Splitting

[Keepers_Keeper]

Great Thread...lots of points.

• Height: My keeper is 5'8+ @ 15.5 yrs old. Tall, lean, muscular and athletic. Don't know where she got it Physically she is the "perfect" keeper based on all the comments from coaches - she can dive high, low, great hands,fast feet, quick sprint, strong distribution etc. That said, her height isn't what makes her a great keeper - it's her technique, work ethic and natural ability. There are many other keepers we know that have height and are physically similar, but can't move or catch the ball. We know others that are small, quick and nimble and can get to the top of the goal to punch out a ball because they can physically get there by moving rather than being tall. So yes, height is an advantage, but coaches can tell even by the keepers standing position and movement if they are skilled or just plain big. I also hope coaches can see through 'showboating' - you know, when keepers make a very dramatic dive or make something look impressive but wasn't necessary to make the play. Why do a full extension dive on a slow moving ball with no opposing players advancing - just because you can? That's probably another thread topic though
• Splitting: This is a complex. At first we (as parents) weren't sure about splitting 50/50. Our ECNL teams split, except one team that doesn't have 2 qualified keepers, but that is about to change. The advantages (training partner, someone who understands the GK position, warm-up partner, etc.) outweigh having to split time during games. Being a GK is 75% training and practicing and 25% game time. That said, the MOST important part of splitting the position is the other keeper. Splitting works best if the keepers 1) get a long and aren't competitive with each other, 2) are similar in technique and physical ability, and 3) BOTH have the respect of the rest of the team. Keepers also need to train on the field together and with their team as well as in the goal. Keepers that split time need to be tight with each other, not compete or try to one-up each other, and approach they way they play with their team as 'one voice'. As far as splitting time, our keepers have a system and rotate starts. Coach doesn't decide who starts, they do. But I know some coaches have a primary keeper and the other is back-up. That wouldn't work for us. We are fortunate in that her first year in HS (on varisty) she was the only keeper. So she got full 90 minutes on the field, which was awesome.
• Coaching: DD's coach is great, but is not a GK coach. That's why its so important for the 2 keepers to challenge each other and be similar. Our club does have GK coaching, but it's not the intensity my daughter and her keeper partner need or want. They both have private training for technical and skill training (when they have time!). I do wish the GK's time at practice was better utilized. They sometimes spend an hour of every practice training and warming themselves up waiting for scrimmage, shooting, etc. I really wish our club had a rotating GK coach that went to the fields for 30-45 minutes of the ECNL team practices to work with keepers.

I'll get off my soap box Thanks for providing this GK forum. Very valuable and specific info is shared and much appreciated!

 

[MWN]

... I also hope coaches can see through 'showboating' - you know, when keepers make a very dramatic dive or make something look impressive but wasn't necessary to make the play. Why do a full extension dive on a slow moving ball with no opposing players advancing - just because you can? That's probably another thread topic though

Only the GK coaches can see through that. Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill. Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post. OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique. The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive. My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving. He does this multiple times. The coach is getting pissed. He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive." Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half. After the first half we are down by 3. Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.

Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.

 

[Woobie06]

Being a GK is 75% training and practicing and 25% game time.

Hi, I really liked your post a lot. What you had to say about how splitting works on your DD's team seems pretty unique. I can't believe the girls plan their own split schedule. Kudos to both sets of parents, kids, and the coach. This sounds like the best possible scenario for splitting. I know some kids that share and this is not even close, not even remotely close to the relationship of the kids, parents, or the team for that matter. I'm wondering if the player relationship with splitting is different with boys/girls? Just curious.

I quoted the line in your post regarding the breakdown of training/game time regarding a keepers development because I had a question...That sounds right from a chronological time perspective - roughly 3 practices to 1 game. Regarding development (fundamentals, technique, positioning, footwork, etc.) and game experience (game situations, pressure, defensive adjustments, etc.), there is an inflection point where the development becomes secondary to experience, where the overall ability and the growth occurs from actual experience (like going to college before getting a job).

My question....Do you feel your player is missing out on "experience" or there is any detriment by splitting rather than playing full games?

Also, at that age(u16/17??) what do college recruiters/coaches say regarding splitting, etc.?

We are a few years away so just curious. Thanks for the info.

