SoCal Soccer Attitude Change

Discussion in 'SoCalScene' started by Sentient Being, Sep 16, 2016.

  1. Sentient Being

    Sentient Being SILVER

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    Here we go again, every year it's the same thing. Let's bash all the refs!! They're fat, lazy, don't know the rules, egotistical, bad knees, out of shape......

    You guys, ( and I'm talking to the thousands of people on this forum) but really I'm talking to YOU... Why don't you do something about it. You know the the rules, your in shape, your in the prime of your life. Your a male between the age of 35-50, you have weekends off and are a reliable, intelligent guy. Why don't you step up and become a ref!! Why don't you step up and help foster this fledgling game of soccer here in the USA that you all believe should be a the same level as the European nations. Step up, give up your weekends, go run around in the heat, on crappy fields and listen to guys like you yell at you for 4 hours a day for basically minimum wage. Why don't YOU step up and become a ref??

    Oh, I know why you don't....because you're all family men. Basically good guys with a couple of kids at home. You love your kids and enjoy spending time with them. So much so in fact, that you dont have the desire to give up some of the best memories your ever going to have with them. You would rather watch your kids play sports every weekend!! Who wouldn't!!! I don't blame you, I do the same thing!! We would all rather sit back and spend the fleeting moments that we have with our children watching them play sports, than have somebody else carpool our kids to a game while we go voluntarily ref somebody else's kids 30 miles in the opposite direction. It's understandable and nobody can blame you for being a great parent...

    But...lets stop bashing the men and women who do give up their weekends of watching their kids, family and loved ones play their games!! They do sacrifice a lot to make sure your little Johnny can get his game in. They are in the sun all day, running up and down bumpy fields with no shade. (Have you ever tried running on a crappy field with goffer holes and never looking down to see where you are stepping because you are watching the ball so you don't make a mistake - ITS NOT EASY!). I have yet to see anybody offer a ref a nice cold bottle of water to cool down during the run of play when it's a hundred or an orange slice at half.

    So... Here's my point: since the majority of the primary ideal work force ( AGES 35 - 50) for refs is sitting on the sidelines being good family men and women, watching THEIR kids play, why don't we stop bashing these refs. Let's show some compassion, be grateful there is somebody to pick up the slack so that you can get that great picture, have that celebratory lunch right after the game, analyze the shortcomings of the coach and other players on the team (that's for SoCalUnited), and spend time with team friends and family that has come to support your child.

    It's time to change our attitude towards refs, and look at why things are the way they are.....and be grateful for what we have.
     
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  2. watfly

    watfly GOLD

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    Unfortunately, club soccer has become a victim of its own "success"...it has gotten so big that there are not enough competent refs, coaches, DOC's, board members etc. Comparatively speaking there is not a whole lot of supervision/accountability of these individuals. The parents fund this system and, rightly or wrongly, believe they have right to complain when someone that they are paying doesn't do their job and refs are an easy target. With a club or coach the parents can vote with there checkbook and move, not so with refs...so maybe that's why refs are subject to verbal abuse?

    There are legitimate issues with the quality of reffing in club soccer but unfortunately these issues get drowned out by the crazy parents that complain about everything. The legitimate issues are not about judgement calls made by the ref, but by refs that 1) either choose not to put in the effort or physically can't get in a position to stay up with the play and be in a position to make the call, and 2) refs that don't know the league or tourney rules that are posted for all to see(it seems that most are well versed in LOTG). The last 3 weeks has been particularly bad in this regard, but it wasn't great all summer. Is it too much to ask that Refs review the local rules before stepping on the pitch?

    I find it interesting that often when someone complains on this forum about something a ref did, ref's and others are quick to retort that we should take it easy on refs because they run up and down the field in terrible conditions for little pay, usually interlaced with an ad-hominem attack against the complainer. Yet when someone complains about a coach (which happens frequently), there isn't a coach or someone else that claims we should cut coaches slack because they have to deal with whiny kids with different personalities, parents that continually complain about playing time and position, and are continously running from field to field on game weekends, etc. at an hourly rate which is likely less than a ref's.
     
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  3. Sentient Being

    Sentient Being SILVER

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    There are 2 kinds of people in this world:
    Those who say "that's just how the world is".
    And those who say "the world is what we make it".

    I can see from your first sentence in your response watfly that you are a "that's just how the world is" kind of guy...
    You state because parents fund the "system", they "rightly" have the power to abuse referees!! I wonder how that philosophy translates in your household with your children and wife??
    How can anyone justify that any type of abuse as "right"???

