Do ref complaints matter?

coachrefparent said:
No, and its not their fault that some NFL, EPL, and international match referees make mistakes as to the rules as well.
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I've no problem with mistakes, they happen at all levels of the game and I certainly don't think its appropriate for someone to file a complaint against a ref for a few mistakes or judgment calls...losing a game because you think its the ref's fault is not a justification. What I have is a problem with those that don't show up physically or mentally prepared to fulfill their paid responsibilities (or those that have no regard for player safety) and those associations that allow those same refs to be assigned to games. If that makes me an a-hole, so be it.
 
watfly said:
I've no problem with mistakes, they happen at all levels of the game and I certainly don't think its appropriate for someone to file a complaint against a ref for a few mistakes or judgment calls...losing a game because you think its the ref's fault is not a justification. What I have is a problem with those that don't show up physically or mentally prepared to fulfill their paid responsibilities (or those that have no regard for player safety) and those associations that allow those same refs to be assigned to games. If that makes me an a-hole, so be it.
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I think the point that referees on this board are making (which is completely accurate), is that the conduct drives out the younger referees that are engaged, very fit, and working hard to learn all the nuances of the game.

Referees (not only the fat bad ones), are berated to some extent by coaches and parents nearly each and every game they referee. Imagine if players faced what these youth referees face EVERY TIME THEY REFEREE. There would be very few players left.
 
coachrefparent said:
I think the point that referees on this board are making (which is completely accurate), is that the conduct drives out the younger referees that are engaged, very fit, and working hard to learn all the nuances of the game.

Referees (not only the fat bad ones), are berated to some extent by coaches and parents nearly each and every game they referee. Imagine if players faced what these youth referees face EVERY TIME THEY REFEREE. There would be very few players left.
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I understand what your saying, I just can't stretch logic far enough to blame parents for unfit refs. I guess I haven't seen the continuous berating that you are subject to. Do I hear the cries of "handball" ,"C'mon, ref" or "Call it both ways", sure those are fairly common, but berating...rarely. I've been nothing but impressed by the younger refs we have had the last few years, they've been consistenly better than the "long in the tooth" refs. As long as those young refs don't become jaded I think the future is bright.
 
MWN said:
In my case, as I can't speak for others:

The directives from US Soccer asks referees to manage the game in a way that allows the game to flow with only necessary stoppages of play. I am one of those "loose" referees tending to find careless fouls "trifling" whenever possible if the foul doesn't affect gameplay (i.e. offensive player not affected by jersey pull). The caveat I make is boys of the same level and age tend to be called looser than girls of the same level and age BECAUSE (1) parents of girls are less tolerant of their DD falling to the ground and (2) girls are more prone to injury after puberty compared to boys of the same age.

Basically, I agree -- Age and Level.

Loosest: Boys/Girls - Flight 1 / Premier - they generally have good control of their bodies, can anticipate strong (fair) challenges. They also have a tendency to strategically needle their opponents into fouling them, but generally, respect their opponents.

Loose: Boys: Silver/Gold/Flight 2 - at U16/15 they are becoming men ... still a little gangly and full of misdirected testosterone. This group is actually one of the toughest because these little bastards think its OK to start swinging ... dumbasses.

Little Tighter: Girls Silver/Gold/Flight 2 - because parents are more sensitive and get sensitive when a strong challenge is made. These girls have a potential future. More so than the boys, but we now have some parents that are much more vocal (f'ing parents, please be quiet). These parents are the most likely to view this game through their rose-colored glasses.

Looser than REC: U13+ Boys/Girls Flight 3 - basically glorified REC players with better skills. Parents that don't understand that soccer is a contact sport.

Normal - U11-U12 - Boys are looser and girls are tighter. The parents are proud ("my kid play club soccer ... flight whatever"). This is an easy game because the kids are not A-holes. Only the coaches and parents. The kids are not reckless, just careless. My only issue with these kids is telling the mid-fielder to stop listening to his Dad that is tell him to "not take it from number ??? and push him back." God, I wished this Dad wearing his Raiders cap would shut the f up ... and what is with the neck tattoo on your dad?

Back to Loose 7v7 - Just play. These little kids don't have any malice in their heart. I leave my yellow and red card in its case. Just play, but stop listening to your Dad telling you to "take it to goal" and listen to your coach.

Tight - Rec.
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Thank you for the great response. Very interesting that you call girls a little tighter due to injury potential. I would have thought it was because girls don't forget.
 
In all my years I don't believe that I have ever seen a parent or coach give a hard time to a teen ref. At least the teams my kids were on were very supportive. I guess that is one of the reasons why we chose those teams. They did give hard times to older refs but obviously that criticism was well deserved(sarcasm).
 
watfly said:
I understand what your saying, I just can't stretch logic far enough to blame parents for unfit refs. I guess I haven't seen the continuous berating that you are subject to. Do I hear the cries of "handball" ,"C'mon, ref" or "Call it both ways", sure those are fairly common, but berating...rarely. I've been nothing but impressed by the younger refs we have had the last few years, they've been consistenly better than the "long in the tooth" refs. As long as those young refs don't become jaded I think the future is bright.
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Well I commend your team and the teams you play. New teenage referees come in excited to get their badge, learn the laws, and earn $25/hour. (Teenagers are lucky to make half that an hour anywhere else. ) But the burn out numbers and why these young referees say they leave, speak for themselves.
 
