Do ref complaints matter?

Discussion in 'C'mon Ref!' started by Monkey, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Monkey

    Monkey Bronze

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    So this weekend, I was watching a mid-level game between teenage girls that obviously had a lot of negative experiences with each other in the past. Near the end of the first half a girl clearly yanked the ponytail of another girl and brought her down. This was off the ball but the AR who was probably late teens saw it and got the attention of the CR who was also pretty young. After a discussion no foul was called. A parent almost got ejected for wanted to show the CR the video.

    At half time, the CR and AR were talking and the CR was explaining how he use to play for the club of the girl that got yanked down and hated the coach. So at that point I could not resist and told them that I was with the ref association and was going to write him up. I left them by saying that he should not have taken an assignment from his old club or any club he could not be objective about.

    This was the game before the game that I was there to watch and my family does not have any affiliation with either club. But I was wondering if the person with the video submitted it to the ref association what is the likely outcome? Would they take any action against the ref with undisputable proof of a video and the AR was a witness? I think the situation was due to the immaturity of the ref and that he might be great if he was not relishing in the coach screaming at him.
     
  2. baldref

    baldref Silver

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    Personally, I would be more likely to send the video to the league showing the girl so she would be suspended. But that's just me.....
     
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  3. Surfref

    Surfref Silver Elite

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    I have to agree with Baldref. Have someone affiliated with the club, DOC, coach, manager, send in the video along with a complaint.

    Don't assume a referee is inexperienced just because they are young. I know some very good refs that are between 16-22 years old.
     
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  4. Monkey

    Monkey Bronze

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    Thank you for your reply. But I am not saying that the referee is inexperienced. I thought he was immature because it appeared that he enjoyed having power over the coach that he did not like. I am sure he does great when his power trip does not get in the way.
     
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  5. Monkey

    Monkey Bronze

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    Good to know. I was under the impression that if the referee does not report a player, that was the end of it.
     
  6. jrcaesar

    jrcaesar Silver

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    I'm troubled that fans and parents think it's perfectly OK to insert themselves into halftime discussions with teenaged referees. Another reason that these late-teen referees quit and do something else.
     
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  7. Monkey

    Monkey Bronze

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    Sorry you are so offended. But I was not there to see that team and I was standing in the shade when they walked over to where I was setting up my tripod. The CR was not a teenage, probably early 20s and in my opinion it is better that I heard him and put a stop to his conversation then one of the parents on the team that he was talking negatively about. The parents were so irate with the non-call of the hair pull down, I am not sure what would have happened if that girl's father heard him.

    In my opinion it was a valuable lesson for him to shut his mouth.
     
  8. jrcaesar

    jrcaesar Silver

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    There are just so many things wrong with the fan's actions described in this story that it would be better for the children if all four teams involved (the two playing, the two in the next game in which a fan attempted to intimidate the referees) were reported to the organizing league for further review.
     
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  9. GKDad65

    GKDad65 Bronze

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    "We" the paying customer need to start holding our Clubs responsible for the quality of officiating at our home games. Anyone can take a weekend course and watch a couple of videos on the internet (while doing something else) and become a "Referee".
    Clubs are just submitting a need to their associations and the associations are just filling spots, no quality assurance, no process improvement, just bodies, and sometimes not even that.
    Where is the emphasis to provide a quality product?

    I applaud the ref's that work to improve their knowledge of the game, unfortunately you are in the minority.

    In the end, it's just youth soccer and not personal.
     
  10. baldref

    baldref Silver

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    One of the problems with “you” the paying customer is, “you” collectively, have no idea what you’re looking at.

    I applaud any “you” who chooses to learn the laws and how they’re applied, unfortunately, you are a huge minority
     
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  11. espola

    espola Silver Elite

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    Nonsense.
     
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  12. watfly

    watfly Silver

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    According to what I've heard from quite a few coaches, ref complaints don't matter. I think the most common response I've heard is that its a "waste of time". Why? I can only guess because there is a shortage of refs and probably because the associations either don't have, or aren't interested in devoting, the resources to investigating ref complaints. But really is that any different to complaints about coaches? We've all seen the refs and coaches that have no business being on the pitch, but there they are week-to-week...year to year despite complaints. Club soccer is not a customer oriented business, in fact, I don't think I've seen a business that complains about or ignores its customers more than the "service providers" within club soccer. But, hey these are 1st world problems and we love to watch our kids play.
     
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  13. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    @GKDad65,
    That isn't how it works.
    You've made a few assumptions that are not accurate and I don't know why you believe there is no process improvement. My experience as both a customer (parent) and Grade 7 Referee is different. I am required to attend at least 5 RPD (Referee Professional Development) courses each year and attend my local Referee Association meetings on a monthly basis where we discuss and review the Cal South monthly educational plan. All referees in my association are required to attend at least 6 of these courses to be a member in good standing. My association also has a referee trainer and mentoring program.

    I need to correct a few of your assumptions:
    • Clubs generally do not engage the referee associations, its the leagues. There may be exceptions, but the leagues work with the Referee Assignors.
    • Referee Associations want to put the more experienced Referees on fields that have older games and the less experienced on fields with youngers. Newer referees are generally assigned to AR for at least a year or two.
    • Associations receive complaints frequently. Most of those complaints about referees tend to be related to judgment calls and lack merit.
    The reality is Referees are independent contractors. Many of the better referees belong to multiple associations and like to work the higher level games (USSDA, ECNL, College, CSL Premier, etc.), which will sometimes leave the Associations with a shortage of experienced and higher level referees. On these weekends, the Referee crews will be reluctantly filled with newer referees.

