ref accountablity .
- Thread starter charlie murphy
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charlie murphy
SILVER
sounds like you been there! you hit it about right on the mark. Let's hope , you are probably right on that point too.
@Eagle33,
The way this typically works during league play is as follows:
Clubs are assigned home games by League. The League typically contracts with the Referee Associations covering the geographic areas to assign games. I'm sure exceptions exist, but Presidio/SDDA, CSL, SCDSL, DA, ECNL, and even Rec all work this way. Clubs are usually taken out of the mix, because it would be a nightmare dealing with 29 clubs versus 1 league schedule. The 7v7's are generally 1 man, but could be 3 man. The 9v9's should be 3 man crews, but if there are not enough referees then they are the 1st to get a 1 man crew. Cal South doesn't allow a 2 man crew (which I believe is a mistake given the shortage of referees and that a 2 man crew could effectively do a 9v9).
When it comes to the youngers, the Assigning Association will be faced with two problems. Availability of referee crews and distance. Referees are independent contractors, so the Referee Association will generally send out an availability request and assign games to the referees who responded. There are often single games in out of way places that are very hard to fill because nobody want to drive 45 minutes to referee 1 or 2 game small-sided games. Finding 3 people willing to do so is next to impossible. The younger kids (more stamina) want 3-4 games ($$$) and the older guys want just a few higher level games (easier to referee two skilled teams playing possession soccer than two teams playing kick ball).
The way this typically works during league play is as follows:
Clubs are assigned home games by League. The League typically contracts with the Referee Associations covering the geographic areas to assign games. I'm sure exceptions exist, but Presidio/SDDA, CSL, SCDSL, DA, ECNL, and even Rec all work this way. Clubs are usually taken out of the mix, because it would be a nightmare dealing with 29 clubs versus 1 league schedule. The 7v7's are generally 1 man, but could be 3 man. The 9v9's should be 3 man crews, but if there are not enough referees then they are the 1st to get a 1 man crew. Cal South doesn't allow a 2 man crew (which I believe is a mistake given the shortage of referees and that a 2 man crew could effectively do a 9v9).
When it comes to the youngers, the Assigning Association will be faced with two problems. Availability of referee crews and distance. Referees are independent contractors, so the Referee Association will generally send out an availability request and assign games to the referees who responded. There are often single games in out of way places that are very hard to fill because nobody want to drive 45 minutes to referee 1 or 2 game small-sided games. Finding 3 people willing to do so is next to impossible. The younger kids (more stamina) want 3-4 games ($$$) and the older guys want just a few higher level games (easier to referee two skilled teams playing possession soccer than two teams playing kick ball).
Yes, there are more soccer games now than 5 years ago. There are also fewer athletes playing Pop Warner football and many of those athletes are now in soccer.
From this Article: https://www.umbel.com/blog/sports/10-data-points-prove-soccer-has-made-it-in-america/
Not only is Major League Soccer as popular with 12- to 17-year olds (a pretty hard demographic to win over) as Major League Baseball. But they are also a lot more children and teens playing soccer now. The U.S. Youth Soccer organization says that participation in soccer is 30 times higher now than it was just 40 years ago. There were 103,432 children registered to play soccer in the U.S. in 1974, 1.6 million children registered to play in 1990, and more than 3 million registered to play in 2014. The Wall Street Journal noted that youth participation in soccer is double that of tackle football and larger than baseball by about 1 million participants. There are more than 80 Soccer Development Academy facilities that teach players about the international system and act as a conduit to MLS, EPL and Italian Serie A teams.
Yes, Referees should know the rules (like the back of their hand).