MWN said:
Looser than REC: U13+ Boys/Girls Flight 3 - basically glorified REC players with better skills. Parents that don't understand that soccer is a contact sport.
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Funny: You're describing the U14-U16 AYSO games I'm doing this season. Anytime two girls make contact, one of them must have committed a foul, according to coaches, parents, you-name-them! (Even the coaches who know better, although I know it's just gamemanship with those guys ... that's fine.)
 
MWN said:
You raise two issues:
  1. Referees that are not physically fit: Yes, it is the parent's fault. We lose 1/2 of our young, physically fit referees every year because of AHole parents and coaches. These kids were our future. They needed game environments that did not leave them feeling like crap during and after the game and wanting to quit. So absolutely ... parents fault. Because these young fit kids don't want to referee anymore ... it's now up to us older fatter slower guys (me). Do you know how many kids are in my association that have left and/or refuse to Center? (hint its waaaaaaay tooooooo many). Yep, parents and A-hole coaches fault.
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Completely agree. My oldest son and oldest daughter ref'ed for 1 and 2 years respectively. My son never centered and my daughter only centered for a year. They were both pleased with the wage, loved working outdoors, and enjoyed being involved in soccer. But they both just let it go because they got tired of being yelled at by parents and coaches. Now my younger two daughters have a year under their belt ref'ing. I can already see their reluctance to take some games for the same reason.

I had a parent chase me (another old fat slow guy) down two weeks ago after a game because he claimed my AR blew a call on whether a ball crossed the goal line, and on another call he claimed she blew on an offside call she raised her flag on after a deliberate save by the keeper. He went on to tell me how his kids team was robbed. I pointed out that she, on the end line, was probably in a much better position to make both of those calls then he was at mid field. He continued to go off on me. It made no difference to him when I quoted him the text from Law 11 on the offside call (we had just covered it 3 days earlier in our association meeting). The AR was 15 and relatively new. She did a great job of keeping up with the play and being in position to make the right calls, which from my perspective she did on both plays. And she got to witness this guy railing about what a bad job she (and I) did. It doesn't surprise me that half of these kids drop ref'ing after a year or two.
 
watfly said:
I've no problem with mistakes, they happen at all levels of the game and I certainly don't think its appropriate for someone to file a complaint against a ref for a few mistakes or judgment calls...losing a game because you think its the ref's fault is not a justification. What I have is a problem with those that don't show up physically or mentally prepared to fulfill their paid responsibilities (or those that have no regard for player safety) and those associations that allow those same refs to be assigned to games. If that makes me an a-hole, so be it.
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What if they weren’t paid and were strictly volunteers? Would your attitude change?
Monkey said:
Sorry you are so offended. But I was not there to see that team and I was standing in the shade when they walked over to where I was setting up my tripod. The CR was not a teenage, probably early 20s and in my opinion it is better that I heard him and put a stop to his conversation then one of the parents on the team that he was talking negatively about. The parents were so irate with the non-call of the hair pull down, I am not sure what would have happened if that girl's father heard him.

In my opinion it was a valuable lesson for him to shut his mouth.
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He’s still a young man, who is trying to do the best he can. Seems like the valuable lesson was not only for him but for you as well. Think about it for a second.
 
GKDad65 said:
"We" the paying customer need to start holding our Clubs responsible for the quality of officiating at our home games. Anyone can take a weekend course and watch a couple of videos on the internet (while doing something else) and become a "Referee".
Clubs are just submitting a need to their associations and the associations are just filling spots, no quality assurance, no process improvement, just bodies, and sometimes not even that.
Where is the emphasis to provide a quality product?

I applaud the ref's that work to improve their knowledge of the game, unfortunately you are in the minority.

In the end, it's just youth soccer and not personal.
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If only the parents could take parenting classes before putting their kids in youth sports or before having kids for that matter. Refs, like coaches, Parents, teachers and everyone else, are trying their best. As a coach I never blame the ref, because that’s giving the kids an excuse to quit.
Why don’t you take the internet course and show the world how it’s done?
 
Toch said:
What if they weren’t paid and were strictly volunteers? Would your attitude change?
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Great question. I don't know that it would change my opinion much regarding refs that show up unprepared to fulfill their responsibilities. I'm a volunteer for a youth organization and I don't approach it with the mentality that I can "half ass" my commitment because I'm not getting paid. Even though we have a difficult time finding board members, those that don't fulfill their unpaid commitment are counseled out. Maybe what I expect from myself, is too much to expect from others.

