Galaxy U15 champions?

[Paul Spacey]

The US competes against kids whose #1 sport is Soccer. We lose our best athletes to football/baseball/basketball, not sure how to fix that.

There are plenty of kids here in the US who choose soccer as their #1 (and only) sport. Specialization isn't so much of an issue; early engagement (which is different to specialization) and attaining ball mastery at a young age is vital but that's another debate.

The 'athlete' thing doesn't really stand up. The US already has players at the national level who can compete with their international counterparts on an athletic level. The problem is that US players cannot currently compete (individually or as a group) with the top players/teams in the world when it comes to decision making, composure under pressure and creativity among other things. There is still a big gap (aside from outliers like Pulisic) in that regard and this is the issue that US Soccer has to fix if it wants the USMNT to truly compete and challenge on the elite world stage.

 

[Paul Spacey]

The US competes against kids whose #1 sport is Soccer. We lose our best athletes to football/baseball/basketball, not sure how to fix that.

There are plenty of kids here in the US who choose soccer as their #1 (and only) sport. Specialization isn't so much of an issue; early engagement (which is different to specialization) and attaining ball mastery at a young age is vital but that's another debate.

The 'athlete' thing doesn't really stand up. The US already has players at the national level who can compete with their international counterparts on an athletic level. The problem is that US players cannot currently compete (individually or as a group) with the top players/teams in the world when it comes to decision making, composure under pressure and creativity among other things. There is still a big gap (aside from outliers like Pulisic) in that regard and this is the issue that US Soccer has to fix if it wants the USMNT to truly compete and challenge on the elite world stage.

 

[JJP]

The 'athlete' thing doesn't really stand up. The US already has players at the national level who can compete with their international counterparts on an athletic level. The problem is that US players cannot currently compete (individually or as a group) with the top players/teams in the world when it comes to decision making, composure under pressure and creativity among other things. There is still a big gap (aside from outliers like Pulisic) in that regard and this is the issue that US Soccer has to fix if it wants the USMNT to truly compete and challenge on the elite world stage.

Completely disagree.

The US has nobody who matches up athletically with a Neymar, diMaria, Kun Aguero, Tevez, Kylian Mbappe, Coutinho, Martial, Ousmane Dembele. All the top countries have guys that are freak or near freak athletes with soccer skills.

Name one player on the US national team that is a freak athlete. You can’t because we don’t have one. It was very obvious to my eyes that we had one legit athlete, the striker from Stanford, one good but lightweight athlete with high soccer IQ and skills in Pulisic, and nobody else was special.

There are so many 6 feet or less club basketball players, if they dedicated themselves to soccer, the academy teams would look completely different. And that’s just one sport. I can’t even count the number of fantastic athletes with soccer bodies who are playing as receivers or cornerbacks on their high school football team.

 

[Paul Spacey]

Completely disagree.

The US has nobody who matches up athletically with a Neymar, diMaria, Kun Aguero, Tevez, Kylian Mbappe, Coutinho, Martial, Ousmane Dembele. All the top countries have guys that are freak or near freak athletes with soccer skills.

Name one player on the US national team that is a freak athlete. You can’t because we don’t have one. It was very obvious to my eyes that we had one legit athlete, the striker from Stanford, one good but lightweight athlete with high soccer IQ and skills in Pulisic, and nobody else was special.

There are so many 6 feet or less club basketball players, if they dedicated themselves to soccer, the academy teams would look completely different. And that’s just one sport. I can’t even count the number of fantastic athletes with soccer bodies who are playing as receivers or cornerbacks on their high school football team.

I completely understand your viewpoint and why you have it; it’s a common view among US sports fans but it’s patently false. Is Pulisic an exceptional athlete? Not really. Does he have great quality on the ball and a very good soccer brain? Yes, and this is what you need at the elite level to compete (among other things).

Ask Xavi and Iniesta (two of the greatest midfield players of all time) if being a ‘freak athlete’ is necessary to make it at the elite international level.

Yedlin is an obvious US player who also happens to be an extremely gifted athlete (but he absolutely does not have what Xavi or Iniesta do between their ears). Have a read of this article, it might help:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.st...-if-only-americas-best-athletes-played-soccer

 

[coachrefparent]

The best soccer players in the world are the best athletes + the best skilled soccer player + the best mental soccer minds. In the U.S. the best athletes will never play soccer (why would they?). So the best the U.S. can get is 2 out of 3.

 

[JJP]

I completely understand your viewpoint and why you have it; it’s a common view among US sports fans but it’s patently false. Is Pulisic an exceptional athlete? Not really. Does he have great quality on the ball and a very good soccer brain? Yes, and this is what you need at the elite level to compete (among other things).