Unfortunately, you absolutely and unequivocally wrong when you state "Parents aren't required to know the rules" (assuming you are a Cal South / USYS parent). Cal South makes this a point in the Codes of Conduct that all parents are required to abide by as being a member (i.e. signing up your ward for soccer). In particular, the Codes of Conduct for Parents, which you agreed to abide by each year you sign up your little one are:
Parents and Spectators
The parents' role is one of support to the players and coaches. Parents should not engage in "coaching" from the sidelines, criticizing players, coaches or game officials or trying to influence the makeup of the team at any time. Every parent and spectator is expected to:
- Learn and respect the rules of soccer and the rules of the CYSA-South.
- Show respect and courtesy to game officials, coaches, and players at all times.
- Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions or from addressing them in a loud, disrespectful, or abusive manner.
- Cheer for your child's team in a positive manner, refraining at all times from making negative or abusive remarks about the opposing team. Maintain control of your emotions and avoid actions, language, and/or gestures that may be interpreted as hostile and humiliating.
- Ensure that your child is at all games and practices at the required time or provide the coach with an appropriate excuse beforehand.
- Demonstrate appropriate gestures of sportsmanship at the conclusion of a game, win or lose.
- Teach and practice good sportsmanship and fair play by personally demonstrating commitment to these virtues.
- Promote the concept that soccer is merely a game, and that players and coaches on other teams are opponents, not enemies.
Why would Cal South state that every Parent is expected to "Learn and respect the rules of soccer?" Why would Cal South make this singular point the very first point of their code? Why not bury it somewhere down the list? Hmmmmm, curious?
Here is why. Cal South in their infinite wisdom knows that the parents are ultimately their customers. The parents are the ones with the pocketbook. The parents dictate to junior what sport junior is going to play. Having educated parents that understand the rules of soccer is fundamental to Cal South's mission of growing soccer. Cal South realizes that it can't have a bunch of parents sitting on the sideline frustrated because they don't understand the game because they don't know the rules. Cal South's customer's enjoyment of a game is dependent upon learning and understanding the rules.
Cal South also knows that when it has an educated customer base it will have far fewer problems. The parents will be able to answer little Johnny or Jenny's question on offside, why something was or wasn't a foul, why Bobby got a yellow card, the difference between shielding and impeding, etc., etc. Cal South needs you parents to understand the rules because to grow soccer as a game requires an educated population on the rules.
As a newly educated parent on your duty, I hope you will never utter this vile phrase again "Parents aren't required to know the rules." Rather, I encourage you to join the ranks of the parent's that fulfill their contractual obligation to Cal South and learn the rules of soccer.
The Official Laws of the Game can be found here: http://www.theifab.com/laws
You can download the PDF here: http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/278/082040_220517_LotG_17_18_FINAL_EN_150dpi.pdf
If you are not going to read every Law, then please study the most important ones for parents to know:
- Law 5 - Referees
- Law 6 - The Other Match Officials
- Law 8 - The Start and Restart of Play
- Law 9 - The Ball In and Out of Play
- Law 11 - Offside
- Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct
- Law 13 - Free Kicks
- Law 17 - The Corner Kick
Surfref
PREMIER
I made two of those calls this weekend and they were correct calls, but I got yelled at by the coach and spectators. I explained the change to the 2016-2017 LOTG to the coach and he thanked me. The players started in an offside position and came onto their own half to receive the ball. The restart is where the played the ball in their own half. The coach and spectators assumed the referee crew got the call wrong because the restart was in the players own half.
Having worn the 4 hats (coach/parent/ref/player), I think part of the problem with soccer is that the rules aren't very accessible. The Laws give you the broad brush strokes but 1) there are a lot of things that are left to the refs discretion (which means different refs will call things differently), and 2) there are quite a few gaps in the Laws which can only be really understood through practical experience or by researching the supplemental materials. Reading the Laws themselves won't do most inexperienced people much good (and the structure leaving the important rules to the end isn't particularly helpful). Football and baseball have a complicated rules scheme (in some ways more so than soccer)....but the rules are pretty cut and dry (for the most part, not always)....the soccer Laws have some ambiguity built into them.