 

[Grace T.]

Only the GK coaches can see through that. Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill. Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post. OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique. The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive. My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving. He does this multiple times. The coach is getting pissed. He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive." Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half. After the first half we are down by 3. Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.

Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.

I'll one up you on this. For a short time, my son had a coach that wanted him to block low shots with his feet rather than risk a proper scoop catch.

 

[Keepers_Keeper]

Regarding development (fundamentals, technique, positioning, footwork, etc.) and game experience (game situations, pressure, defensive adjustments, etc.), there is an inflection point where the development becomes secondary to experience, where the overall ability and the growth occurs from actual experience (like going to college before getting a job).
My question....Do you feel your player is missing out on "experience" or there is any detriment by splitting rather than playing full games?
Also, at that age(u16/17??) what do college recruiters/coaches say regarding splitting, etc.?

Thank you for even reading my reply I know my DD's arrangement and situation is rather unique. Its not perfect, but both she and we (parents) appreciate that the coach is very supportive and happy with his 02 keepers. One less thing for him to worry about on the pitch! That said, he has and does specify the starting lineup, including keepers, for very important games and/or if there is a different coach.

To answer your question... Yes, she is missing out on "experience" because she only has one half on the field for most games. But there are different types of experience. Sometimes she has a really busy half with lots of action, sometimes it's the reverse. However, she gets a different type of experience on the bench. She hears the coach, watches the play, and there is a lot of play analysis (what works and what doesn't) during the half she is not playing. Same is true for the other keeper. Then they compare notes on what the coach said, players said, review the action the keepers had, etc. I think this is also an important part of being a keeper - to be a leader on the field you have to observe from a different angle/perspective. High School is a different situation. She was fortunate to make varsity as a freshman and initially there was another keeper. That keeper partnership was even better than her club partnership (she and the HS keeper challenged each other more). Mid season the other GK was not able to play so my DD played full time for the league games. She LOVED it. So it was an adjustment going back to splitting time, but it is also a bit easier on her body

Regarding college recruiters/coaches...she does have a recruiter who says that every college has more than one keeper on their roster and you have to earn your spot and priority. We haven't talked to too many college coaches yet, but I do know that every coach and college has a different philosophy. Many D1 programs (which is my DD's trajectory) have multiple keepers. I've heard that some big D1 coaches recruit GKs specifically to be 'practice' or back-up keepers (i.e. they will likely not be game keepers but still want to play and attend the school and are content with that). That's not my DD. She wants to play, even if that means she selects smaller school with a less competitive D1 program that is growing. Plus, school/education is the primary driver. So when it comes to splitting time in college, I believe it is more an 'earn your spot' process, not a fixed split %.

College recruiting for GKs is a whole other ball game, so I hope this forum has some good intel to help us with that process too

 

[socalkdg]

Basketball recruitment is already happening, she plays center for her junior high team (6th grade) to keep things fresh. My wife ran Track and played Basketball through college internationally so she's praying my kids switch to B-Ball. It's like the Cold War in my house when it comes to Soccer vs. Basketball.

Play both. Forever. Daughter plans on club soccer and High School Basketball. She made two plays this weekend and it was her basketball training that helped her. She is 12 and at 5'4" and she can easily touch the top bar and the constant rebounding helps with her vertical jump.

Question for everyone, I've notice in the NWSL that while the keepers are tall, can you be too tall? I notice a number of them have trouble on the lower shots and getting their taller bodies down onto the ground. Plus what is more important, height, or wing span? A girl that is two inches shorter but with a wing span 3 inches longer might be better? Or no different?

And if soccer is anything like basketball those heights are exaggerated by an inch or two, and include their shoes.

 

[socalkdg]

This is a really good thread...plus I think it is also super tough for parents of GK's... I agree with so many things people have said, importance of playing full games, the mental aspect, the hall pass for guesting, number of touches and how different it is from field players, drama if there are differences in ability between the keepers, that keeping is much more than shot stopping, plus only one can play at a time, and above all if you don't play, you won't develop.

