US SOCCER

Discussion in 'SoCalScene' started by Dominic, Jun 26, 2018.

  1. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    No, no, no and no. The real reason the US men's soccer team didn't qualify for the 2018 World Cup is because the players that were chosen for that team did not represent the "best" US National players. Bruce "go with what I know" Arena chose MLS players instead of the better and more qualified US nationals playing Internationally. Articles like this simply demonstrate the idiocy of sports writers in America and the fact we are blind to the level of substandard play the MLS represents compared to International soccer.

    Here is the USMNT that played against Trinidad Tobago and lost:
    25 Players - 15 that play in the MLS and 8 that play Internationally.

    Here is the USMNT that played against Ireland and France and took France to a draw:
    https://www.ussoccer.com/mens-national-team/latest-roster#tab-1
    24 Players - 4 that currently play in the MLS and 20 that play Internationally.

    With regard to the rosters for Trinidad and then France:

    Starting 11 for the USMNT against Trinidad Tobago (MLS players in Red):

    USA: Howard; Yedlin, Gonzalez, Besler, Villafaña; Nagbe, Bradley, Pulisic, Arriola; Altidore, Wood.

    Speaking of that French game (https://www.ussoccer.com/matches/mnt/2018/20180609-mnt-vs-france#tab-1), there was no question that the US wasn't at the same level from a time of possession and shot differential, but did well enough that is soccer.

    The lads that actually played the game (note, MLS players are in Red):
    USA: 12-Zack Steffen; 18-Shaq Moore (2-DeAndre Yedlin, 74), 5-Cameron Carter-Vickers, 3-Matt Miazga (14-Erik Palmer-Brown, 57), 21-Tim Parker, 17-Antonee Robinson (19-Jorge Villafaña, 82); 4-Tyler Adams, 20-Wil Trapp (capt.), 6-Weston McKennie; 16-Julian Green (8-Joe Corona, 70), 7-Bobby Wood (13-Josh Sargent, 74)
    Substitutes: 1-Bill Hamid, 11-Tim Weah, 15-Eric Lichaj, 23-Rubio Rubin

    So what we can reasonably conclude based on the rosters and results is that playing no more than 4 MLS players might get us a tie against top competition. Playing 6 or more MLS players and we lose. It therefore follows that since the players on the field are the ones that actually play the game (not youth academy players) that building a USMNT from International professional players is good, more than a few MLS players is bad.

    The bigger lesson here is that the MLS is only as strong as its weakest link. Our National Team is as strong as its weakest links. The players train and play against each other. We have great talent in the MLS and that talent is wasted and doesn't improve at the same level versus our talent that moves to International level 1 teams/play.

    Croatia, a country of 4 million (same size as the City of Los Angeles) can field a World Cup semi-finalist team because its National team players are forged in top level leagues with top level player that play top level competition.

    Good news, is we now have a GM (Ernie Stewart, a soccer guy with significant international experience), we have a new President that appreciates what he doesn't know (Gulati was delusional and a legend in his own mind) and we will have a coach that understands the MLS is a B or C level league from an international perspective and will encourage US nationals to go play with the big boys Internationally.
     
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  2. timbuck

    timbuck

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    Thank you. Promotion / Relegation sounds great to the soccer purists. But I feel it would mean the collapse of MLS (some may say this is a good thing). It would put pro soccer in the US even further behind until it catches up again.
    There just isn’t the community support of 2nd and lower tier soccer. Especially in markets that already have an MLS team. The OC Blues (I think this is the team that plays at the great park) aren’t going to sell out stadiums. In some smaller markets, without MLS teams you will get decent attendance. Much like you will for a minor league baseball team. But it’s more of a novelty than anything. If ticket prices for Detroit FC increase to a level of other sports and there is no superstar player- those stands will be empty.

    Now transfer fees and training compensation could have s serious impact on soccer in the US. But likely not for a long time.
     
  3. InTheValley

    InTheValley Bronze

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    What is the point again? To make up the least realistic way to make the US better at soccer? I thought I did pretty well with my NFL idea, other than it seems more realistic than the Albion empire saving American soccer.