4 examples from the weekend: a ref that insisted that goalkeepers could not kick their gks (only roll) with the new buildup line rule...I'm pretty sure from what I've read that's not right, but maybe there's a document floating out there I haven't seen...in any case, CalSouth didn't give the parents any input on what to expect and I found myself having to lawyer the rule (since as a sometime ref/and licensed but not practicing coach) with the ref since I had the doc too. I know the refs/coaches had meetings on these changes, but I got my document only the weeks before the season. And I only ref youngers...I can't imagine the pros that have a ton of other concerns sitting down to focus on the obscure rules for 2008/2009....there's also an ambiguity in those rules over whether the ref must stop the game and set the line or whether the keeper can waive the stop.
Lot of elbowing in the game...sometimes to the chest, sometimes to the face. If the ref had made a few elbow calls early on, maybe the players get it and say o.k. better not do it. But the call did come (very rarely) and no one (not even me) was sure why the ref called it sometimes, and why not other times, other than maybe he saw it or didn't.
The keeper charge...we all saw it on the video a few months back...same thing happened in our game. Our striker literally went spinning over and our side was screaming for a pk (didn't help the game was tied at the time). I explained to my side it was an entirely fair charge...keeper is generally given preference in the box and he had contact with the ball...no foul. There's no where parents could really look for this, even if they were inclined to (which in our team there might be quite a few takers).
Hands. We've also seen it, we all know it. The rules leave it entirely to the ref to determine whether the ball is played, and different refs call it differently. When it happens I know I'm going to get yelled at, particularly since I generally take a beat to see if the player has played the ball or the ball played the player.
We had an AR that wasn't keeping pace with the last defender and pretty much stayed near the 18. One or our parents was yelling at him a bit. After reading much of what is said I have more sympathy for him. At least we had 3 referees. Even at the 18 he could see offside pretty accurately, and I do believe it was his 3rd game of the day and heat and exhaustion would be playing a big part in his energy.
Keep my mouth shut is what my wife constantly reminds me, and I must adhere to this.
Keep my mouth shut is what my wife constantly reminds me, and I must adhere to this.
Love these two. Elbows are dangerous to the face. I feel that this should be called every time a face is involved.
I believe the rules state:
There are six offences in which contact is made with an opponent that cause a direct free kick to be awarded:
kicks an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
trips an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
charges an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
strikes an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
pushes an opponent carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force
holds an opponent
But what is carelessly, recklessly, or excessive. I know when my kid attacks the ball as keeper, she doesn't feel like she is being careless, reckless, or excessive, she believes she can get the ball. But elbows and pushing from behind always seem reckless or careless.
I also understand that keeping the game in motion is just as important and a push or elbow that doesn't really change the game might not get called.
Here is a good example of not reading the rules. Your basic question is answered in IFAB Law 12 (http://www.theifab.com/laws/fouls-and-misconduct/chapters/direct-free-kick)
- Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
- Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
- Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off.
- Was the foul careless? (i.e. lack of attention or consideration)
- If careless, was the foul Trifling? (i.e. not serious and calling it would disrupt the flow of the game, spectator enjoyment, etc.)
- Was the foul reckless? (i.e. disregard to the danger to, or consequences for and opponent)
- Was the foul done with excessive force? (i.e. exceeds the necessary use of force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent)?
We had an AR that wasn't keeping pace with the last defender and pretty much stayed near the 18. One or our parents was yelling at him a bit. After reading much of what is said I have more sympathy for him. At least we had 3 referees. Even at the 18 he could see offside pretty accurately, and I do believe it was his 3rd game of the day and heat and exhaustion would be playing a big part in his energy.
Keep my mouth shut is what my wife constantly reminds me, and I must adhere to this.
The official line is that AR's need to keep pace with the players.
