LA TIMES: Is youth soccer training to blame for American team failure to make WC?

Discussion in 'SoCalScene' started by Vin, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Chalklines

    Chalklines Bronze

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    Forget food service. Min wage will be $20 hr in LA shortly.

    Your telling me paying these women min wage is too much?
     
  2. Dr. Richard Hurtz

    Dr. Richard Hurtz Bronze

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    USA is only good at identifying athletes. USA hasn’t learned how to identify soccer players yet. That’s because soccer players have higher intelligence then a Forrest Gump who runs fast with the football. Soccer is so so much more than being a good athlete. Socccer is freedom.. a player on the pitch can do whatever he likes; move wherever he wants. There’s no one calling out plays from upstairs or coaches calling for a time out to discuss things over. It’s two teams each with eleven players doing whatever the hell they want.. and an Iniesta or Ronaldinho, Zindane, Messi, Ronaldo will out smart you every time. Until America stops looking for athletes and starts looking for intelligent players only then will we be able to compete with the rest of the world. And that’s what a true soccer player is “intelligent “.
     
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  3. JJP

    JJP Silver

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    You sound like a really smart guy, but you are incorrectly assuming freak abilities transfers to soccer, and soccer is a unique sport precisely because athletic ability from other sports doesn’t transfer so easily to soccer.

    What makes the NBA athletes freaks? Their size, length and explosiveness. If you look at the dimensions of top basketball players, their arms and legs are longer. NBA athletes, if they played soccer, would have huge strides. But when dribbling with the ball, huge strides are actually a minus, it’s the ability to run with the ball in tight spaces that makes a good dribbler, and the body dimensions required for tight dribbling skills are different than the body dimensions of NBA players. Most great dribblers have shorter legs and run with high knees so they can use their knee-elbow combo to shield the ball and hit the ball high to low to put backspin on it. It’s a highly inefficient running style and uses tremendous energy and creates a different type of muscular development. Soccer players legs look different than basketball players legs. It is also for this reason that taller players rarely dribble. Carrying extra weight and running in the inefficient soccer dribbling style takes too much out of the bigger player.

    How many great basketball players are 6’1”? Very few. How many great soccer players are 6’1” or shorter? So many, practically all of them, and it seems like Jose Mourinho wants to collect all of the players taller than 6’1” on Manchester United.

    There are probably some point guards in the NBA that could have been great soccer players, but guys like LeBron could only play the 3, 4 or target 9.

    The same goes for NFL players. There is no distance running in the NFL. Its all short sprints followed by rest. There is no rest for a soccer player. You are either sprinting or jogging into position to sprint again. The NFL is loaded with fast twitch players, guys who are capable of extremely fast sprints but then require a rest to recover their fast twitch muscles. In contrast, scientific studies have shown that soccer is the ONLY team sport where the athletes have less fast twitch muscle than the average man on the street. Basically, soccer is loaded with the subset of humans who are fast without excessive fast twitch muscle. I would guess some NFL cornerbacks could be pretty good soccer players, but most would not come anywhere close to being able to run the full 90 minutes, so I actually believe most NFL players would not cut it as soccer players except as a 9, because nobody expects a 9 to play a full game because once their sprint speed slows down they get subbed out. International soccer allows 3 subs but in practice it’s really 2 subs plus the 9 because once a 9 gets tired he can’t score. I don’t think it’s coincidence that Lukaku stopped scoring for Man U. when Mourinho failed to sub him out for 10+ straight games.

    I’ve already told you, what makes NBA and NFL freaks, length, size and loads of fast twitch just doesn’t translate to soccer. And there is plenty of money in soccer. The top soccer players are making assloads of cash. Off the field marketing for soccer is greater than any other sport because it is the most popular sport in the world. I’m pretty sure C. Ronaldo makes more money off the field in terms of endorsements than any other athlete.

