ECNL vs. DA turf war has created a 'toxic environment'

[dk_b]

You will also start to see more and more home grown talent there too in the coming years.

You say that definitively and I want to believe you but tease that our a bit more. How do you know we will see that in the coming years? Do you have boots on the ground there? Many friends in youth programs at 15 or 16? We know it happens on the boys’ side so it is capable. But I just don’t have evidence that provides the same certainty you have that the grass roots level girls soccer is experiencing a boom. Here we had Title IX in the 70s, cable TV in the 80s (showing more events showcasing women - tennis and golf in particular), the ‘99ers and now the last two titles. That’s a lot to build and sustain participation. What does Spain beyond possible investments by specific clubs? Explain how that trickles down to Premia de Mar (a suburb of Barcelona similar to the East Bay suburbs in NorCal) and an increase in youth teams and leagues?

 

[MacDre]

You say that definitively and I want to believe you but tease that our a bit more. How do you know we will see that in the coming years? Do you have boots on the ground there? Many friends in youth programs at 15 or 16? We know it happens on the boys’ side so it is capable. But I just don’t have evidence that provides the same certainty you have that the grass roots level girls soccer is experiencing a boom. Here we had Title IX in the 70s, cable TV in the 80s (showing more events showcasing women - tennis and golf in particular), the ‘99ers and now the last two titles. That’s a lot to build and sustain participation. What does Spain beyond possible investments by specific clubs? Explain how that trickles down to Premia de Mar (a suburb of Barcelona similar to the East Bay suburbs in NorCal) and an increase in youth teams and leagues?

My player has spent time training with UD Levante in Valencia and the training and players were excellent. Also the media coverage of women’s game in Spain is light years ahead of the NWSL. Whenever I’m in Spain I can find a women’s game televised just by channel surfing.

 

[MakeAPlay]

My player has spent time training with UD Levante in Valencia and the training and players were excellent. Also the media coverage of women’s game in Spain is light years ahead of the NWSL. Whenever I’m in Spain I can find a women’s game televised just by channel surfing.

And yet the teams still aren't very good! Look at how Barcelona and Atletico Madrid rolls through that league!

https://www.fcbarcelona.com/en/football/womens-football/results

This article states that essentially 30 players in LA Liga Fem got paid anything for playing in 2017 and that the Spanish Federation is requiring that the games be televised and they are investing in the game (which is good).

https://www.latimes.com/sports/soccer/la-sp-us-spain-fc-barcelona-world-cup-20190622-story.html

 

[vegasguy]

For the record I don't exclusively bash DA.. my opinions are mine and as a whole on youth soccer. Not club or league specific.

 

[vegasguy]

Just making the point that you can't expect parents and players to be loyal when coaches are not. Plus, why continuing paying a club that you are unhappy at?

My point on club hopping was US Soccer stepping in and preventing kids from moving from 1 DA to the next socal. Promote from with in if they want true development. It is unrealistic as parents and players make decisions not US Soccer when it comes to where to play. It is unrealistic as my comment of DA and ECNL having one set of leagues with promotion and relegation.

 

[timbuck]

My point on club hopping was US Soccer stepping in and preventing kids from moving from 1 DA to the next socal. Promote from with in if they want true development. It is unrealistic as parents and players make decisions not US Soccer when it comes to where to play. It is unrealistic as my comment of DA and ECNL having one set of leagues with promotion and relegation.

If someone has been at 3 different clubs in 2.5 years, maybe it's not the "club or the coach" that's the issue.

 

[Ellejustus]

Or better yet, we

There are tons of reasons kids change clubs. I get it. We all have kids playing and most all have similar thoughts and hopes for our players. What I am saying the bigger point is US Soccer wants the DA to be their philosophy / program/ YNT funnel but it is mostly self-regulated at the club level. US Soccer is not regulating everything. It is impossible.