Just to share, our current philosophy right now is up through 9th grade (we are a few years away), we will have our DD on a team appropriate for her ability where she plays full-time, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance. Hopefully it will be at the same level she plays at now, and optimistically it is with the same club. That in addition with good training outside of what the club offers will hopefully be beneficial in the long run. Going into 10th Grade if she splits time on an ECNL/DA or whatever it is at that time, she will at least get the opportunity for the larger showcase events to be seen (I know these events occur at the earlier age groups as well). She is 4 years away from 10th grade, and splitting time in between is the equivalent of taking two years of development/playing away IMO. That is a lot and too much to give. This assumes she wants to be the FT Keeper (which she is currently, and has said she does not want to split). I also worry that splitting time just because there are two keepers will affect her love to play...for a variety of reasons. IMO, The better player should play more. It works that way at the other positions.

We tell our daughter the most important things at the GK position are being consistent, reliable, and available. You save what you are supposed to, and come up big more frequently than you come up short (soft goal); you are at every game, scrimmage, and event; and you play tough (as others have mentioned) and through being hurt (being hurt is not being injured, you can't play through injuries). You don't give them a reason to bring in another player. Ideally she should not need another rostered keeper to compete against in practice for motivation, hopefully there is enough motivation to work hard to play. There is competition in Club Keeper training between younger/older, Team A/B, etc. as well as mixed practices. It is a big commitment from the player and parents and not necessarily fair. I have met very few kids that want to sit on the bench and not play.

The last thing I will say is that our DD's Keeper Coach told us a story a few weeks ago about a boy he trains, and that the highest level he played was CSL Gold. This boy recently signed a Pro Contract in Denmark. My DD's Keeper Coach told us that the most important thing to do is play, play, play and get as many opportunities as you can in the goal. He said this is more important than playing in the top leagues when younger. Sometimes I think we parents might put a higher priority on the league - DA/ECNL/or whatever over where the kids need to play to develop.

Well said. Don't forget playing on an average team as a keeper gets you more chances. I've seen many games a keeper gets less than 5 chances.

 

[Mystery Train]

Question for everyone, I've notice in the NWSL that while the keepers are tall, can you be too tall? I notice a number of them have trouble on the lower shots and getting their taller bodies down onto the ground. Plus what is more important, height, or wing span? A girl that is two inches shorter but with a wing span 3 inches longer might be better? Or no different?

Can you be too tall? Yes and no.

I'll be Captain Obvious here, but it's the lack of quickness that you're observing in those tall keepers who have trouble with low shots. However, while quickness and size are rare together, they are not always mutually exclusive. It is a special genetic lottery winner that gets both. And if you have quickness AND height, look out. Neuer is 6'4", and Peter Cech is 6'5" and neither of them hurt for quickness. I would think that Kerri Walsh Jennings (6'2" Beach VB gold medalist) would have made an absolute BEAST of a goalkeeper. She's got no trouble going to ground quickly.

But yeah, I would think most women over 6 feet and men over 6'5" might have to overcome trouble with low shots and quickness of foot.

 

[midreams]

Only the GK coaches can see through that. Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill. Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post. OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique. The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive. My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving. He does this multiple times. The coach is getting pissed. He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive." Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half. After the first half we are down by 3. Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.

Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.

My son is 14, 6 feet tall, 8th grade. He has been strickly a keeper for 4 straight years. He is lean and athletic, strong. He dives, but rarely flies through the air. Never showboats a save. Ill admit, at time Ive mentioned to him that he may want to fly a little more, because we all know many coaches love the acrobatics. But he wont - he hates the landing. He asks why he should put himself through landing flat on the ground if the ball is not saveable? Logically, it makes sense, and Ive learned this is his style and its not going to change. But I always wonder if that will hurt him later when trying to impress scouts, ect....

 

[Woobie06]

My son is 14, 6 feet tall, 8th grade. He has been strickly a keeper for 4 straight years. He is lean and athletic, strong. He dives, but rarely flies through the air. Never showboats a save. Ill admit, at time Ive mentioned to him that he may want to fly a little more, because we all know many coaches love the acrobatics. But he wont - he hates the landing. He asks why he should put himself through landing flat on the ground if the ball is not saveable? Logically, it makes sense, and Ive learned this is his style and its not going to change. But I always wonder if that will hurt him later when trying to impress scouts, ect....