    I really think what makes great players is someone with athletic ability, a good balance of fast twitch and slow twitch muscles, reasonable size (not small but don’t have to be a giant), and love for the game. You have to love the game to do the countless hours of practice and drilling to be great, and you have to love the game to watch countless hours of games to develop your soccer IQ. There are a lot of NFL and NBA players who don’t love their game, watch zero film on their own, but it doesn’t matter because of their athletic freakishness. That never happens in soccer. The best players are always the guys that played all the time.
     
  4. Round

    Round Bronze

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    It's funny how much all of these words sound like all of the words us stupid parents have been writing on this forum for years.

    I'm pretty sure we as a country were doing better before little kid soccer was monetized. Parents weren't spending hours driving for games and practices unless they lived where there were no options. Grown men in track suit and Fahrenheit were isolated to selling salad shooters at the fair or fronting digital camera stores. Things were better.

    DA for boys has done nothing for anyone but those track suit wearers. We have troubles right here in River City they said. Now look at it, we aren't special. They made a musical about how stupid we are and were. Time for a new musical.

    Instead of ending it, we have allowed them to expand girls? We are fools and we know it, but we all individually believe we and are kids are different. That's what the track suit wearers live off of.
     
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  5. Grace T.

    Grace T. Silver

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    I agree with everything you say about NBA/NFL athletes and how they'd perform in soccer. But it is also about the money. The Ronaldos in the world are very few and far between. And they play for only a handful of mega clubs that dominate their local leagues (2 in Spain, 3 or 4 in England, 2-3 in Germany, 1 in Russia). A goalkeeper for a 2nd tier club like Sevilla FC in Spain makes about $1M a year. La Coruna in contrast spends $17M for its entire squad. If you get down to the division 2s and 3s you are getting below MLS wages. (You can argue US baseball salaries work similarly if you consider Europe one superstate...but the U.S. dominance in baseball has already slipped so it sort of also proves the point).

    So basically, to pull down that salary, a US player would have to forgo college and go directly to Europe. Pulisic, arguably our best USMNT player, is pulling down a little north of $1M. He has upside potential...but for an American player starting out, that seems to be the high mark one can aim for. Add to that a bunch of disincentives the American player has to face to play in Europe: it's a long way from friends and family; they might not speak the local lingo; they have to break through the European academy system which already produces great players and to do that they may need to make the transition as early as high school; the US government double taxes them on their foreign earnings; their soccer education may not be up to an equivalent athlete raised in Europe due to our soccer culture and/or the level of training available; there are immigration issues with Americans resident in Europe; the list goes on. You'd need a player good enough to compete with the Europeans for the highest level clubs and who's willing to forego the safe option of college and take a risk in Europe for the few potential very high pay days (given the odds for a person getting into Harvard or becoming a Hollywood movie star are better for an American than breaking into a tier 1 European club, let alone becoming it's Ronaldo).
     
  6. JJP

    JJP Silver

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    I find this hard to believe. And if it’s true, it can only be true because numbers were parsed in a way to exclude a huge revenue year for the men. I’m sure the men’s soccer team earns the greater percentage of revenue by far.

    I’m not putting down women’s soccer. I don’t have a daughter, but if I did I would have her playing something because I wouldn’t want her sitting around never getting in shape. I think it’s great that there are a lot of sports for girls to choose, have fun, and get in shape for. And I actually do watch women’s soccer during WC years, I try to catch every game I can.

    But this idea that girls sports needs equal funding to men, IMO, is just wrong. Women’s sports has basically taken money from men’s sports for their funding. And honestly, I don’t see that situation changing any time in the foreseeable future. So IMO, the first priority always has to be to develop the revenue earning sport first, basically make the men’s game better and more competitive so that it can earn more money. After the men’s game has earned more money, then a chunk of that extra money, IMO should without question be put into the women’s game to develop it.

    I just think it’s backasswards and terrible business sense to prioritize the non-revenue portion of the sport. Right now, since we have been bounced from the WC, we need to prioritize fixing men’s soccer in the US as our first priority.
     