But Pulisic played with freak athletes. Pulisic is one of those guys who can take advantage of the space that freak athletes create and make things happen. It’s not a coincidence that Bosrussia Dortmund went downhill after Ousmane Dembele left for Barcelona. It’s not a coincidence that Pulisic’s numbers and effectiveness went down after Dembele left.

Ask Xavi and Iniesta (two of the greatest midfield players of all time) if being a ‘freak athlete’ is necessary to make it at the elite international level.

Again, these guys are good players that look great when playing with Messi or Neymar, but they are not the same level of greatness without Messi or Neymar to take the pressure off of them.

A team full of Xavis will not be a good team, because he is a facilitator, not a creator. Xavi is the type of “superstar” who makes real superstars better. He is a tremendously overrated player. He was a gifted passer, but come on, he would receive the ball in large pockets of open space because the D was tilted toward Messi and then most of the time he would pass it to Messi or to space that Messi could run to. You don’t need Deep Mind supercomputer AI learning to come up with that strat.

The fact is that teams have been moving away from the unathletic Xavi/Pirlo style of playmaker since Bayern Munich targeted Xavi, instead of doubling Messi, in Champions League 2013, and Manchester United muzzled Pirlo in 2010 with Ji Sung Park. Why build your team around a guy that can be shut down by a crappier soccer player who happens to be a better athlete and cheaper?

 

[Wez]

There are plenty of kids here in the US who choose soccer as their #1 (and only) sport.

You missed the point, take the talent pool found in the NFL & NBA and imagine if they had played soccer instead? Soccer doesn't attract money and prestige in America and our best soccer players usually end up playing in Europe anyway.

 

[Paul Spacey]

The best soccer players in the world are the best athletes + the best skilled soccer player + the best mental soccer minds. In the U.S. the best athletes will never play soccer (why would they?). So the best the U.S. can get is 2 out of 3.

I agree with your first sentence but the second one is something too many people use an as excuse for the lack of US elite international level players.

MLS is full of ‘athletes’ but it is not full of players who are able to dictate the tempo of the game, not by sprinting as fast as they can, mindlessly, but by putting the brakes on, pausing and making intelligent decisions on the ball when the situation demands it. Many of the players who can do this are foreign (I’m not bashing US players, just pointing out something obvious).

English top level players are not much different. We have very few (if any) truly world class, creative, dynamic decision makers who can influence elite international level games. In that sense, England and the US have similar player development problems. Blaming it on a lack of athletes won’t solve the problem. It is a very complex issue which is influenced and affected by so many variables, even things like culture and attitudes to life (it’s too complex and far-reaching to discuss in detail on this board, basically).

I respect your view though.

 

[Paul Spacey]

You missed the point, take the talent pool found in the NFL & NBA and imagine if they had played soccer instead? Soccer doesn't attract money and prestige in America and our best soccer players usually end up playing in Europe anyway.

I didn’t, I completely got your point. I just don’t agree with it, even though I respect it and understand why you have that view.

It’s not an ‘athlete’ problem. This article explains it without me having to type about the complexities of the issue for hours.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.st...-if-only-americas-best-athletes-played-soccer

 

[younothat]

DA currently is limited for players that reach a certain level; clubs & ussda knows this and that why playing up is the only real option and why they mandate this for all Nat team players. But even so once players reach a certain level even at ages 15,16,17 they look to move out of DA to something with greater competition or challenges be it a USL, PSL, oversears or whatever.

I would prefer to see things change in the da league and the competition level to increase across the board. So what can be done to accomplish that?

Like I mentioned before I don't see pro/rel getting accepted by ussda although I still think its the right course even for youth teams starting at a certain age.

Coast Soccer League (CSL) can mange this but I see what people are saying about when you try to cross leagues or whatever. Coast has other divisions you pro/rel to but DA has just one division/bracket per age group so getting kicked out of the league would be something hard to deal with financially or politically. DA would have to either sanction a 2nd division or accept/work with another usclub soccer org to pro/rel teams to/from.

So what else can be done?

How about some "Open" competition or tournaments that are not closed to only other "DA" clubs. The US open club always seems to bring some life into the scene.
https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/20...d-revs-first-night-2018-open-cup-fourth-round

Youth Soccer doesn't really have that exciting feel or atmosphere that a high school football or basketball game can bring, there really not any US soccer "superstars" that kids aspire to be, in fact outside of small % of players like those in DA I think if you asked most youth soccer players to name players on the current Men's national team they would be hard pressed to tell you who they are?