The reality is that AR's need to gauge their ability to keep pace and their current fatigue level (especially when doing 3-4 games) and position themselves in a way that allows them to effectively do their job. Most AR's cheat by watching the play, team with possession, distance between defenders and strikers, and positioning themselves in a location that is consistent with where the players will likely be when a potential offside call will need to be made. Sitting on the 18 isn't good, but I would rather have an AR that cheats forward of the play than hopelessly behind the play.
There are a lot of nuances that you only understand if you have been on the whistle or an AR.
Example from our game, where I believe the ref made the wrong call. I didn't flip out on him. I asked him to confirm at halftime what I thought he call and he confirmed. No need to get upset at something that happened 20 minutes earlier.
Ball in the other teams Penalty Area. Ball hits a girls outstretched hand. Ref puts whistle to mouth. Ball falls to our players foot. Ref takes whistle out of his mouth and says "play on."
My understanding is that you never play "Advantage" on a handling call in the box. We wound up losing by a goal. This play was not the reason we lost, but it might have helped to have a PK early in the game.
Ref also let a lot of fouls to early in the game and tightened up a lot in the last 25 minutes. I thought he called a decent game, but interrupted the flow a bit more than I would have liked.
(My parents were freaking out over a few missed throw-ins. I dont ever get upset about throw ins. Count to 5 and the other team wins the ball anyway).
SitByMyself
BRONZE
This is the most accurate statement I've heard in a long time. My teenagers aged 13 and 17 are refs. There is such a shortage they can ref every weekend if they wanted to. Guess what? It's great money for a teenager but they hate it. They don't like getting yelled at. Imagine that? They are out there in the hot sun doing multiple games with little break and they are good kids trying their best. They will only do younger games and now only want to be AR's. They've had obnoxious parents try to show them video of their mistakes during their precious 10 minute break! Just last weekend my son got screamed at by a parent because they only had 2 refs. Yes, it wasn't good. But he's just a kid who showed up to the field he was assigned to. He gave her the phone number of the person who contacted him to ref and sent her to the field marshal. The field marshal was Another teenager who had no idea what to do so the parent went nuts. I'm a soccer parent too so I get it. We pay a lot of money for these tournaments/league games and want a quality product. But If we as parents (consumers of a product) want to grow the ref pool so everyone gets better refs we need to be more considerate of the ones we are training. There is a huge shortage of refs so we shouldn't be scaring off the youth referees. Treat them with a little respect and understanding.
I've agreed with most of what you've said up to now. But here's where I disagree and it's probably the lawyer in me. One reasonable persons interpretation of what is "disregard to the danger to, or consequence for an opponent" might differ from another's. I could even build a case that says a keeper's charge always to some extent disregards the danger to or consequences to a striker. And no parents are going to weed into the notes. That's one of the problems with the laws. They read like many of our day to day laws do, which not only require reading the laws, but also the court precedents and interpretations thereof. That's not a readily accessible system of governance. So I'm sympathetic with refs who say the parents don't even bother reading the laws. I'm also sympathetic to the parents that say the laws don't make any sense.
Eagle33
PREMIER
@MWN
I am well aware how this all works. All I'm saying that there is no requirements by the leagues to have more than 1 referee on any of the games. At U-littles AND U-olders it could be 1 referee or 2 or 3, as long as Diagonal System is used - basically 1 whistle. 1 referee can have 2 club linesman (parents from the team) that allow to call ball in-out of bound ONLY - no Offside.
You are 100% correct, Cal South doesn't want to use and don't want to even hear about using Dual System, or 2 whistles. It would help to not only cover more games but also will allow for existing referees to cover more games, since it would require a lot less running per game.
Here is the breakdown for Referee fees in SCDSL this year and it clearly does not state a minimum of 3 referee for 9v9 or any age group.