    I get your point. Your point is that money grows on trees, although you call them “sponsors.” Of course the economics of fantasyland aren’t complicated. They’re whatever you want them to be.
     
  4. InTheValley

    InTheValley Bronze

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    I think you forgot the land value when you did your property assessment, boss.

    That fact about Minnesota selling slightly more tickets than the Quakes would be a really brilliant assessment except for the fact that the average Quakes ticket is almost 3x that of a ticket in Minnesota. Why don’t you try out a little math to figure which is better. I’ll give you a hint, which is it’s almost 3x better.
     
  5. coachsamy

    coachsamy

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    Yes because the federation had nothing to do with giving an extra home game to Costa Rica! And talking about that game, didn't Geoff Cameron got beat continuously on that game and caused Bruce to use Omar???
     
  6. coachsamy

    coachsamy

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    My point is that there is a difference between executives that expect to make 9 figures a year of a product than executives that will be happy with 7-8 figures a year and provide a quality product. MLS current system just protects greed on the top.

    Now Timmy was kind enough to point this out: "There just isn’t the community support of 2nd and lower tier soccer. "

    I got to say that you are not wrong by any means. We just disagree in different aspects of economy.
     
  7. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    The Costa Rica Game:

    USA: 1-Tim Howard; 19-Graham Zusi (18-Jordan Morris, 84), 20-Geoff Cameron, 14-Tim Ream, 2-Jorge Villafaña (8-Clint Dempsey, 65); 10-Christian Pulisic (21-Paul Arriola, 87), 6-Darlington Nagbe, 4-Michael Bradley (capt.), 23-Fabian Johnson; 9-Bobby Wood, 17-Jozy Altidore
    Subs not used: 12-Brad Guzan, 22-Nick Rimando, 3-Omar González, 5-Matt Besler, 7-DaMarcus Beasley, 11-Alejandro Bedoya, 13-Dax McCarty, 15-Eric Lichaj, 16-Kellyn Acosta
    Head coach: Bruce Arena


    5 MLS players started that game and during play, 2 International players were replaced with 2 MLS players. Thus, MLS 7 and International 6. So, yes. We have to find a way to limit the mediocre MLS influence on the National Team.

    Ironically, Klinnsman understood what the players needed ... stay in International leagues:

    The Mass Return Of USMNT Players To MLS Was A Catastrophic Mistake
    https://the18.com/soccer-news/jurgen-klinsmann-mls-criticism

    Klinsmann was involved in an infamous feud with MLS commissioner Don Garber following Dempsey’s decision to sign for Seattle and Bradley for Toronto.

    “[MLS] is getting better and stronger every year, which we are all very proud about, and I want everyone to grow in the environment,” said Klinsmann, “but the reality also is that for both players, making that step means that you are not in the competitive environment that you were in before.

    “I made it clear with Clint’s move back and [Bradley’s] move back that it’s going to be very difficult for them to keep the same level that they experienced at the places where they were. Reality is that both players making that step means that you are not in the same competitive environment that you were before. It’s not easy for Michael, and it’s not going to be easy in the future.”

    Let me try to draw an analogy to Youth Soccer:

    Premiere League and Division 1 Leagues across Europe are like CSL Premiere, SCDSL Champions, the DA, National League. The elite players are constantly playing and challenged by other elite players.

    The MLS is like CSL Silver, SCDSL Flight 2, Presidio AA-A, AYSO Matrix/United. The top players have an easy path. They are not challenged day-in and day-out. Their positions are secured and their skills stagnate.

    The USSF/MLS SUM deal means that the USSF is soft on the MLS (especially Sunil G.) because we are kinda partners from a marketing standpoint. When Klinnsman and Don Gerger (MLS Commish) had their war of words, the USSF didn't get behind Klinnsman and say "Preach it brotha." Instead it told Klinsmann to keep his trap shut for the good of the MLS.

