at Italy & Spain in the WWC, who have come from nowhere, relatively speaking, to having teams that can compete with the best in the world. The majority of the Italian team play for Juventus and it shows. Italy didn't make the 2015 WWC and Spain didn't win a game, 4 years later ... those federations ahve only started to take notice, as have European Feds in general, the result is 7 of 8 Qfinalist - US still won though .

The US has more "elite" programs & teams earlier (youth) and through college, but how many of those are truly coached by elite coaches in elite environments. How many of those teams really have elite players, training together daily and playing other similar standard players all the time?

Parents have their DDs play soccer in the US at an elite level for college, generally. Not everyone, for sure, but its a carrot out there for all none the less - and its a really super thing, thank you Title IX. I've watched college games and some teams are good and some are truly awful but are "good" programs. The European elite will be clustered in professional clubs while the US elite will be spread across colleges with a wide, varied and disparate coaching pool. The US will remain competitive through numbers. The US could probably remain dominant, based on those numbers but would need to heed the advice of various posters here and create truly elite pools from an early age and not rely on clubs or GDA or ECNL or colleges and hope it all comes together as it has previously.

On La Masia, it produces elite players all the time, just not elite enough to get into the Barca team ahead of the super elite players there or the super elite players they can buy with proven track records. Chelsea had 50+ players out on load from their academy last year. Some will make it, but not at Chelsea, and some won't. They sell those players to fund their academy and "hope" some make it - they sold De Bruin, Salah and Lukaku to name 3, who were not elite enough at that time. There's no patience in the men's game at that level, but there is a wealth of opportunities for players to earn and living and develop and make it big later.

Sorry for the long rambling reply ...

 

[dk_b]

The main body of your post is pretty solid so I won’t really address it here. I will instead tackle your last main point regarding La Masia and the kids that don’t make it through.

There are only 25 spots for a national team anyways. Is washing out of La Masia really any different than the 98% of our kids that don’t play in college? Is quitting a mid major D1 soccer program after the sophomore year really MORE beneficial to our women’s game?

The young lady who washes out at La Masia can still go to other clubs if they want AND it is economically feasible. It’s not like there is a way for our college players to really stay in the game past college. We really only have room for about 225, 25 of which are USWNT players, to continue to play and develop past college. With 15 leagues in Europe there are lots of places “La Masia washouts” can keep playing and developing if they wish to do so.

The only thing we have to offer our late bloomers, ironically, is Europe.

The kids who wash out before and or during college still have their education. The kids who become pros as teens in a European academy and then wash out don’t have as soft a landing. It is quite different putting all your eggs in a pro basket. (Not unlike Latin American boys who sign baseball contracts at very young ages)

 

[Mullet]

The kids who wash out before and or during college still have their education. The kids who become pros as teens in a European academy and then wash out don’t have as soft a landing. It is quite different putting all your eggs in a pro basket. (Not unlike Latin American boys who sign baseball contracts at very young ages)

There is no age limit with college. Nothing is stopping them form going to college later. Not to discount the complexity and difficulty of the decision but putting college off for 4 years is not a deal breaker especially in Europe where college is more affordable.

 

[wc_baller]

The kids who wash out before and or during college still have their education. The kids who become pros as teens in a European academy and then wash out don’t have as soft a landing. It is quite different putting all your eggs in a pro basket. (Not unlike Latin American boys who sign baseball contracts at very young ages)

Great point. I had a friend who played minor league ball right out of high school. Not a high draft pick but got a reasonable bonus. Struggled for years in the minors, and then really struggled with life after washing out of the sport. No way in hell I'd want that for my soccer-playing daughter, and no way she'd want that for herself. College is the goal.

 

[espola]

Great point. I had a friend who played minor league ball right out of high school. Not a high draft pick but got a reasonable bonus. Struggled for years in the minors, and then really struggled with life after washing out of the sport. No way in hell I'd want that for my soccer-playing daughter, and no way she'd want that for herself. College is the goal.

My soccer-playing son ended up with a degree from a school with a good reputation, most of it paid for by doing what he loved. He had several tryouts and semi-formal offers, but I am pleased that he took instead a job paying more than the average MLS salary.

And he still plays in a weekly amateur league.