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  7. Ballon d'Or

    Ballon d'Or

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    Gawd! No wonder we as a country suck in soccer because we still have a lot of friggen idiots like these. I'm sorry to be so bluntly insulting but just have gotten so tired of this stupid, repeated argument which proves a poster's lack of soccer knowledge.

    It's not that U.S. Soccer lacks great athletes. It LACKS sophisticated soccer trainers and parents!!! Most coaches at the top clubs just inherit and recruit the top athletes and don't develop their players' skills or tactical awareness measurably. And most parents just think their kids winning more this season than last is development. World-class soccer involves phenomenal speed of thought, awareness and creativity on top of physical movement, which we lack collectively in a group of 11. There are very, very few parents, youth coaches, high school coaches and college coaches who can develop that beyond the normal mediocre level found in the U.S. And we end up with a national team full of great athletes but little sophistication. Like taking a bunch of great checkers players to a global chess tournament. Yay!

    The biggest hurdle putting us behind other countries is our child labor laws. While academies in other countries develop kids from a young age then profit modestly to enormously when they become full-fledged professionals, they don't have to concern themselves with wins and losses to stay solvent. They're vested in the long-term development of kids. Not so in this country. They just have you from year to year and are at the mercy of the whim of the unknowledgeable parents whose biggest hope is that their kid lands a college scholarship at best, not a professional contract in Europe.

    There's even recent proof of what I'm talking about in this country. A former Barcelona transplant took a group of girls, none being exceptional athletes, and developed them from a young age into the top '98 team in the entire nation for several years. Yep! Look up De Anza Force 98 Girls and coach Andres Deza. A sophisticated soccer dad. He's an exception. So are Christian Pulisic's parents.

    Until more exceptions appear and prosper so it becomes normal, or at least until there's at least 11 for each gender, we as a country will always be mired in mediocrity.

    Forget about getting all the top atheletes. Enough play soccer in this *country. We need the best coaches and smarter parents.

    Rant over. Have a Happy Thanksgiving!!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
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  8. Josep

    Josep Bronze

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    Don’t forget the holiday week camps. Granted he’s paying for fields, but he’s got a strong system.
     
  9. BarcaLover

    BarcaLover Bronze

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    Give Deza or Brian Kleiban our National Teams and we would see a DRAMATIC change in our team’s style of play and results.

    Our problems as a country are we have too many coaches that don’t know how to coach and parents that think winning records at U8 is what development is all about.
     
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  10. ATRTDT

    ATRTDT Bronze

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    Its funny a handful of idiots actually care about U little records in sports. The focus needs to be on individual growth regardless of a team sport being played or not. Are you going to remember the team that went 22-1 during the season or the kid that smoked your team for 7 goals?

    Any one with any comprehension of competitive sports knows youth is for DEVELOPMENT.
     
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  11. Lambchop

    Lambchop Silver

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    I guess the Italians better improve their youth development program too since they didn't qualify for World Cup!
     
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  12. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    @JJP - While we may disagree regarding football athletes potential to make good soccer players, we do agree on this point (sort of).

    @Lambchop - There is no disagreement (even by US Soccer) that the USWNT's revenue exceeded expectations and the winning women have/will make a profit v. the losing men when it comes to game revenues. A 2016 NY Times article recognized: "But in 2015, the women’s team won the World Cup and then embarked on a scheduled 10-city victory tour that yielded an eight-figure bump to U.S. Soccer’s bottom line. As a result, the women brought in more than $23 million in game revenue, about $16 million more than the federation had projected. An anomaly? Yes. And a welcome one if you are U.S. Soccer." (NY Times Article, 2016)

    When it comes to Olympic and Wold Cup efforts participation by the US (men or women) is not just about money, but a point of national pride. The investment, even if break even, is worth it and we know that US Soccer through game revenues, FIFA bonuses and the sale of merchandise and rights has the war chest to adequately fund the efforts. The problem is the men's program is substantially more profitable than the woman's program from a FIFA perpective. For example, U.S. Soccer received from FIFA $9 million when the men’s team advanced to the second round of the 2014 World Cup in Brazil, but only about $2 million when the women won the 2015 World Cup in Canada. Each of those bonuses were paid because of on-field performance and arguably earned by the respective teams, is it fair to deny the men their bonus and direct those funds to the woman? As long as the men's program remains what the world will tune too, the pay disparity will exist. If somebody can figure out how to get the world to watch the slower speed of the woman's game at the same rate as the much faster men's game, then the pay gap will equalize.