No need to showboat...I completely agree. Although sometimes being flashy does get attention. That said, my two cents and what I think is more impressive is a keeper who has a strong presence, confidence, consistency, command of the box and defense, and can start the attack through distribution (not punting). I would like to think that coaches are looking for more than just shot stoppers.

My DD's coach's philosophy is to always make the attempt for the ball, you might be surprised how close you get, and in time may even get there. He talks about constantly pushing and challenging your range. I agree with DD's coach's approach. Plus the optics are not the best when the keeper does not make the attempt for the ball whether they can get there or not. I always remember Don Beebe of the Bills catching Leon Lett and forcing a fumble in the Superbowl (I am a Cowboy fan BTW) as a classic example of making the effort with a positive result....and if Leon was not showboating he would have scored the TD. Leon....SMH.

 

[Mystery Train]

I always remember Don Beebe of the Bills catching Leon Lett and forcing a fumble in the Superbowl (I am a Cowboy fan BTW) as a classic example of making the effort with a positive result....and if Leon was not showboating he would have scored the TD. Leon....SMH.

Oh man. As Cowboy fans, we can laugh that one off, because we won that game going away. The Leon goof that kills me more was after the FG block against Miami in the snow on Thanksgiving. My brother-in-law is a Dolphins fan and we were watching it together with a small wager on the game and lots of trash talk. I just wanted to disappear.

 

[Mystery Train]

My DD's coach's philosophy is to always make the attempt for the ball, you might be surprised how close you get, and in time may even get there.

I try to get my DD to do this, because she doesn't fly through the air either. It's hard to get her to understand how much more range she really has. I will always remember as a teenager playing baseball with friends and trying to run down a deep fly ball that I thought I had no shot at. I had never dove at a ball before, being afraid of getting hurt on the landing. Goofing around, I dove extra dramatically almost as a joke, and blindly felt the ball land in the pocket. My friends went crazy. It felt so amazing, I didn't even remember what the landing felt like. Needless to say, I dove at everything in every sport I played after that, sometimes even when I didn't need to. Just to show off. LOL. But yeah, I wish she'd do it once in a while just to prove to herself that she can get some of those "impossible" shots too.

 

[MyDaughtersAKeeper]

My DD's coach's philosophy is to always make the attempt for the ball, you might be surprised how close you get, and in time may even get there. He talks about constantly pushing and challenging your range. I agree with DD's coach's approach. Plus the optics are not the best when the keeper does not make the attempt for the ball whether they can get there or not.

Always, Always, Always g go for the save/dive for the ball. Always! You may get there and even if you don't it shows the team that you gave everything you had to help.

 

[Eagle33]

Always, Always, Always g go for the save/dive for the ball. Always! You may get there and even if you don't it shows the team that you gave everything you had to help.

My son's keeper coach always told him "You are not going to save all the shots, but you should try"

 

[Frank]

Only the GK coaches can see through that. Brief story, a few years ago (U12), before a game the coach (a striker) was warming up the two keepers with a drill. Center of goal, go touch the left post, and "dive" for the ball, punching it away near the right post. OK, my kid touches the post, the ball is kicked, but he doesn't dive because he was fast enough to get to the ball and catch it without leaving the ground using good technique. The other slower keeper does the drill and has to dive. My kid's turn, same thing ... doesn't dive because he could get to it without diving. He does this multiple times. The coach is getting pissed. He even tells the coach "Coach, I'm not supposed to dive if I can get to the ball and catch, kick me a ball that I can't get to and then I'll dive." Finally, the coach quits the drill and tells him the other keeper is going to start the first half. After the first half we are down by 3. Second half the kid goes in and get a clean sheet for his half.

Most coaches just don't get it and are super impressed by the flying keeper that gets 1 hand on the ball and spills it back to the scrum v. the the fast keep that moves quickly and catches the ball effortlessly without jumping.

My guess is that the point of the drill was to get to the ground and warm up by doing it and not to see how far you could get. That’s likely why the coach got pissed.

 

[AGK]

You can extend that to the club in general, their idea of keeper training is quite often 10 goalies and 1 coach. Purely shooting drills with no emphasis on technique. You really having to be proactive as a parent of a GK and make sure they're getting properly trained.