Perhaps holding qualifying tournaments for those teams that don't meet a certain standard each year could work and give new teams a pathway into the league. DA really needs a reboot or refresher after 10-11yrs, seems stale to me and some new ideas or approaches are needed IMO. More tournaments, open comps, somethings to bring some excitement into the sport, rather than just playing a set of league games for 10-months & calling a team this or that...

 

[JJP]

MLS is full of ‘athletes’ but it is not full of players who are able to dictate the tempo of the game, not by sprinting as fast as they can, mindlessly, but by putting the brakes on, pausing and making intelligent decisions on the ball when the situation demands it. Many of the players who can do this are foreign (I’m not bashing US players, just pointing out something obvious).

English top level players are not much different. We have very few (if any) truly world class, creative, dynamic decision makers who can influence elite international level games. In that sense, England and the US have similar player development problems. Blaming it on a lack of athletes won’t solve the problem. It is a very complex issue which is influenced and affected by so many variables, even things like culture and attitudes to life (it’s too complex and far-reaching to discuss in detail on this board, basically).

I respect your view though.

No doubt soccer IQ is important. Nobody disagrees with that. But you seem to be taking the viewpoint that high soccer IQ plus limited athleticism is a viable formula for a world class player. It’s not. Your primary example, Xavi, now plays in Qatar, was torn apart by Bayern in 2013 in Champions League, exposed in WC 2014, and was pretty shit in his last years at Barcelona.

Teams have learned that the best way to attack the unathletic Xavi/Pirlo type of deep lying playmaker is to attack them with a more athletic defender, as opposed to parking an extra defender in the back. The Xavi/Pirlo type of player has no viable response to this strat, and nobody is looking to develop, buy or retain that type of player anymore.

Pep spent $200 million buying speedy fullbacks for Manchester City, not a single Xavi type player among them. Barcelona bought Rakitic, Neymar and Suarez and when Neymar left bought Paulinho, Coutinho and Dembele with the money from the Neymar sale. All those players have high soccer IQ, but they are defined by their incredible athleticism, not a single Xavi type player among them.

Xavi worked at the beginning of the tiki-taka era when teams didn’t know how to defend it, and left the deep lying playmakers alone to park the bus vs. the forwards. This enabled the Barcelona backline and deep lying mids to maintain possession and cycle the ball until they could crack the D. The high possession rates masked the huge weaknesses of the Xavi style player, they are terrible defenders and they cannot win back possession. So teams started getting better athletes all over the field, high pressing and attacking the backline and deep lying midfielders, and now the Xavi style players are done.

 

[ray8]

They were the top team in their division, which is enough for most people to call themselves champions. At 80 points and 2.7586 points per game they lead all the U15 teams in the US. In the MLS they call that the Supporter's Shield. I think both of those reasons are pretty much good enough for a bunch of 15 year-olds to be able to scream Champions if they want to.

Galaxy held back two or so players a few days(?) from national team duty to play this game. Someone really wanted to get that points-per-game result.

For those of you who don't know how Galaxy works or what they do to young aspiring players you should know why they needed that win. It's smoke. The mirrors part is taken care of by their name. What parent in their right mind would drive their boy 1 1/2 hours to play at a no-name club?
By smoke I mean wins.
It should be obvious that a team that can cherry pick most any effective player from its opposition will get the wins. Second-place Dallas would have a much harder time poaching a player from hundreds of miles away. I think Galaxy at this age level is unique in it's ability to poach.
The wins afford Galaxy a few luxuries. Most of all they don't have to develop their players. They've collected enough talent to get the wins. If they just keep enough talent wearing the jersey they won't have to face that talent, regardless of whether that talent plays at all. And the excuse for not developing is built-in: Of course we can't develop our boys. There is no competition.
Sad to see a lot of these boys I've known going sideways in terms of development. But that's the deal there.

 

[Paul Spacey]

No doubt soccer IQ is important. Nobody disagrees with that. But you seem to be taking the viewpoint that high soccer IQ plus limited athleticism is a viable formula for a world class player. It’s not. Your primary example, Xavi, now plays in Qatar, was torn apart by Bayern in 2013 in Champions League, exposed in WC 2014, and was pretty shit in his last years at Barcelona.

Teams have learned that the best way to attack the unathletic Xavi/Pirlo type of deep lying playmaker is to attack them with a more athletic defender, as opposed to parking an extra defender in the back. The Xavi/Pirlo type of player has no viable response to this strat, and nobody is looking to develop, buy or retain that type of player anymore.