Club DA A tells a player she is good and sits on the DA bench and plays... then comes along DA B and tells the same player she is a DA starter and YNT quality. Player movement. Is there someone in there current club pool just as good to move up the ladder and maybe the 20th person on the roster down the ladder. I do not think that type of development occurs enough at any club... DA / ECNL / NPL / ABC.

I don't know if this occurs today in DA on either boys or girls but you sure read a lot about DA player movement form one club to another (for whatever reason). US Soccer can not put in a movement rule for sure. This board would blow up (but a fun read).

h

If someone has been at 3 different clubs in 2.5 years, maybe it's not the "club or the coach" that's the issue.

Perception in this sport is a bitch. I can speak from experience. Many different things go into play for "club hopping." Moving, full ride vs Pay, verbally abusive coach(s) or even DA vs ECNL are some reasons for player movement.

 

[vegasguy]

Or better yet we??
I do not think I understand.

 

[MacDre]

And yet the teams still aren't very good! Look at how Barcelona and Atletico Madrid rolls through that league!

https://www.fcbarcelona.com/en/football/womens-football/results

This article states that essentially 30 players in LA Liga Fem got paid anything for playing in 2017 and that the Spanish Federation is requiring that the games be televised and they are investing in the game (which is good).

https://www.latimes.com/sports/soccer/la-sp-us-spain-fc-barcelona-world-cup-20190622-story.html

I agree that teams aren’t currently that good, but I think they are getting better fast.

I took my player for workouts in Valencia and Madrid last summer because her coaches in Mexico didn’t feel comfortable about Liga MX dropping their prohibition on foreign born players in their Femenil league. The workouts were successful and she received offers from both. At the time, I thought maybe after she finishes college.

Upon returning home, I started shopping for clubs and attempting to find a club to help prepare her for college. I watched games and took my player to workout with teams and for the most part have been throughly disappointed with the level of play. We have quantity but not much quality. Now, I’m terrified at the prospect of her playing club and college because of the level of play.

We don’t have a majority soccer culture and many of our potential stars are excluded because they’ve never been exposed to the game or their families can’t afford it. I think Europe and Mexico have advantages due to their soccer culture and accessibility.

My player has trained in Mexico, Spain, and the USA and based on what I’m seeing we are going to have some serious problems by 2027 if we do not make adjustments to stay on top. I think the attention my player received from the coaches at Cal and FSU as an 11 year old confirm my suspicion and speaks volumes regarding the better soccer foundation acquired in a soccer nation.

Like many on this board, I believe in education. However, when I look at the condensed college season, the different rules, and read about all the kids plagued with injuries throughout their college career on this board I’m not so sure college is such a good place. When I watch the highlights of the tackles that caused the Tierna Davidson and Sophia Smith injuries I think oh hell no, if someone tackled my daughter like that I’d be ready to fight her and her family. Both tackles were unsportsmanlike and malicious in my opinion. So, I’m skeptical about the quality and unnecessary aggression of the college game.

At this juncture, I think the fight between GDA and ECNL is a red herring. I think both sides need to come together to fight for a 2 semester college season. I also think we need much better training at the pre DA/ECNL level to remain competitive.

 

[Mullet]

You say that definitively and I want to believe you but tease that our a bit more. How do you know we will see that in the coming years? Do you have boots on the ground there? Many friends in youth programs at 15 or 16? We know it happens on the boys’ side so it is capable. But I just don’t have evidence that provides the same certainty you have that the grass roots level girls soccer is experiencing a boom. Here we had Title IX in the 70s, cable TV in the 80s (showing more events showcasing women - tennis and golf in particular), the ‘99ers and now the last two titles. That’s a lot to build and sustain participation. What does Spain beyond possible investments by specific clubs? Explain how that trickles down to Premia de Mar (a suburb of Barcelona similar to the East Bay suburbs in NorCal) and an increase in youth teams and leagues?