 

[MakeAPlay]

The league growth is really just starting to take off in Europe. While we have had some false starts with our own women's league over the same time frame, unlike Europe we had the college game. Europe truly relies on a professional academy model. Without professional leagues there really is nothing comparable in Europe to our collegiate system, a system that is well over 30 years old and still growing. European women have had nowhere to play until just a decade ago if they didn't come to our colleges.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/socc...p-soccer-worldwide-growth-20190603-story.html

And if numbers are low at the youth level clubs like Barcelona are doing this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/sports/barcelona-girls-soccer-womens-world-cup.html

My kid plays up a couple of years and also plays with boys and I've had to fight hard with club coaches to utilize all the possible opportunities while they are available. That I HAVE to struggle to find coaches who are progressive enough is another problem we have.

That side bar aside, in regards to the leagues being top heavy in Europe many of the leagues have promotion relegation, which obviously means 2nd tier leagues. Those second tier leagues we can consider our D1 mid majors. But as the girls youth system continues to grow in numbers the European model should be able to easily match our collegiate system with more upside to surpass it in the coming years. And on top of it, our colleges sit here with open arms for many of the European women who simply don't make their own pro academies.

And culturally, I think the women's game is different here in the U.S. than the men's side. I expect our player pool to stay very, very large and very talented which will always keep us in the mix but to stay dominant the NWSL needs to be twice its current size and more women need to go directly and skip college. The problem is kids can't afford to go pro here for what NWSL amounts to be just a summer league. Many players go to Australia when NWSL ends just to keep the checks coming.

The players that we get from Europe aren't players that washed out. It's actually quite the opposite. Many are YNT players who simply want an education. UCLA had 2 players in it's 2015 recruiting class that weren't starters who play professionally in Europe and came from professional academies.

https://uclabruins.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=2093

https://uclabruins.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=2075

 

[vegasguy]

So do coaches.

True. Do you have a particular gripe you want to share?

 

[MakeAPlay]

Interesting post. I agree that the US will have the numbers but believe that Europe will trump that everyday by providing elite coaching in elite environments to elite players. Just look at Italy & Spain in the WWC, who have come from nowhere, relatively speaking, to having teams that can compete with the best in the world. The majority of the Italian team play for Juventus and it shows. Italy didn't make the 2015 WWC and Spain didn't win a game, 4 years later ... those federations ahve only started to take notice, as have European Feds in general, the result is 7 of 8 Qfinalist - US still won though .

The US has more "elite" programs & teams earlier (youth) and through college, but how many of those are truly coached by elite coaches in elite environments. How many of those teams really have elite players, training together daily and playing other similar standard players all the time?

Parents have their DDs play soccer in the US at an elite level for college, generally. Not everyone, for sure, but its a carrot out there for all none the less - and its a really super thing, thank you Title IX. I've watched college games and some teams are good and some are truly awful but are "good" programs. The European elite will be clustered in professional clubs while the US elite will be spread across colleges with a wide, varied and disparate coaching pool. The US will remain competitive through numbers. The US could probably remain dominant, based on those numbers but would need to heed the advice of various posters here and create truly elite pools from an early age and not rely on clubs or GDA or ECNL or colleges and hope it all comes together as it has previously.

On La Masia, it produces elite players all the time, just not elite enough to get into the Barca team ahead of the super elite players there or the super elite players they can buy with proven track records. Chelsea had 50+ players out on load from their academy last year. Some will make it, but not at Chelsea, and some won't. They sell those players to fund their academy and "hope" some make it - they sold De Bruin, Salah and Lukaku to name 3, who were not elite enough at that time. There's no patience in the men's game at that level, but there is a wealth of opportunities for players to earn and living and develop and make it big later.

Sorry for the long rambling reply ...

Great point but in the women's game once you get outside of the top 6 or so teams it drops off pretty significantly. For example. The Argentina women's national team lost 2 friendlies to UNLV and one of the Utah D1 teams (not BYU or Utah). Argentina almost made the round of 16.

 

[vegasguy]

Telling parents where to put their kids is always a tough thing to do. There are lots of VALID reasons kids change clubs and to your point there are lots of hoppers too. But that doesn't need to be US Soccer's concern either. If they are tracking 40 kids in a metro area per age group they need to have more direct conversations with those parents about where might be best fit club wise and so forth.

If US Soccer is tracking the kids they should be actively working with the clubs and the kids and possibly have the authority to recommend a logistically feasible club change. This would be pie in the sky. But at the very least US Soccer should be striving to get those 25-40 kids together on one field on a regular basis. Essentially as I said, the ODP kind of runs things.