    You also bring up "Whiney" kids. As a coach for many many years, I never met a "Whiney" kid, but I did meet a hell of a lot of adolescent "Whiney" parents...

    For the record, I am not a referee actively at this time, but I have been. Right now I am on the sidelines watching my kids play their final days of highly competitive successful soccer and enjoying every minute of it. And I appreciate every weekend that we can go to a game. So I sit back, take it all in and give thanks to those who provide for us to play in the best and most competitive gaming circuit in the country! From the referee associations, the schedulers, from Cal South, to SCDSL, CSL and the USSDA, from the local clubs we have been a part of and all the parents who come out on Friday nights to line a field or two!

    Hopefully we'll see you out there ON the pitch someday watfly....guiding our youth as a good referee...giving back to a sport which has given so much to you and yours.
     
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  4. ESPNANALYST

    ESPNANALYST SILVER ELITE

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    Actually he was the rationale one.
    Your argument is non sensical. At nowhere at any point did watfly suggest anything you mentioned.
    If someone is paid to a do a job they should do it well. The guy at Subway doesn't get a free pass because he's behind a counter all day. A trauma surgeon doesn't get a free pass on holidays because he gave his family time to work.
    Youth soccer is a business. Plain and simple. The ref are part of it. They should be held to standards - it's not that hard to suggest that.
    Your unicorn and light argument only works if they worked for free which last time I checked they didn't.
    I will be the change. I am looking at the Man in the Mirror this weekend.
     
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  5. ESPNANALYST

    ESPNANALYST SILVER ELITE

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    @watfly also agree the main issue is parents who haven't played or are unaware of the LOTG and therefore argue and create commotion. I agree with you whole heartedly about parent sideline behavior and general lack of knowledge of the game.
    The latest is "that should be a yellow/red"
    Your point was not in vain.
     
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  6. GunninGopher

    GunninGopher

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    Paid referees certainly should be held to standards, but I don't think that most the parents on the sideline are qualified to evaluate them. Every team my child has been a part of has some, frankly, ignorant comments made about the officiating. To be honest, many of them enjoy doing it. It is worth pointing out, however, they are in the minority.

    Many coaches are part of the problem. Some gripe about every call they think should have gone their way or was missed in an attempt to sway the referee. The parents and, regrettably, players feed off it it. Cripes, the whole point of a throw-in is to resume play. It isn't there to reward or penalize a team. On what appears to be a simultaneous touch (without the benefit of replay) in the middle of the field, it is embarrassing to see a coach throw a fit if the referee awards the all important throw-in, 50+ yards from either goal, to the other team.
     
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  7. baldref

    baldref GOLD

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    verbally attacking or yelling at referees when you "think" they made an incorrect call does nothing positive. a very high percentage of referees are competent, and know much more about the laws of the game, and soccer in general than the parents that want to criticize. but the main point is, the referee doesn't care who wins or loses. the parent does. this is called bias. when there is bias and ignorance of what they are actually watching, there is no excuse nor acceptance for making an ass of yourself yelling about the throw in you think you were slighted.

    that being said, there are poor referees. a very small percentage. if you yell at them and verbally abuse them, you're doing nothing. go through the channels necessary to report poor refereeing. the gaming league is where i would go. enough complaints to the organization that pays the referee association that hired the bad official might get results. but make sure you're not complaining that the referee got the throw in wrong three times. report them if they are abusive to players, continually mis apply the laws, or are too old or too out of shape to keep up with play in the level they are assigned to. yes there is a "good ole boys" mentality that protects the poor referee. but believe me when i say, the rest of us, the "competent referees, are just as eager to break through that protection and rid our ranks of someone that is truly not worthy of representing us, as you are.

    for the most part, just watch your kids play and enjoy it. if you think there was a foul that didn't go your way, so what? if you think the referee didn't call that handball in the box and shorted your team a cheap penalty call, so what? because of your bias, it's usually you who are "wrong", not the referee. just watch, enjoy, and cheer on your squad. that would make the game so much better for you and everyone around you.
     
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  8. SoccerFan4Life

    SoccerFan4Life SILVER ELITE

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    I record my kids soccer games and you will see how hard it is to make some of the calls that refs need to make in an instant. Everyone just needs to relax. It's ok to make a comment like "that was a foul or that was offsides". It's not cool to go crazy on berate a ref for a bad call. Nobody is going to ruin their life by a bad call. Personally I propose that there needs to be a tier so the best refs are used for championship games at gold level and above. Let's keep in mind that only a few kids will go pro and that's not worth much in terms of salary. Just enjoy the game and don't stress the small stuff.
     