Pep spent $200 million buying speedy fullbacks for Manchester City, not a single Xavi type player among them. Barcelona bought Rakitic, Neymar and Suarez and when Neymar left bought Paulinho, Coutinho and Dembele with the money from the Neymar sale. All those players have high soccer IQ, but they are defined by their incredible athleticism, not a single Xavi type player among them.

Xavi worked at the beginning of the tiki-taka era when teams didn’t know how to defend it, and left the deep lying playmakers alone to park the bus vs. the forwards. This enabled the Barcelona backline and deep lying mids to maintain possession and cycle the ball until they could crack the D. The high possession rates masked the huge weaknesses of the Xavi style player, they are terrible defenders and they cannot win back possession. So teams started getting better athletes all over the field, high pressing and attacking the backline and deep lying midfielders, and now the Xavi style players are done.

Nowhere did I say ‘limited athleticism’ will make an elite player. But if your focus is athleticism then you can miss the IQ and decision making part. Both the US and England have done this with their approach to development and player talent ID selection in recent times. Has it worked? No.

That you are so dismissive of Xavi’s ability suggests to me that you do not have a soccer background yourself, or maybe you do? You didn’t comment on Iniesta, would you also say he is of ‘limited athleticism’ and therefore tremendously overrated like Xavi?

Yes, Xavi plays in Qatar, thanks for pointing that out. He is also 38 years old! *head in hands*

 

[JJP]

You missed the point, take the talent pool found in the NFL & NBA and imagine if they had played soccer instead? Soccer doesn't attract money and prestige in America and our best soccer players usually end up playing in Europe anyway.

I don’t think you can take NFL and NBA players and convert them to soccer. NFL and especially NBA bodies are specialized for their sport, and those specialized bodies are not easily adapted to soccer.

But there are plenty of fantastic high school and college athletes with soccer body types who play basketball and college, who are not going to be pro NFL or NBA players, that IMO could be tremendous soccer players.

 

[JJP]

Nowhere did I say ‘limited athleticism’ will make an elite player. But if your focus is athleticism then you can miss the IQ and decision making part. Both the US and England have done this with their approach to development and player talent ID selection in recent times. Has it worked? No.

There are so many reasons why the US soccer system doesn’t work. I don’t know enough about the English system to comment on it. My opinion of the English system is that it produces enough players but they are split between England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Celts, Picts and God knows what other ethnic group that looks completely like every other ethnic group in that country.

My opinion is, it’s completely worth missing out on a Xavi (you would have to filter through millions of slow, unathletic players to find a Xavi) to flush out all the shitty, slow, unathletic, but supposedly “high IQ” players. The DA system is overwhelmed with deluded kids and parents who think their “high soccer IQ” will enable the kid to become a pro despite their limited athleticism.

That you are so dismissive of Xavi’s ability suggests to me that you do not have a soccer background yourself, or maybe you do? You didn’t comment on Iniesta, would you also say he is of ‘limited athleticism’ and therefore tremendously overrated like Xavi?

Yes, Xavi plays in Qatar, thanks for pointing that out. He is also 38 years old! *head in hands*

Iniesta is another discussion. But Xavi, he really only could shine under certain circumstances, and once teams adjusted to Barcelona’s initial brand of tiki-taka, his days as a top player were done. Not sure why you’re acting like I don’t know what I’m talking about when it’s documented how Xavi got exposed and how Barcelona has spent HUGE amounts of money buying athleticism instead of doubling down on tiki-taka.

 

[JCM]

Whoever doesn't think Pulisic is a great athlete is nuts. He runs about a 4.5 40 and is playing at a really high level since age 17. His touch and creativity are great, but there is a ton of athleticism there. Also, the USMNT has a ton of great athletes. You don't think Zardes is an athlete? That's almost all he is. Did you see Weah run? Sargent at age 18 scoring goals??? These guys are all great athletes. Brian McBride was an incredible athlete who could run and jump. Our (USMNT) deficiency is speed of play and that's where a Xavi or Iniesta can dominate over those bigger, faster and stronger.

But if you've seen the quality of kids we produce now versus what we had even ten years ago, it's clear we are the right path. I'm not a USDA fan because it's not great for the non star player, but we are developing kids even though it's at the expense of so many other things.

 

[JJP]

Whoever doesn't think Pulisic is a great athlete is nuts. He runs about a 4.5 40 and is playing at a really high level since age 17. His touch and creativity are great, but there is a ton of athleticism there. Also, the USMNT has a ton of great athletes. You don't think Zardes is an athlete? That's almost all he is. Did you see Weah run? Sargent at age 18 scoring goals??? These guys are all great athletes. Brian McBride was an incredible athlete who could run and jump. Our (USMNT) deficiency is speed of play and that's where a Xavi or Iniesta can dominate over those bigger, faster and stronger.