I have friends over there and the girls game is growing in popularity. That is the real key. As I’ve said before, I’m looking further downstream than the current 18-32 cohort, I’m talking the 5-15 year old cohort and beyond.

The game was simply not supported and widely available to girls for much more than the last ten years across the board.

 

[MakeAPlay]

I agree that teams aren’t currently that good, but I think they are getting better fast.

I took my player for workouts in Valencia and Madrid last summer because her coaches in Mexico didn’t feel comfortable about Liga MX dropping their prohibition on foreign born players in their Femenil league. The workouts were successful and she received offers from both. At the time, I thought maybe after she finishes college.

Upon returning home, I started shopping for clubs and attempting to find a club to help prepare her for college. I watched games and took my player to workout with teams and for the most part have been throughly disappointed with the level of play. We have quantity but not much quality. Now, I’m terrified at the prospect of her playing club and college because of the level of play.

We don’t have a majority soccer culture and many of our potential stars are excluded because they’ve never been exposed to the game or their families can’t afford it. I think Europe and Mexico have advantages due to their soccer culture and accessibility.

My player has trained in Mexico, Spain, and the USA and based on what I’m seeing we are going to have some serious problems by 2027 if we do not make adjustments to stay on top. I think the attention my player received from the coaches at Cal and FSU as an 11 year old confirm my suspicion and speaks volumes regarding the better soccer foundation acquired in a soccer nation.

Like many on this board, I believe in education. However, when I look at the condensed college season, the different rules, and read about all the kids plagued with injuries throughout their college career on this board I’m not so sure college is such a good place. When I watch the highlights of the tackles that caused the Tierna Davidson and Sophia Smith injuries I think oh hell no, if someone tackled my daughter like that I’d be ready to fight her and her family. Both tackles were unsportsmanlike and malicious in my opinion. So, I’m skeptical about the quality and unnecessary aggression of the college game.

At this juncture, I think the fight between GDA and ECNL is a red herring. I think both sides need to come together to fight for a 2 semester college season. I also think we need much better training at the pre DA/ECNL level to remain competitive.

We will definitely see what happens going forward. I just am not convinced that they are ultimately going to be able to overcome the structural and cultural advantages that we have not to mention the economics of it all. Most of the European leagues on the men's side are extremely top heavy and that is also the case on the women's side. We will see what happens. I will be happy if the tide rises over the next decade. Every 4 years the hype comes and goes yet little changes. I hope that this is different.

Good luck to you and your player.

 

[Mullet]

We will definitely see what happens going forward. I just am not convinced that they are ultimately going to be able to overcome the structural and cultural advantages that we have not to mention the economics of it all. Most of the European leagues on the men's side are extremely top heavy and that is also the case on the women's side. We will see what happens. I will be happy if the tide rises over the next decade. Every 4 years the hype comes and goes yet little changes. I hope that this is different.

Good luck to you and your player.

I'm confused by this point. Of course leagues are top heavy and so are international teams. The NFL, NHL, MLB are all top heavy too.

Is there nothing more top heavy than a 9 team NWSL in a nation with the largest pool of female players?

When National Teams are being formed they are not looking to 2nd division leagues for players. If your players are coming from MLS you will not get far on the international stage. A majority of your players need be playing in the top three leagues in Europe.

 

[MakeAPlay]

I'm confused by this point. Of course leagues are top heavy and so are international teams. The NFL, NHL, MLB are all top heavy too.

Is there nothing more top heavy than a 9 team NWSL in a nation with the largest pool of female players?

When National Teams are being formed they are not looking to 2nd division leagues for players. If your players are coming from MLS you will not get far on the international stage. A majority of your players need be playing in the top three leagues in Europe.

The NWSL is not top heavy. The games are quite competitive. The NFL, NHL and MLB are not top heavy. The salary cap and draft structure in American sports leagues insures that there is parity. In Europe it is simply a matter of who can afford the best players. Very few first teams on the men's side have many players that actually came up through the ranks of their academy.