    Notwithstanding the above, the fact remains that professional women's team sports in the U.S. are unprofitable ventures that lose millions. The WNBA, NWSL, NPF (National Pro Fastpitch) have yet to turn a single dollar of profit. You simply don't pay athletes millions of dollars when the leagues lose millions of dollars, to do so would bankrupt the league and drive these benevolent long-term investors away. Simple economics.
     
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  13. jsmaxwell

    jsmaxwell Bronze

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    Funny. I'm guessing you think Dez Bryant is the best wideout in the NFL as well?
     
  14. Lambchop

    Lambchop Silver

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    So you believe everything the Times writes about. :) Time will tell. Frankly, the men's game is faster but very boring when they constantly loose. My family and friends would rather watch a winning game than a boring one
     
  15. Lambchop

    Lambchop Silver

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    Ya simple economics, and you believe everything you read in the Times. :) Frankly, the men's game is faster but it is very boring to watch a losing game and we do not attend games for a losing team. I would much rather watch a winning game. Time will tell. As for FIFA, they are incredibly corrupt and there is so much that needs to change from within the organization. Hopefully the women will continue to qualify for future WC, so forward and onward. Interesting how men equate fast with good and better.
     
  16. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    @Lambchop,
    Please don't confuse pro-woman's team sports with the Olympic or National team. These are two separate issues. One is not profitable, but the later is profitable. The facts reported by the Times are the facts. Opinions of those facts may differ. What the Times reported is what other news outlets also report, so yes, I tend to believe these indisputable facts. Here is another article confirming the ultimate point of the Times article: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...ion-world-cup-win-germany-got-35-million-2014.

    The revenues generated by the men's game are not just a percentage increase, but multiples compared to the woman's game. Nobody is arguing we abandon support of the national teams, rather, the failure to recognize the economic realities of professional soccer in the US for both men and women is a major disconnect by those seeking to solve the ultimate question "How to improve US soccer."
     
  17. JJP

    JJP Silver

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    Everybody, including women’s coaches is looking for speed. Speed of foot and speed of thought. The difference between academy and flight 1, at least among the boys, is the speed of play. Every level you move up the players in general get faster, both mentally and physically. So I would say yes, on an individual and team level, more speed is good and better.

    Whether speed makes the game more enjoyable to watch, that is up to individual taste. For example, I usually prefer men’s team sports because I’m used to the speed of the men’s game so the women’s game seems slow, but I enjoy women’s volleyball more than men’s volleyball. The men spike so hard and fast points are over too quick. The slower speed and less explosiveness of the women’s game, for me, makes it more enjoyable to watch. Plus the girls look great in volleyball uniforms.
     
  18. jimbohonky

    jimbohonky Bronze

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    We need to follow the example of all the top world class soccer academies and clubs and recruit our talent from high school basketball and American football teams!
    Wait, what?
     
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  19. Vin

    Vin Bronze

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  20. Real Deal

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    Interesting, but I am confused. Japan's women play more of a Tiki-Taka style of play. I've watched, and they make short rapid passes, playing completely as a team. In this article, he seems to be suggesting a more "Ronaldo-esque" style, using just your own skills to move the ball, instead of team play, (as the Japan women do) where you use your teammates to move the ball. Am I missing something?

    Sure, of course the kids could benefit by having their international coach parents start to train them from birth (HEHE)... But I am almost certain that US Soccer already values kids that have some success trying to play like Ronaldo...
     

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