Where’s the proof Pulisic runs a 4.5 40? McBride retired a long time ago. Zardes lacks foot eye coordination so he is the wrong type of athlete for soccer.

Nobody’s saying Pulisic is a bad athlete, he is an excellent athlete, but a country the size of the US should have a few freak athletes headlining the team, and we don’t.

 

[JCM]

Where’s the proof Pulisic runs a 4.5 40? McBride retired a long time ago. Zardes lacks foot eye coordination so he is the wrong type of athlete for soccer.

Nobody’s saying Pulisic is a bad athlete, he is an excellent athlete, but a country the size of the US should have a few freak athletes headlining the team, and we don’t.

Re: Pulisic, he is reported to have a top speed of 21.4 mph which translates to 4.5 in the 40. Do a Google.

Not sure how you've measured Zardes' eye foot coordination other than that he has a bad touch. To me his problem is more speed of thought and lack of creativity. Probably a kid who got by for so long by being a superior athlete and by the time it caught up to him it was too late. Many who are in his athletic realm are being taught technically now. Check out the young LAFC players and you will see incredible athletes who are technical.

Re: McBride, yes he was a long time ago, just the point that we've always had great athletes. Even Michael Bradley is a tremendous athlete. Jozy is athletic. Nagbe is really fluid. Zusi is an amazing athlete.

Now we have McKinnie, Weah, Sargent, etc. who at age 18 are getting to play at a level that requires them to do more than be an athlete and do so at an earlier age and that will make all of the difference for the USMNT in the future.

 

[younothat]

Whoever doesn't think Pulisic is a great athlete is nuts. He runs about a 4.5 40 and is playing at a really high level since age 17. His touch and creativity are great, but there is a ton of athleticism there. Also, the USMNT has a ton of great athletes. You don't think Zardes is an athlete? That's almost all he is. Did you see Weah run? Sargent at age 18 scoring goals??? These guys are all great athletes. Brian McBride was an incredible athlete who could run and jump. Our (USMNT) deficiency is speed of play and that's where a Xavi or Iniesta can dominate over those bigger, faster and stronger.

But if you've seen the quality of kids we produce now versus what we had even ten years ago, it's clear we are the right path. I'm not a USDA fan because it's not great for the non star player, but we are developing kids even though it's at the expense of so many other things.

Both my son and I are Pulisic fans and we think its about time that the new generation of players like him, Weah, Sargent, Zimmerman are given shots.

However its really too early to say how things might turn out. Missing the World Cup + the Olympics what 2-3 times in a row makes it clear that the path was not right. Hopefully we qualify for the Olympics next go and can build on that., the friendly game vs France should be interesting.

 

[JJP]

Re: Pulisic, he is reported to have a top speed of 21.4 mph which translates to 4.5 in the 40. Do a Google.

Take your word for it. I’m a huge fan of Pulisic. Hoping he gets more muscle as he matures without losing any speed.

Not sure how you've measured Zardes' eye foot coordination other than that he has a bad touch. To me his problem is more speed of thought and lack of creativity. Probably a kid who got by for so long by being a superior athlete and by the time it caught up to him it was too late. Many who are in his athletic realm are being taught technically now. Check out the young LAFC players and you will see incredible athletes who are technical.

My son trained with Zardes. Zardes was ridiculously fast and could jump through the roof but he had clumsy feet and a horrible touch. I have no idea on his speed of thought or creativity. When your first touch is that bad, doesn’t matter how creative you are.

I’ve seen the LAFC and Galaxy youth players. They are really good soccer players and just OK, not great, athletes. Galaxy has a couple 02s that are great athletes.

Re: McBride, yes he was a long time ago, just the point that we've always had great athletes. Even Michael Bradley is a tremendous athlete. Jozy is athletic. Nagbe is really fluid. Zusi is an amazing athlete.

Now we have McKinnie, Weah, Sargent, etc. who at age 18 are getting to play at a level that requires them to do more than be an athlete and do so at an earlier age and that will make all of the difference for the USMNT in the future.

I think your definition of great athlete and my definition of great athlete are different. I in no way consider Bradley to be a great athlete. I thought McBride and Zusi are decent, but not great athletes, on the world level of soccer. Altidore is a track athlete, his change of direction at the world level, is subpar.

I don’t know the young players on the USNT, but I watched a half of a recent friendly, and I was not impressed with anyone.

The only US players I’ve seen who have that combo of soccer skill and athleticism at the world class level are Landon Donovan and Pulisic.