Every member of the USWNT plays in the NWSL. The North Carolina Courage won the ICC over Lyon with it's all star team. On the women's side our talent pool is just so large that it gives us an advantage.

 

[Soccer43]

I agree that teams aren’t currently that good, but I think they are getting better fast.

I took my player for workouts in Valencia and Madrid last summer because her coaches in Mexico didn’t feel comfortable about Liga MX dropping their prohibition on foreign born players in their Femenil league. The workouts were successful and she received offers from both. At the time, I thought maybe after she finishes college.

Upon returning home, I started shopping for clubs and attempting to find a club to help prepare her for college. I watched games and took my player to workout with teams and for the most part have been throughly disappointed with the level of play. We have quantity but not much quality. Now, I’m terrified at the prospect of her playing club and college because of the level of play.

We don’t have a majority soccer culture and many of our potential stars are excluded because they’ve never been exposed to the game or their families can’t afford it. I think Europe and Mexico have advantages due to their soccer culture and accessibility.

My player has trained in Mexico, Spain, and the USA and based on what I’m seeing we are going to have some serious problems by 2027 if we do not make adjustments to stay on top. I think the attention my player received from the coaches at Cal and FSU as an 11 year old confirm my suspicion and speaks volumes regarding the better soccer foundation acquired in a soccer nation.

Like many on this board, I believe in education. However, when I look at the condensed college season, the different rules, and read about all the kids plagued with injuries throughout their college career on this board I’m not so sure college is such a good place. When I watch the highlights of the tackles that caused the Tierna Davidson and Sophia Smith injuries I think oh hell no, if someone tackled my daughter like that I’d be ready to fight her and her family. Both tackles were unsportsmanlike and malicious in my opinion. So, I’m skeptical about the quality and unnecessary aggression of the college game.

At this juncture, I think the fight between GDA and ECNL is a red herring. I think both sides need to come together to fight for a 2 semester college season. I also think we need much better training at the pre DA/ECNL level to remain competitive.

Sounds like your best bet is to have your player train in Europe and skip the club and college situation here

 

[MacDre]

We will definitely see what happens going forward. I just am not convinced that they are ultimately going to be able to overcome the structural and cultural advantages that we have not to mention the economics of it all. Most of the European leagues on the men's side are extremely top heavy and that is also the case on the women's side. We will see what happens. I will be happy if the tide rises over the next decade. Every 4 years the hype comes and goes yet little changes. I hope that this is different

I just don’t see all of the so called talent in my players age bracket. As of now, GDA and ECNL are watered down and are top heavy like many European leagues.

I think we have been stockpiling players for years and that gave us a temporary advantage at this world cup and maybe the next. Our youth system is full of average kids (academically & athletically) whose parents are buying them into a better university similar to the parents in the college admissions scandal. For them, it’s not about the soccer. These kids are just trying to get into a better school and it shows. We are very far from a soccer meritocracy.

On the other hand in Mexico for example, which is known for its “Machismo” the women’s league is thriving. Each team is required to have at least 2 sixteen year olds and play them. Each team is also only allowed 2 players over 23. Women can also receive becas (scholarships) to prestigious schools like tec de monterrey if they want to go to university. You can find a women’s game on Fox/ESPN any day of the week. Their championship games draw crowds of 50k plus.
I think Mexico and Europe have arrived and are passing us as we speak!

 

[MacDre]

Sounds like your best bet is to have your player train in Europe and skip the club and college situation here

I just have to convince my wife and get a job in Europe because kids under 18 can’t go to Europe for soccer reasons. Getting the job is the easy part but convincing the wife is not so easy.

I’m also sure this could apply to more kids in the future if they received better training at the younger ages. I think CM at Stanford is a excellent example of what I’m talking about.