So sorry that this has been you experience. We focus on both shot blocking sessions as well as team oriented sessions with our keepers. Perhaps a conversation with your DOC could lead to a better program.

 

[AGK]

My son's keeper coach always told him "You are not going to save all the shots, but you should try"

I tell my keepers and their parent that I cannot teach desire. Every player in every sport is faced with the “if only I had.....” scenario. We try to challenge them to get stuck in from the time the referee blows the whistle till the time the referee blows the whistle.

 

[mulliganmom]

On the subject of splitting - our DD was the only GK up until U15. Good experience, playing solo and sharing for all reasons cited about - competition, etc. We are looking at some scenarios now back to splitting or having the goal to ourself, and are finding it interesting that there is a coaching philosophy here too. Some coaches will only carry one keeper, others want two. Would love to hear more about that as this is the first year we are really seeing it from both sides as a keeper and seeing coaches with a direct opinion on this too. Any feedback is welcome. Thanks

 

[MWN]

On the subject of splitting - our DD was the only GK up until U15. Good experience, playing solo and sharing for all reasons cited about - competition, etc. We are looking at some scenarios now back to splitting or having the goal to ourself, and are finding it interesting that there is a coaching philosophy here too. Some coaches will only carry one keeper, others want two. Would love to hear more about that as this is the first year we are really seeing it from both sides as a keeper and seeing coaches with a direct opinion on this too. Any feedback is welcome. Thanks

As the level of play increases and the kids get older, its less about player development and more about winning. We just had a post in the GK forum that started out with the phrase that the team is looking for a keeper that can take the team to at least the semi's in National Cup for a U18 girls team (2001). A good coach is going to want to carry at least 2 keepers at the older age group for 2 reasons: (1) training sessions can be more game like when doing small-sided play; and (2) injuries are more catastrophic at the older levels. Some clubs will have multiple teams at an age group (generally at the younger levels) and can pull up keepers from other teams if in need, which is a luxury that the smaller clubs don't have and which disappears at the U16+ level for many programs given player attrition.

 

[Keepermom2]

As the girls become older they have more of social life. To have a Keeper have to miss out on so many activities that they really want to do because they are the only Keeper and they don't want to let down the team, really sucks and has the potential for the Keeper to leave the sport because they want the social life.

 

[Woobie06]

Sorry this is a long one...the splitting dilema is a tough one....I agree it depends on the coaching philosophy, the kid, team, and parents (of both kids). I have seen some very difficult/toxic situations if everyone is not on-board/same page - parent issues, issues among players, and drama, i.e. who plays in OT, Penalties, etc. I also know kids who are upset they are splitting 50%/50% because they are better and should be playing more.

There was a football coach who said this about quarterbacks, "if you have two, then you really don't have one." I think it applies to keepers. Finding the right fit is very key or there are going to be issues. I think playing time at the keeper position should be the same as all others. If one is better they should play more, not just both get half a game. The better player should get more playing time like any other position. It is earned in practice/training and by in-game performance.

I am personally against splitting halves. In my opinion, they should rotate starts and play full games for a variety of reasons - consistency during the game, keeping mentally focused for a full 90, you can't simulate stress and the end of close/tight game, time to recover from a mistake (rebuilding confidence), etc., among many others.

Plus, in college, pro, etc. very rarely do you see in game keeper changes (mostly in friendlies, not in Tournaments or Qualifying Competitions). In college, pro, etc. there most always is a clear starter. You will see where the second keeper with starts against weaker opponents, where the starter will get starts against the stronger competition and knock-out games. If they are equal (I think this is a rare scenario), alternate starts; or determine starts based on strengths, etc. That said if one keeper is better they should get more starts, and play more full games-like any other player. Just alternating halves because there are two, or to be fair makes no sense to me.

Lastly, I believe the coach needs to set the expectation with the children and parents, at the start. Let the kids compete, but set the expectation that there will be a starter and a back-up, and the better player will play more. Most often I hear coaches tell parents they are equal to avoid somebody leaving the team, or to avoid a conflict/confrontation. Believe me, the field players on the team (and parents) can tell you who the starter is/should be, it is not a mystery. The coach will usually tip their hand in knock-out games, or games with OT/PK potential to play the better keeper in the second half, and this keeper will play the OT and PK's if applicable.