There are tons of reasons kids change clubs. I get it. We all have kids playing and most all have similar thoughts and hopes for our players. What I am saying the bigger point is US Soccer wants the DA to be their philosophy / program/ YNT funnel but it is mostly self-regulated at the club level. US Soccer is not regulating everything. It is impossible.

Club DA A tells a player she is good and sits on the DA bench and plays... then comes along DA B and tells the same player she is a DA starter and YNT quality. Player movement. Is there someone in there current club pool just as good to move up the ladder and maybe the 20th person on the roster down the ladder. I do not think that type of development occurs enough at any club... DA / ECNL / NPL / ABC.

I don't know if this occurs today in DA on either boys or girls but you sure read a lot about DA player movement form one club to another (for whatever reason). US Soccer can not put in a movement rule for sure. This board would blow up (but a fun read).

 

[VegasParent]

True. Do you have a particular gripe you want to share?

Just making the point that you can't expect parents and players to be loyal when coaches are not. Plus, why continuing paying a club that you are unhappy at?

 

[Mullet]

Great point but in the women's game once you get outside of the top 6 or so teams it drops off pretty significantly. For example. The Argentina women's national team lost 2 friendlies to UNLV and one of the Utah D1 teams (not BYU or Utah). Argentina almost made the round of 16.

And you know what Argentina doesn't have?


A women's pro league.

 

[VegasParent]

There are tons of reasons kids change clubs. I get it. We all have kids playing and most all have similar thoughts and hopes for our players. What I am saying the bigger point is US Soccer wants the DA to be their philosophy / program/ YNT funnel but it is mostly self-regulated at the club level. US Soccer is not regulating everything. It is impossible.

Club DA A tells a player she is good and sits on the DA bench and plays... then comes along DA B and tells the same player she is a DA starter and YNT quality. Player movement. Is there someone in there current club pool just as good to move up the ladder and maybe the 20th person on the roster down the ladder. I do not think that type of development occurs enough at any club... DA / ECNL / NPL / ABC.

I don't know if this occurs today in DA on either boys or girls but you sure read a lot about DA player movement form one club to another (for whatever reason). US Soccer can not put in a movement rule for sure. This board would blow up (but a fun read).

I get it that you got promoted to coaching an ECNL 2 team so you feel the need to bash everything DA, but most of the things you are bashing is what your club was doing before DA existed. No up or down movement between teams, and coaches not playing kids in scrimmages. No club or league is perfect but hopefully the competition will cause everyone to strive for the best.

 

[MakeAPlay]

And you know what Argentina doesn't have?


A women's pro league.

That circles back to it being an economic issue. Which women's sports in general are an economic issue (other than tennis and volleyball). The European pro leagues love American college players. Most decent D1 players can get a contract in Europe without much problem. Unfortunately, unless they are a top player coming out of college they don't command much of a salary.

 

[Mullet]

There are tons of reasons kids change clubs. I get it. We all have kids playing and most all have similar thoughts and hopes for our players. What I am saying the bigger point is US Soccer wants the DA to be their philosophy / program/ YNT funnel but it is mostly self-regulated at the club level. US Soccer is not regulating everything. It is impossible.

Club DA A tells a player she is good and sits on the DA bench and plays... then comes along DA B and tells the same player she is a DA starter and YNT quality. Player movement. Is there someone in there current club pool just as good to move up the ladder and maybe the 20th person on the roster down the ladder. I do not think that type of development occurs enough at any club... DA / ECNL / NPL / ABC.

I don't know if this occurs today in DA on either boys or girls but you sure read a lot about DA player movement form one club to another (for whatever reason). US Soccer can not put in a movement rule for sure. This board would blow up (but a fun read).

Yup, and all the more reason for DA to run regular NTC's. Scouts should also be attending a club practice at least once a month. But, in general, they do need to be more hands on. Logistically, economically and structurally how is the question.

 

[MakeAPlay]

On the women's side having Real Madrid invest 2 million euros into their team is going to help. Not to mention Man U getting promoted to the FA Championship division is a good thing too. You will see some very talented North Americans headed over there in a few months.

 

[Mullet]

That circles back to it being an economic issue. Which women's sports in general are an economic issue (other than tennis and volleyball). The European pro leagues love American college players. Most decent D1 players can get a contract in Europe without much problem. Unfortunately, unless they are a top player coming out of college they don't command much of a salary.

In South America it is as much a cultural issue as it is an economic one. But regardless, the discussion is in reference to European nations because they have the most leagues at the moment. I'll have to look but I don't think a single nation escaped group stage or went beyond the first knockout game without having a professional league.