LA TIMES: Is youth soccer training to blame for American team failure to make WC?

Discussion in 'SoCalScene' started by Vin, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Chalklines

    Chalklines Bronze

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    money......money.....$$$$$$


    Belows an old sample from 2015

    http://www.americansocceranalysis.com/home/2015/1/26/visualizingmlssalaries

    League
    Average Median Yr
    MLS $226,454 $91,827
    NFL $1,900,000 $770,000
    MLB $3,818,923 $987,500†
    NHL $2,696,069 $2,000,000
    NBA $4,153,249 $1907,364

    Why bust your ass throughout your child hood and into your teens for penny's on the dollar compared to bigger american sports?

    What happens after a 3yr playing career and injury? 3 x $92k = $276k. If you didnt spend a dime your paying that money directly to a university now to get an education so your able to live. You cant retire on $276k at 23 years old.

    Bottom line money in mens and certainly womans soccer needs to increase dramatically in the US.
     
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  2. Sunil Illuminati

    Sunil Illuminati Bronze

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    Now I understand.....if it’s a sport that has competition from other countries it’s better to invest time in more traditional activities! It’s lucky for Messi and Ronaldo that their countries are not so focused on Basketball and Football I guess

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...e-worlds-highest-paid-athletes-list-2016/amp/
     
  3. watfly

    watfly Silver

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    I hope no one considers what they pay for youth sports as an investment in a college scholarship or professional career. Regardless of what the sport is they're all just variations of really horrible investments. That's awesome if your child ends up with a scholarship and/or a pro career, but just consider that a bonus to your child's sport's experiences growing up. A 529 plan is an investment, sports are not.
     
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  4. Lambchop

    Lambchop Bronze

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    Well if your average yearly temperature is 35 degrees, I guess you would spend a great deal of time playing a sport indoors. :)
     
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  5. timbuck

    timbuck

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    You become a coach. Coach 4 teams. Run a few summer camps. Do private training. You can make more than the salary of a low/mid level player. And get a bonus if you can pretend to have a British accent.
     
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  6. ballme

    ballme Bronze

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    Agreed with Davin. Check out “At All Costs”, a good documentary on Netflix about the rise of AAU / club basketball.
     
  7. Grace T.

    Grace T. Silver

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    If you read "Soccernomics" one of the conclusions is that you need to follow the money. The high performing clubs are legacy clubs (Manchester United, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich) that pull in talent based on their reputations, or clubs with big markets and a deep pocket owner (Chelsea, Arsenal). It leads to a lop sided situation where you have 2-3 teams that dominate their leagues, a handful that can hold their own and sometimes surprise, and the also rans.

    The MLS, because of the salary caps and pooled money, doesn't have teams that have consistently dominated the league. The structure is there to protect the owners instead of train players. The transfer structure isn't there either, and their academies have only recently gotten off the ground and are irregular throughout the league. It's going to be a huge problem for the Galaxy, for example, because even if they wanted to dump Gio, his DP status locks the Galaxy out of getting new high priced acquisition. One immediate reform they could implement is to remove the acquisition spend rules. It would mean, for example, if the Galaxy had a deep pocket owner that wanted to throw money at the team, they could acquire significant players from Europe...it may mean 1-3 teams would dominate the MLS, but it would also put an upward pressure on salaries since some players wouldn't be forced to take little because of the team bumping up against the cap. Right now players from Trinidad and Tobago benefit from the MLS caps in place because even at the low salary, they can retire back to Trinidad and exist comfortably for a bit on the money earned due to the lower cost of living....worst case they get a job coaching here. By contrast, Americans are reluctant to play because of the low salaries, and don't get the experience of playing with quality European professionals until those Europeans are past their prime and retire to the MLS. Forcing Americans to move to Europe to play is difficult because they are young, may have ties here already to family and friends, there's the language barrier, and the Europeans already have a full pipeline because of their academies...it's a good answer but not a great one.

    The other change would be to create a second MLS division, rather than continued expansion, and provide for relegation into/out of the second division. It would recognize that realistically college soccer (given the limited season) is not a stepping stone into the pros, would provide a wider base of opportunities with the possibility of promotion into the first league, and encourage owners to spend the money to avoid the fate of relegation (rather than reward them with draft picks).
     