    The MLS will improve over the next 10 to 20 years, but the players in the MLS that have talent must rethink their priorities and move to International play if our USMNT is going to improve and compete.
     
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  8. mahrez

    mahrez Silver

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    Now your comparing the bay area to Minnesota? Housing is what 4x, entertainment 3x, and so forth so what. The population density is much different so is the cost of living, so what? No comparsion, the bay area alone is worth more than the whole State of MN and almost everything is more expensive.
     
  9. Grace T.

    Grace T. Silver

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    I agree that in the short term the best solution is for Americans to play overseas but I point out there are barriers to having that happen. First, there's the fact that Europeans are skeptical of our players and are unlikely to give them the benefit of the doubt in trying out....breaking into that system is hard unless like Pulisic you've got some connections or have played there as a youth. Second, there's the language barrier. Third, there's the immigration barrier....in part because the US is tough on Europeans immigrating to the United States and working here the EU reciprocates. Pulisic holds dual citizenship with Croatia (wonder if he regrets not playing for Croatia now?) and so was able to avoid that trap, but otherwise a European team would have to use it's very limited exceptions to bring on an American and they've just been reluctant to do that unless they need someone in particular (like a goalkeeper) or that player is something truly outstanding and a proven value. Fourth, there's the tax barrier...the US treats income earned overseas as being earned here which (depending on the treaty with a country) can lead to double taxation as it will be taxed both by the country being played in and by the US (at a minimum, it requires hiring a tax lawyer to navigate). Fifth, some European leagues have local national quotas (formal and informal) which means again a slot to an American would be precious and not easily given away. So in some ways this is easier said than done. Long term (I agree the short term is a lost cause) our biggest hope is reforming the MLS.

    Two minor quibbles with your post: I don't think Howard would count as MLS given his extensive experience both playing overseas and with the US National Team (I'd have marked him mixed, or should have been disqualified for other reasons such as his age and that his style of play is no longer current)...also AYSO United plays within the various leagues and while they couldn't play DA theoretically they can play gold.
     
  10. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    @Grace T. , yes and no.

    1. Disagree. Europeans are not skeptical in as much as they don't want to deal with the hassels that come with non-EU Country passport holders that are minors. FIFA's Article 19 anti-child trafficking provisions make it near impossible for U18's to train and play for European academies. The 2 main exceptions are EU passport holder (Pulisic and Lederman); or parents are in EU working for a totally non-soccer related reason.

    Its a business for these guys and they want the best of the best whether the kid is from Arizona or Mozambique.

    2. Language barrier is not that significant for English speakers as most Europeans and Latin American's know a little english.

    3. See 1, above. Its not an immigration barrier as a FIFA Article 19 problem.

    4. Tax implications are minor to non-existant. US Citizens earning income abroad have two tax reductions, these are the "Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE)" and the "Foreign Tax Credit." Basically, US Citizens are going to pay no more than they would have if they earned the income in the US. So no double tax problem that would cause them to pay more ... unless they are being tax at a rate higher by their host country, then they pay that tax but not US tax.

    5. True, quotas exist, but the top level talent always has a seat at the table.

    AYSO matrix/united/??? - I know you are an AYSO gal, so lets just agree that there are always some teams that are just great and AYSO United may have a team or two that can play at the Gold or Premiere level, but the vast majority of AYSO United teams are Bronze to Silver (aka Flight 3 or 2). See, https://coastsoccer.us/web/coastsoccer/clubs?YEAR=2017&CLUB=611&Send+Form=Go! and https://coastsoccer.us/web/coastsoccer/clubs?YEAR=2017&CLUB=982 and https://coastsoccer.us/web/coastsoccer/clubs?YEAR=2017&CLUB=983

    Howard doesn't count as a European player because (1) he was playing in the MLS and (2) he would have been out of work if still in Europe and frankly should have never been on the USMNT as his time had passed as a USMNT player. He left Europe to go back the US where he would have a job. We have better US National's playing in Europe that should have been between the sticks and arguably, if they were the results might have been different. Indeed, Howard is the perfect example of our F'up from a rostering point of view. If you can't cut it in Premiere or Champions league then you should be ineligible for the USMNT.
     