Surfref
PREMIER
I refereed 5 games Saturday (2 9v9 games with two centers and 3 U16-19 games with one center) and 4 games Sunday (U17-19 games with 2 centers). Exhausted would be an understatement for how I felt Sunday evening and I am still rehydrating today since I have three adult games tomorrow evening. On the three 90 minutes games I ran 5.8, 6.9 and 7.2 miles. What people forget about is the mental fatigue. Just going out and running 6-7 miles around San Diego Bay is easy and relaxing for me. The difficult part is running that distance while processing a soccer game. As a CR I have to process how the players are playing, formation, foul or no foul, advantage, style of play offense and defense, paying attention to what the players are saying, individual player styles and skill level, subs, injuries, etc. I also have to process what my ARs are telling me with both verbal and nonverbal cues. As an AR, I may only run 3-4 miles in a 90 minute game but I am still mentally processing almost as much as the CR. What makes it worse for me is I get a lazy referee on my crew. The rest of the crew has to pick up his slack. I would rather have an inexperienced ref than a lazy ref. At least with the inexperienced AR I can instruct them on what I want and don't want them to help me with. Most new referee's do not realize actually how far they will run in a game or consider the mental aspect of being a referee. Now, throw into the equation the coach and parents yelling at you and questioning your decisions. Most youth referee's are not mentally prepared to process a fast paced soccer game and catch crap from the sidelines. I am surprised that more youth referee's don't drop out after their first year.
If those parents and some coaches continue to belittle and question the referees, especially the new ones, there will continue to be a referee shortage
Are there lazy or bad refs? Yes. Most experienced refs know the lazy ones, slow ones, don't give a shit ones, ones that are just in it for the cash, and the flat out bad ones. Do I enjoy working with them, usually not but I still try to provide them with some mentorship.
Maybe bad choice of words, let me rephrase..."Parents aren't required to implement the LOTG". Like I said, which you obviously missed, I think its important for me to know the laws of the game. But whether or not a parent knows the LOTG, has no impact on the Ref's ability to do his job. A parent abusing a ref is wrong whether the parent knows the LOTG or not. Whether the parent is right or wrong about a call is meaningless. An incompetent ref is no better than an abusive parent. Yes, it would be nice if more parents knew every single rule and intepretation of the game, circuit and tournament (which they aren't paid to do) but if you think that will change a chirping parent to a quiet chair sitter then I have some waterfront property in Houston for you (too soon?). Here's the thing, the problem parents are the ones who think they know the rules and are in full compliance with item 1 of Code of Conduct.
GraceT brings up an excellent point regarding accessibility of the rules of the game. How are parents expected to "Learn and respect the rules of soccer and the rules of the CYSA-South" when many of the rules aren't made available to parents. I hear time and time again from Refs here that some rule is in place that contradicts published rules. They state that they heard it at a meeting or read it somewhere, but when asked to provide evidence its crickets. There seems to be a whole black box of unwritten rules, which so be it, but don't put the expectation on the parents to know every rule when that's what Ref's are paid for.
I see the common comment from Refs about how it would be so much better without parents and make parents out to be the enemy. Those refs seem to forget their commitment to ensure "spectator enjoyment" of the game.
GunninGopher
SILVER ELITE
I had a similar situation in a game Saturday. A player was in an off-side position, heading toward the half, when the ball was played up. The player crossed into his own half, turned around and ran up field again to be the first to play the ball. The 15 year old youth AR correctly raised her flag, I blew the whistle and the coach went ape-shit. I explained that the player was in an offside position when the ball was played and was called when he became involved in the play.
The coach said that he came into his own half and therefore was 'reset' and wasn't off-side anymore. I said that he was wrong but I'm not going to argue with him about it.
I hope that he evaluates my performance in that match and includes every detail of the exchange. He seemed just fine with my performance except for that 1 instance of my incompetence.
I came back to soccer when my child got involved, having never played beyond the age of 11. The game is a lot more enjoyable to watch when you understand the laws and how referees are instructed to apply them.