  8. JJP

    JJP Silver

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    This argument is wrong, complete loser. Hand-eye coordination is so much easier to develop than foot-ball-eye coordination. In basketball, jumping ability and height is so critical because u can take to the air and shoot over defenders. As a defender, if u r short or can’t jump, u r a defensive liability. In soccer, the ball is at your feet, so height is not a huge advantage. You just have to be big enough where it’s not easy to push you off the ball. Center back and target 9 are really the only positions where height really matters, and there are plenty of exceptions to this rule in soccer.

    American football players, only WRs and CBs have the bodies that could cut it in soccer, the rest of the guys are too bulky and would not last 90 mins. on the pitch.

    Too much height and bulk is actually a disadvantage in soccer. You don’t want to carry extra weight for 90 minutes. The ideal soccer body looks like a combo of a cross country runner and sprinter, which is not what NFL or NBA bodies look like.

    American football and basketball, more than any other sports, rely on freak athleticism. There are tons of basketball and football players who picked up the sport late, but they were awesome anyway because they had great bodies. There’s no such thing as a great soccer player who started playing late. You have to start early, train a lot and play a lot through your youth to have any shot.
     
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  9. Josep

    Josep Bronze

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    There’s a guy in Southern California. He charges kids $100 for four sessions, one per week. At each session is roughly 8 kids. He does three hours of these sessions 4 nights a week.

    It’s all cash. That’s $600 per night, 4 nights a week. He’s pulling down almost $120k in cash working four nights a week. He long ago gave up club coaching. So no weekends. But he does go out and try to catch his kids’ games.

    Not a bad gig.
     
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  10. Simisoccerfan

    Simisoccerfan Silver

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    That hardly seems true. Just look at the math. Parents are paying this guy $25 per hour to train with 7 other kids? That's $1300 per year. Say he has an amazing retention rate and 80% of his slots are filled by return customers. To fill the other 20% he would need 250 kids to pay for his services in addition to the 77 kids paying him every month. That's a lot of kids and money.
     
  11. LASTMAN14

    LASTMAN14

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    If Josep is referring to the trainer I think he is referencing then quite possibly his number is a bit high per evening, but very possible with this individual. Not sure throughout the year he is hitting the number suggested. We have been to his training's and he does get the numbers. He does multiple sessions per day.
     
  12. MWN

    MWN Silver

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    I disagree with the argument that soccer athletes are fundamentally different than the athletes of football, baseball or hockey. Basketball does rely on height for most forward and center positions, but the guards are in play. At the professional levels every athlete in their chosen sport designs their body through weight training, core strength development, etc., based on the needs of the sport. If you are a 6'3" tight end, you build a body that is different than that of a 5'11" running back or that of a 6'2" tackle.

    As you point out, soccer is unique in that the skills needed to play at a high level (moving the ball with your feet) require years to develop ... 1,000's of touches, but if these freak athletes devoted the same amount of time in the school yard, parks, organized training, etc., to develop those skills then there is no reason our current crop of profession football, baseball and hockey players would not excel at soccer because their weight training would simply move from building mass needed for football to building leaner muscles needed for soccer.

    The money argument is sound. All of these freak athletes, especially the millions of disadvantaged kids ignore soccer as a sport because it doesn't represent the opportunity to hit the lottery that football, baseball, basketball and hockey do. What would happen if just 20% of these freak athletes focused on soccer, rather than football?

    Likewise, the negative cultural aspect of soccer in America argument is also sound because it is the root of our problem. Our kids don't value soccer, so they don't play in the school yard, the parks, etc., and only a few kids get the training needed.

    The lack of coaching knowledge is a sound argument because we waste talent with coaches that don't know how to develop a practice or effectively teach the game.

    In short, there are many reasons and many fixes that we need if we want our top athletes to play the game.
     
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  13. Tiki_Taka

    Tiki_Taka Bronze

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    First of all, most football players are bulky because their sport demands it. What we're talking about is the fact that our most athletic 6 to 9 yr old boys (before they get bulky) are gravitating to other sports besides soccer in the US. That's one of many fundamental problems. In terms of height, an overwhelming majority of professional players in Europe's top 5 leagues are above average in height. Messi aside, the top tier clubs generally have taller players when compared to MLS and second or third tier leagues.
     
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  14. timbuck

    timbuck

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    I agree...for now. But I think we are seeing a massive shift away from football. Between concussions and the rise (albeit gradual) of soccer being a bit more mainstream, you are going to see more uber-athletic kids playing soccer. Walk around the mall or an elementary school - I bet you see almost as many kids wearing some sort of pro soccer jersey/shirt/hat as you do wearing pro football team gear.
    I do think that having a stronger high school soccer system would drive more kids to want to play. As strange as it sounds, many teenage boys gravitate to whatever gets them attention from teenage girls. If high school soccer games were as popular as high school football games, you'd see more boys wanting to play soccer.
     