    As a referee that is assigned to "older" games the biggest problem I experience is with:
    1. Coaches challenging calls.
    2. Parents challenging call.
    When the coach challenges calls, the players then begin to feel empowered to dissent and argue various calls on the field, which then causes the other players to do the same, which then causes the parents to get in on the action and before you know it, that Yellow card foul is now becoming a mass confrontation.

    When it comes to referee assignments, most good referees are assigned to the large venues (Silverlakes, Polo Fields, Oceanside, Galway Downs, San Bernardino, etc.) because the Associations want to keep them working at least a 3 game set (sometimes a 4 game set) and the large venues allow the Associations to move the newer ones in to get training on appropriate games.

    Many clubs use schools and parks that are 1 or 2 fields. These venues tend to get the less experienced crews (not always) because they have few games and/or tend to be the lower level games (bronze, flight 3, AA-C, etc.).

    Finally, there is a constant drive to get referees, recognize those that are good and move them up. These referees often come from the ranks of club players that are 14 and older. Unfortunately, we lose over 1/2 of these new referees after the first year because of a singular reason. Asshole parents and coaches.

    So in conclusion ... its your (the customers) fault that we can't put better crews on the field and are constantly battling to find qualified referees ... not the clubs or associations. Please be respectful when on the sideline, understand that the Referee crew may call a loose game or a tight game ... its all within the rules. Please don't challenge the referee crew ... ever. If you have a coach that is constantly challenging the referees move your kid, the coach is a dick and one of the biggest problems we have with referee retention along with the parents that support this jerk. Let these kids learn their craft and improve without being a-holes to them.
     
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  14. Fact

    Fact Silver

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    @MWN - What dictates whether a ref will call a loose game vs. a tight game? I use to think that is was dependant on the age group playing and skill level (the older and more skilled teams were let to play without constant stoppages). But lately I have had a chance to see some of the more experienced ref at younger games and am now wondering if it is solely based on the ref's philosophy.
     
  15. NumberTen

    NumberTen Bronze

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    BOOM! MIC DROP!
    https://media.giphy.com/media/DfbpTbQ9TvSX6/giphy.gif
     
  16. watfly

    watfly Silver

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    Is it the parents fault that there are referees that aren't physically fit enough for the job or don't know the rules of the gaming circuit or tourney? Sounds like we need a "C'mon Parents!" subforum.
     
  17. coachrefparent

    coachrefparent Silver

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    No, and its not their fault that some NFL, EPL, and international match referees make mistakes as to the rules as well.
     
  18. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    In my case, as I can't speak for others:

    The directives from US Soccer asks referees to manage the game in a way that allows the game to flow with only necessary stoppages of play. I am one of those "loose" referees tending to find careless fouls "trifling" whenever possible if the foul doesn't affect gameplay (i.e. offensive player not affected by jersey pull). The caveat I make is boys of the same level and age tend to be called looser than girls of the same level and age BECAUSE (1) parents of girls are less tolerant of their DD falling to the ground and (2) girls are more prone to injury after puberty compared to boys of the same age.

    Basically, I agree -- Age and Level.

    Loosest: Boys/Girls - Flight 1 / Premier - they generally have good control of their bodies, can anticipate strong (fair) challenges. They also have a tendency to strategically needle their opponents into fouling them, but generally, respect their opponents.

    Loose: Boys: Silver/Gold/Flight 2 - at U16/15 they are becoming men ... still a little gangly and full of misdirected testosterone. This group is actually one of the toughest because these little bastards think its OK to start swinging ... dumbasses.

    Little Tighter: Girls Silver/Gold/Flight 2 - because parents are more sensitive and get sensitive when a strong challenge is made. These girls have a potential future. More so than the boys, but we now have some parents that are much more vocal (f'ing parents, please be quiet). These parents are the most likely to view this game through their rose-colored glasses.

    Looser than REC: U13+ Boys/Girls Flight 3 - basically glorified REC players with better skills. Parents that don't understand that soccer is a contact sport.

    Normal - U11-U12 - Boys are looser and girls are tighter. The parents are proud ("my kid play club soccer ... flight whatever"). This is an easy game because the kids are not A-holes. Only the coaches and parents. The kids are not reckless, just careless. My only issue with these kids is telling the mid-fielder to stop listening to his Dad that is tell him to "not take it from number ??? and push him back." God, I wished this Dad wearing his Raiders cap would shut the f up ... and what is with the neck tattoo on your dad?

    Back to Loose 7v7 - Just play. These little kids don't have any malice in their heart. I leave my yellow and red card in its case. Just play, but stop listening to your Dad telling you to "take it to goal" and listen to your coach.

    Tight - Rec.
     
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  19. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    You raise two issues:
    1. Referees that are not physically fit: Yes, it is the parent's fault. We lose 1/2 of our young, physically fit referees every year because of AHole parents and coaches. These kids were our future. They needed game environments that did not leave them feeling like crap during and after the game and wanting to quit. So absolutely ... parents fault. Because these young fit kids don't want to referee anymore ... it's now up to us older fatter slower guys (me). Do you know how many kids are in my association that have left and/or refuse to Center? (hint its waaaaaaay tooooooo many). Yep, parents and A-hole coaches fault.
    2. Referees that don't know the rules? That is 100% on the Referee. However, most of the time its the parents that don't know the rules "Handball, Handball!!!!! (when the ball was kicked from 4 feet away and hit a players arm in .35 seconds from when it was kicked ... dumbass parents that have no understanding what a "handling" foul is ... note, this persists at the U18 level).
     
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  20. baldref

    baldref Silver

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    Concur. And well said.
     

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