If you want to improve the level of referee performance I would suggest the following:
EVERY competitive player is required to obtain a grade 8 or 9 referee license (depending on the age of the player) during their 1st year of competitive play. The player is then required to referee a minimum of 4 games (2 as a CR and 2 as an AR). The referees would not be paid for these games; this is part of the "cost" of being a competitive player. The referees would be utilized for local rec or AYSO games. This would increase the players' knowledge of the rules. This would allow for the players to gain an understudying of how & why the games are called the way they are, and this would hopefully encourage parents to be more patient with the referees since their kid is going to have to referee some games. Over time this should increase the pool of eligible referees (start them young) and it would increase the overall game knowledge for everyone hauling heir kids out to games.
My daughter and her teammate volunteered to referee some local AYSO games this weekend. I can tell you:
1 - they made mistakes
2- they got better each 1/4 that they refereed (AYSO has 1/4s at this age)
3 - they have a better understanding of the rules today than they did on Friday
4 - they have more appreciation for the work of referees
5 - they learned how to deal with a coach who didn't like how they called the game
6 - it was a good experience, they want to do it again, and they were learning to be more assertive with parents/coaches that didn't like the calls.
EVERY competitive player is required to obtain a grade 8 or 9 referee license (depending on the age of the player) during their 1st year of competitive play. The player is then required to referee a minimum of 4 games (2 as a CR and 2 as an AR). The referees would not be paid for these games; this is part of the "cost" of being a competitive player. The referees would be utilized for local rec or AYSO games. This would increase the players' knowledge of the rules. This would allow for the players to gain an understudying of how & why the games are called the way they are, and this would hopefully encourage parents to be more patient with the referees since their kid is going to have to referee some games. Over time this should increase the pool of eligible referees (start them young) and it would increase the overall game knowledge for everyone hauling heir kids out to games.
My daughter and her teammate volunteered to referee some local AYSO games this weekend. I can tell you:
1 - they made mistakes
2- they got better each 1/4 that they refereed (AYSO has 1/4s at this age)
3 - they have a better understanding of the rules today than they did on Friday
4 - they have more appreciation for the work of referees
5 - they learned how to deal with a coach who didn't like how they called the game
6 - it was a good experience, they want to do it again, and they were learning to be more assertive with parents/coaches that didn't like the calls.
@watfly, unless a parent has read the IFAB (Law of the Game) they have not complied with the Code of Conduct. There is only 1 source for the official laws. The beauty here is if they had actually read the Laws of the Game they would understand that a fundamental Law of the Game is that you don't challenge the Referee's decision:
Law 5
The answer to every single question or challenge to a referee's call or non-call during a game that get's spectators all riled up is: "Clearly it was in the Referee's opinion that the facts observed by the Referee did/did not warrant a different call."
This doesn't mean that a different referee, in a different position, or on a different day or the same referee in a different game would make the same call. One of the things the referee's are asked to do is to make "no call" when an careless foul is trifling.
Law 5
1. The authority of the referee Each match is controlled by a referee who has full authority to enforce the Laws of the Game in connection with the match.
2. Decisions of the referee Decisions will be made to the best of the referee`s ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game.
The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected.
The referee may not change a decision on realising that it is incorrect or on the advice of another match official if play has restarted or the referee has signalled the end of the first or second half (including extra time) and left the field of play or terminated the match. If a referee is incapacitated, play may continue under the supervision of the other match officials until the ball is next out of play.
The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected.
The referee may not change a decision on realising that it is incorrect or on the advice of another match official if play has restarted or the referee has signalled the end of the first or second half (including extra time) and left the field of play or terminated the match. If a referee is incapacitated, play may continue under the supervision of the other match officials until the ball is next out of play.
The answer to every single question or challenge to a referee's call or non-call during a game that get's spectators all riled up is: "Clearly it was in the Referee's opinion that the facts observed by the Referee did/did not warrant a different call."
This doesn't mean that a different referee, in a different position, or on a different day or the same referee in a different game would make the same call. One of the things the referee's are asked to do is to make "no call" when an careless foul is trifling.