 

[MakeAPlay]

I just don't see it. The Mexican league isn't a good example. The full Mexican WNT loses to D1 college teams. Again I hope to see it and I agree that splitting the best players between multiple leagues. I still think that we have a huge advantage in sheer numbers. We have more professionals and if we did a champions league type tournament I would bet that we would have multiple teams make it to the semifinals.

 

[Mullet]

The NWSL is not top heavy. The games are quite competitive. The NFL, NHL and MLB are not top heavy. The salary cap and draft structure in American sports leagues insures that there is parity. In Europe it is simply a matter of who can afford the best players. Very few first teams on the men's side have many players that actually came up through the ranks of their academy.

Every member of the USWNT plays in the NWSL. The North Carolina Courage won the ICC over Lyon with it's all star team. On the women's side our talent pool is just so large that it gives us an advantage.

Ahh, I wasn't thinking of "Top Heavy" league wise in the same way that you are.

Washington Spirit essentially going win less last year does not demonstrate a balanced league. No matter the league there is always a wide gap between the top and the bottom of the league. And regardless it has certainly had little impact on the international game on the men's side where European Nations as small as Belgium and Croatia still produce top National Teams that made the semi and finals of the last World Cup. So even countries with a small player pool competing in Top Heavy leagues more than just competed.

 

[Dubs]

I agree that teams aren’t currently that good, but I think they are getting better fast.

I took my player for workouts in Valencia and Madrid last summer because her coaches in Mexico didn’t feel comfortable about Liga MX dropping their prohibition on foreign born players in their Femenil league. The workouts were successful and she received offers from both. At the time, I thought maybe after she finishes college.

Upon returning home, I started shopping for clubs and attempting to find a club to help prepare her for college. I watched games and took my player to workout with teams and for the most part have been throughly disappointed with the level of play. We have quantity but not much quality. Now, I’m terrified at the prospect of her playing club and college because of the level of play.

We don’t have a majority soccer culture and many of our potential stars are excluded because they’ve never been exposed to the game or their families can’t afford it. I think Europe and Mexico have advantages due to their soccer culture and accessibility.

My player has trained in Mexico, Spain, and the USA and based on what I’m seeing we are going to have some serious problems by 2027 if we do not make adjustments to stay on top. I think the attention my player received from the coaches at Cal and FSU as an 11 year old confirm my suspicion and speaks volumes regarding the better soccer foundation acquired in a soccer nation.

Like many on this board, I believe in education. However, when I look at the condensed college season, the different rules, and read about all the kids plagued with injuries throughout their college career on this board I’m not so sure college is such a good place. When I watch the highlights of the tackles that caused the Tierna Davidson and Sophia Smith injuries I think oh hell no, if someone tackled my daughter like that I’d be ready to fight her and her family. Both tackles were unsportsmanlike and malicious in my opinion. So, I’m skeptical about the quality and unnecessary aggression of the college game.

At this juncture, I think the fight between GDA and ECNL is a red herring. I think both sides need to come together to fight for a 2 semester college season. I also think we need much better training at the pre DA/ECNL level to remain competitive.

What clubs did you try out with? Just trying to get perspective because there are some that get it right. If you're kid gets to play at the highest level as time goes on, there will be that type of physical play. I've seen it in college and the pros, so I'm not sure you'll ever get away from that.

 

[MakeAPlay]

Ahh, I wasn't thinking of "Top Heavy" league wise in the same way that you are.

Washington Spirit essentially going win less last year does not demonstrate a balanced league. No matter the league there is always a wide gap between the top and the bottom of the league. And regardless it has certainly had little impact on the international game on the men's side where European Nations as small as Belgium and Croatia still produce top National Teams that made the semi and finals of the last World Cup. So even countries with a small player pool competing in Top Heavy leagues more than just competed.

The Spirit are a playoff team now. That doesn't happen in Europe. Going from last to first. In America we have built in some equality to our sports leagues with a draft and salary caps. Europe has nothing of the sort and until they do their leagues of either gender and of any sport will always be top heavy.