  11. Grace T.

    Grace T. Silver

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    great point about the trafficking rules. I wasn’t aware. But it sets up an thorny chicken and egg problem. I think we both concur that for Europe to take a chance on a player that player has to be more than mls caliber (ie something special). But how then does the player get to be good enough to be considered if they don’t hold a European passport? It’s kinda like my first exec job: I’d do a great job but had no experience, but how do I get the experience if no one would hire me.

    The tax issue varies from country the country depending on treaty and for high earners the deduction is capped. I had to do a stint in the UK for a bit and it was a tax nightmare. My sibling did one in Spain which was harder immigration wise but easier re taxes. There’s also the issue of us nationals opening bank accounts— because of the money laundering provisions put in place after 9 11, foreign banks make it difficult to open accounts unless you hold an eu passport.
     
  12. InTheValley

    InTheValley Bronze

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    What are you even talking about? You claimed that Quakes are going bankrupt because they sell fewer tickets than Minnesota. I simply pointed out that you’re a moron because ticket sales are irrelevant to your argument. Instead, it’s revenue from those sales that helps determine whether a company makes money.

    The price of land has nothing to do with anything, other than its appreciating far faster in SJ, which doesn’t exactly help your argument. And the cost of living has nothing to do with whether a team turns a profit or loss. Do you want to know something that isn’t 3x as expensive in SJ, though? Team payroll. In fact, Minnesota has a higher payroll than the Quakes. The Quakes are raking in 3x the ticket revenue with lower payroll, which is really something. They’ve also got land interests that are far more valuable than Minnesota and which are appreciating far more quickly.
     
  13. mahrez

    mahrez Silver

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    Nope your arguing with yourself like you have with others in this thread.

    Quakes are a money losing operation and have been for many years, their parent company sandstone has been keeping them afloat. The stadium sponser is bankrupt and haven't been paying there licensing fees, contributing to the finanical losses. MLS has been losing mutiple millions ever year for 20+ with no end in sight, deep pocket parent companies and rich individual familes have keep the league going even when teams like Chivas USA lost a estimated 50 million over ten yrs before the league stepped in and took over.

    If you learn to comprehend or read better we can continue. MU a 2nd year small market team outdraws quakes like i mentioned. End of story, but you cant let it go & mentioned ticket prices, payrolls, etc because you have nothing else to contribute but more BS. Do you ever post anything of value or just more of this nonsense like NFL.
     
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  14. jrcaesar

    jrcaesar Silver

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    Up 'til now, most AYSO kids who would otherwise enable an AYSO team to reach Gold leave for other clubs. The new structure will keep teams and families together longer, which is good overall. But eventually the mandatory 50% playing rule is going to kick in and the teams either won't have their stars playing enough minutes or Players 6-16 will be interchangable ... but not quite good enough to compete vs. Gold teams where all 14 players are Good+, and they are playing heavy minutes. (That's the difference I see between Silver and Gold - Silver teams have 6-8 really good players, Gold teams have 12.) The road to Gold and Premiere is stacked against them.
     
  15. InTheValley

    InTheValley Bronze

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    I only post the facts and the truth. Whine all you want, but I’m just describing what is actually happening in the real world, and why. You’re fawning over P/R like you’re looking at a photo of Kate Upton and rubbing one out. No matter how badly you want them, though, both will only ever be fantasies. Neither your wife nor the MLS are very glamorous, that is true, but they’re what is real and the best you’re ever gonna get.
     
  16. Zdrone

    Zdrone Bronze

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    Wait, someone else does this?

    I need a new Sports Illustrated
     
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  17. Justafan

    Justafan Silver

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    I swear to f’n god, this thread has the longest f’n posts of all time! I’ve tried to follow a couple of times, stroll down a little bit, see the length of the posts, and say F’ this crap, it’s not with it and on to the next thread.
     
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