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  9. watfly

    watfly GOLD

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    Wow, you actually went there. Typical "ad hominem" response to a post that is critical of refs, ironic considering you claim to be a Sentient Being. Why is it impossible to have a civil conversation about incompetent refs?

    As ESPNANALYST pointed out, I didn't say many of things you accuse me of. I never condoned the abuse of refs. Do I believe parents have the right to complain on a soccer forum about incompetent refs...yep. Do I believe parents have the right to demand competent officiating...absolutely. Was my comment about whiney kids a little aggressive...sure, my kids only whine at home and are angels for their coaches and teachers, go figure.

    As far as giving back to club soccer, I choose to write a check. As far as giving back to kids, I have chosen the last 10 years to serve on the board and raise money for an organization that provides programs to underprivileged children...for no compensation, just the pleasure of giving kids an opportunity they wouldn't have otherwise.
     
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  10. Sentient Being

    Sentient Being SILVER

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    Not sure you know how to apply the use of "Ad Hominem" correctly.. I was not attacking you personally at all. I was attacking your position of stating that "Abuse" of referee's in soccer is rightly or wrongly accepted, then relating your position to your personal life as a question.

    It is my opinion that there is no such thing as "right" abuse...it's ALL BAD...at every level. It shouldn't be tolerated by anyone, and hopefully your a strong enough man to stand up to it when you see it.

    Maybe upon reflection you and ESPNanalyst can be stewards of change this weekend and be a calming influence on the sidelines around you. I have always found meditation helps...slow deep breaths..stillness..silence.. (Visions of unicorns and light!!)
    See you boys on the pitch...and don't forget to thank a ref for their time..
     
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  11. BeepBeep Boop

    BeepBeep Boop SILVER ELITE

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    >Not sure you know how to apply the use of "Ad Hominem" correctly.. I was not attacking you personally at all.

    "Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

    >"I can see from your first sentence in your response watfly that you are a "that's just how the world is" kind of guy...I wonder how that philosophy translates in your household with your children and wife??"

    Ad hominem is exactly the right term to apply here. You make broad assumptions about his thought process, character, and family life based on a comment in an internet forum with no knowledge of any of these things, solely in an attempt to discredit his argument.

    "I was not attacking you personally at all."

    Yes you were. His family life is completely irrelevant to this conversation and you brought it up to make him seem like some sort of caveman whose opinion can't be trusted because he doesn't share the same world view as you.

    As far as your original post goes, I agree with you. I've been out there as an AR at the rec level and because of that I know EXACTLY how difficult the job is. I NEVER ride the refs and I agree that some parents (including those on my sideline) have limited knowledge of the LOTG and should read them before bitching at the refs.

    Out of the tens of thousands of kids playing right now only a handful will ever get paid to play professionally, so I agree, everyone needs to RELAX.
     
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  12. watfly

    watfly GOLD

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    One thing that I think would help the situation, other than civility from both sides, would be the positioning of the bench and the parents. I think all leagues and tourneys should have one team and its parents on one sideline and the other team and its parents should be on the opposite side. The parents should be to the left of the coach (or to the right of the coach in the rare instances when the CR places his AR's on the left side). This would solve a few problems, 1) the AR no longer has direct contact with the parents 2) the coach has better control over his/her parents behavior and 3) the CR is more likely to go directly to the coach re: parent behavior instead of engaging with parents regarding the merits of his/her call (as opposed to when the coach is on the other sideline).
     
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  13. espola

    espola DA

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    "I'm sorry, parents, but today we are scheduled to run a reverse diagonal, so you will all have to move to the other end of the field."
     
  14. watfly

    watfly GOLD

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    I wish I was joking but it happened a couple weeks ago, and that was just the tip of the iceberg.
     