Call me old school, but paid or unpaid, I believe you should take pride in your work and employ a work ethic that enables you to fulfill your commitment no matter how crappy the job may be. I not a subscriber to the "new school" mentality that life shouldn't be hard and that we should have "safe spaces" to protect us from criticism, nor I'm I one to blame others for my failures to fullfill my commitments.
 
Toch said:
What if they weren’t paid and were strictly volunteers? Would your attitude change?


He’s still a young man, who is trying to do the best he can. Seems like the valuable lesson was not only for him but for you as well. Think about it for a second.
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Actually he was not a young man trying to do his best and that was my point. He saw that hair pull and did not call it as well as other fouls (from what I heard him and parents say) because he was having fun getting under the skin of the coach he did not like. Moreover 20 somethings are adults and should not let a personal issue with a coach impact how he refs a game and endanger the safety of young girls that have nothing to do with his issue.

Moreover it was obvious that I was not an official when I made my comment to him and complemented the ARs for holding it together despite the angry parents. My kids were not playing in that game nor the next one and eventhough I was there to help a friend on the next game no one would know which team I was with.

So to answer your question, no I did not learn anything.
 
Monkey said:
Actually he was not a young man trying to do his best and that was my point. He saw that hair pull and did not call it as well as other fouls (from what I heard him and parents say) because he was having fun getting under the skin of the coach he did not like. Moreover 20 somethings are adults and should not let a personal issue with a coach impact how he refs a game and endanger the safety of young girls that have nothing to do with his issue.

Moreover it was obvious that I was not an official when I made my comment to him and complemented the ARs for holding it together despite the angry parents. My kids were not playing in that game nor the next one and eventhough I was there to help a friend on the next game no one would know which team I was with.

So to answer your question, no I did not learn anything.
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If you didn’t learn anything, you wasted an excellent opportunity, which at this point makes you equal or worse than the ref you are talking about.
Gotta learn from every experience
 
With my association I have been contacted because of a complaint against the center, It was a stupid complaint and I was surprised that they even contacted me but I know they do get addressed.
 
watfly said:
Is it the parents fault that there are referees that aren't physically fit enough for the job or don't know the rules of the gaming circuit or tourney? Sounds like we need a "C'mon Parents!" subforum.
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There is a very complex answer to what would appear to be an easy question. You may have out of shape younger refs (under 40y/o) that would probably prefer not to be put on a HS age games because they know that they will have trouble keeping up with play. They are assigned to the games because there is no one else. Then you have the out of shape older refs that were once hotshot refs, but are too conceited or vain to admit they should not be working HS age games. They are usually put on games because there is no one else or “the good old boy network.” The majority of assignees will avoid putting new refs in the center, until they get some experience as an AR.

This past weekend I saw several fields with only one or two refs because there just were not enough refs. My last game out of 5 on Saturday, which was late assignment, was a 9v9 no heading. The field next to mine was a B18 that only had two refs. I gave them one of my ARs. Some of the parents complained to their coach that it was not fair that they only got two refs. I heard the coach say to the parents, “It is not a big deal. He is a State Referee and could do this game by himself.” It was nice to hear the coach support a Referee, but also pointed out how clueless the parents can be when it comes to Referee Grade levels, training, and qualifications.

So, the answer to your question is yes and no. If the parents would just cheer for their kid’s team and ignore the refs, than maybe we could get more of these younger fit refs to stick around. We also need to get some of these older slower refs to realize they need to only work the 9v9 and 7v7 games.
 
MWN said:
  1. Referees that don't know the rules? That is 100% on the Referee. However, most of the time its the parents that don't know the rules "Handball, Handball!!!!! (when the ball was kicked from 4 feet away and hit a players arm in .35 seconds from when it was kicked ... dumbass parents that have no understanding what a "handling" foul is ... note, this persists at the U18 level).
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I experience “Soccer stupid” parents almost every weekend. I had a coach, B14, remove two of his parents (both dads) for yelling at me this past weekend. First dad got to leave right after kickoff. The player thriple touched the ball on the kickoff, so I awarded an IDFK to the other team. Dad yells, “What the F%@k are you doing? That’s a do over.” Coach just yelled at me “I got this” and sent dad to his car far away. The other dad got to leave after I gave a Caution (Yellow card) DOGSO (denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity). Dad yelled at me, “Are you stupid? That was denying a goal and a red card.” Coach said, “I got this” and sent dad to the parking lot. After the game the coach apologized to me and said, “I wish we didn’t have any of the fathers at the games. It would be so much quieter and enjoyable.”
 
Surfref said:
We also need to get some of these older slower refs to realize they need to only work the 9v9 and 7v7 games.
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The 9v9 games (especially the 2007 - Flight 3, Presidio, Bronze) are great games to get the young, but experienced Grade 8's good center experience. Just this last weekend my son (14) was assigned his first league center game on a 9v9, I was the AR along with a 19 year old. Then I stepped in and centered the 2006 Flight 1 game. We were able to give him some good feedback. In a another year or so he will be ready to move to the U12's, then U13's and on. Having us older guys on the small sided fields to mentor is what a good association should do.
 
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