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  15. SBFDad

    SBFDad Bronze

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    I agree with this. This lends itself to the culture argument. These arguments about money and scholarships are kinda silly. Likely all of us on this forum are raising soccer players. Which one of you sat down with your family or with your kid early on and discussed the value of pursuing soccer from a college scholarship or pro career point of view? I certainly didn’t. Not when he was 6 and just starting out and not now as a young teenager about to enter high school. The reasons for the gravitation to other sports is about culture, not money.

    Sports for kids are a way of life around the world because they fulfill the basic need and desire to be a part of and excel at something, meeting both social and personal needs. Kids in the US become interested in other sports because those sports are more mainstream and identifiable, and honestly they are easier to be seen as “talented” in if you are a superior athlete. Soccer requires a different level of patience and a long-term commitment to become truly talented, even as a hyper athlete. Kids will many times gravitate to sports their friends or society see as important (social) and sports that they are perceived to be good at (personal). Soccer in this country will always be a step behind other nations because soccer is seen as “just another sport”, and it is at least 4 levels down the scale of importance...at least for now.
     
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  16. Grace T.

    Grace T. Silver

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    This is very true. Culture is very important. Was just at a park the other day where we saw dads practicing with their sons football, basketball, and baseball (DYS was the only one with a trainer practicing soccer). But money does have something to do with it too. Leave aside that the statistics show soccer success follows the programs where money is spent. Money comes in play 2 places: 1) when the parents are first directing their kids into a sport at the point where everyone sees their kid as the unique wunderkid...if you want them to be a pro athlete, money may influence that decision as does family history as to the kids body type, and 2) as others have pointed out, we do pretty well until the 18-19 year old range...the money to persuade boys to go pro just isn't there in the MLS and most upper middle class parent (since these are the families that have the money to afford pay-to-play, at least in the pre-DA years) will steer their kids to the safe choice of college over going to Europe, Mexico, or the lowpaying MLS. Upper middle class parents are risk averse anyways, so college is the logical choice for many. And while colleges are great at producing scholar-athletes, the training just doesn't compare to that the young adult would receive at an entry level pro team, for a variety of reasons including the limited season and the lack of exposure to international play. I think both sides are right: it's both the culture and the money, which makes this problem a big one. The culture will fix itself with time as kids who play have kids...the other requires serious reforms.
     
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  17. outside!

    outside! Silver

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    I agree, but you left out the female factor. Soccer is now one of the most popular girls high school sports. As I have said many times, when these women are parents, they will probably sign their kids up for soccer. At some point there will be an inflection point and the critical mass of youth soccer players will make soccer THE single most popular youth sport. After that, it is only a matter of time until it is simply the most popular American sport.
     
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  18. ATRTDT

    ATRTDT Bronze

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    The women need to make more. They are getting paid burger king salary's. $38,000 - $72,000 a year is slave wages for what they do and nothings being done but we have fast food workers pushing for $18-20 hr to flip burgers and our state and citys keep meeting demands for increases???????

    Somethings not right.

    40 x $20 = $800 x 52 = $41,600
     
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  19. MWN

    MWN Silver

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    Its right and makes perfect sense given the economics of woman's team sports. There is no profitable woman's team sport league in the U.S. (e.g. basketball, soccer, hockey, etc.). They all lose money and exist for purely marketing reasons. $41.6k to pay players that will not make the club/league any money is bad business if profits are the goal.

    How much should the women be subsidized? The fast food worker argument is rubbish because they work for a profitable enterprise and the free market economy works in their favor. Your better argument is to look at what bankrupt business pay their employees. Woman's MLS is a money loosing proposition, has and never will make a profit in the U.S.

    The national team is a different story. Its profitable and the national team players are paid well, assuming they win (top 5 women make over 1.1 million). The national team is an excellent investment for U.S. Soccer, but paying women to play soccer at the pro level is a money losing proposition and charity. Heck, the MLS is still a money losing proposition and will be for quite some time.

    See, https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/...atedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

    I suggest not bringing women's soccer into any discussion of men's soccer because it detracts from the economic realities of soccer in the U.S.
     
  20. Lambchop

    Lambchop Bronze

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    The women have generated more revenue than men's soccer in 2015, 2016 and appears 2017 as well but alas are way below the men in compensation!
     
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