  15. wildcat66

    wildcat66 SILVER

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    Once again people make a big deal out of nothing. In addition to enforcing the holy "laws of the game" , soccer referees have some opinion that they are responsible to enforce morality, and manners when it comes to the crowd. If you think American parents and spectators are passionate about soccer, try going to a game in South America or Europe. Refs need to get a little less concerned with what is said on the sidelines and concentrate on the people playing the game. If as a ref you have a problem taking some guff from fans/spectators/parents maybe you are in the wrong line of work. Most refs i watch do a good job, they miss some calls that they probably should get but hey for the most part they do the best they can. The ones that I find amusing is the ones that have no tolerance for any type of what they perceive as disrespect or questioning. They are more worried about whether someones shirt is tucked in or some parent yelled than if the player is out of bounds. I am one of the "let them play" types because I believe soccer is a contact sport and sometimes people get hurt. When my daughter complains of someone grabbing her shirt or pushing her in the back, I am the guy who says quit your whining and elbow her in the nose next time. I guess that makes me part of the problem..it a "beautiful game" not a rugby match or hockey...
     
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  16. Socal United

    Socal United SILVER ELITE

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    I completely agree. Most of the referees are fine and do as well as they can. I personally hate the coaches and parents on opposite sides, no matter what we try to do parents are like kids during games, without supervision they lose their minds. Nothing is going to change that. My issue is with those few that think they are all knowing. I am sure you are aware, presidio made that handy little one page paper on the rule changes for the 7v7. During the first half, I at first tried to help her out, as did the opposing coach. No change. At halftime, we both went out to her and I handed her the form they sent out. She looked it over, looked at us, then said "I will call the game like I want" and walked away. We both walked away laughing and went back to our team to go over the rules for the day. We are paying for a service and should expect it to be done properly. I rarely say anything to the refs as I am not really interested in them as I coach the littles and am focused on what they are doing. I can much more easily fix their mistakes than the refs and have way more to gain by doing so.

    If we could easily discard both the coaches and the refs that can't seem to do it right it would make the game so much better.
     
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  17. GunninGopher

    GunninGopher

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    My daughter's team does this. I love it. All teams should enforce this policy on themselves in competitions where the teams have their own sideline. It keeps the parents from making a problem for the coach by harassing the AR. Just sit on your bench's left side and enjoy the game. There are only 2 time's I'm aware of a right hand diagonal being utilized, although I'm sure there are others. In one field I am aware of, there is often a massive mud puddle just off the field that the AR would have to work in. In the other (not witnessed by myself) parents on that side were being jerks, so they flipped it for the second half. I hate to run right hand because I find myself out of position too often. I'm sure more experienced referees can deal better with it.
     
  18. baldref

    baldref GOLD

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    and another one who doesn't get it. the game is about the players. not their ridiculous parents who make them uncomfortable by making asses out of themselves. the ref should not have to "take guff" from anyone. it's poor manners, poor sportsmanship, and doesn't belong in youth sports. soccer referees are given tools, by the gaming leagues, tournaments, etc., and are told to deal with this. some do, some need to, and a slight number, very few, abuse it. just shut the hell up and let your child play. don't encourage them to be asses, by being an ass yourself.
     
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  19. wildcat66

    wildcat66 SILVER

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  20. wildcat66

    wildcat66 SILVER

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    You obviously don't know me, I maybe say ten words at a soccer game. I have never talked to a ref during a game in the 8 years or so that my kids have been playing. I don't even really like soccer to be honest because of the attitude of many in the sport. I am the guy that brings my kid, sits in my chair and watches and gets up and leaves when the game is over. i have been known to miss stuff that happens when i am reading the paper or checking my phone or chatting with someone from another game going on behind me. I am not one of the problem parents you guys have so much heartburn with. I think my total contact with my kids coach has been something like, "how u doing, hot today huh, or good game today." But, it doesn't take a soccer expert, or a referee card to see when a ref is so insecure or full of them self to let stuff go. All they do is make the situation worse. The problem with our society, we have turned into a bunch of candy asses who need to make sure that no one gets bullied or nobody gets their feelings hurt or disrespected. didn't your mamma ever tell you that "sticks and stones can break your bones but word can't hurt you?" I go to many high school football games, many of my neighbors and friend's kid's baseball games, the basketball tournaments, etc . I never see the officials worry about what the crowd says. Not once have I seen a football ref stop a game because someone in the bleachers was vocal about the call. I see it at youth soccer games all the time. I never encourage my kid to be an ass, in fact she knows better. Not once has she ever talked back or disrespected a ref, but she will not be a helpless victim either, who has to depend the the ref, a teacher or anyone else to protect her from harm. My daughter is a respectful warrior if anything else. I think you need to find another line of work bald ref, This kids soccer too rough for you. Some soccer mamma gonna question your manhood or something.....wow haven't typed that much since college
     
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