When does winning matter?

If you’re English and watch the premiere league


WESTMORLAND. O that we now had here
But one ten thousand of those men in England
That do no work to-day!

KING. What's he that wishes so?
My cousin, Westmorland? No, my fair cousin;
If we are mark'd to die, we are enough
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmorland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say "To-morrow is Saint Crispian."
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say "These wounds I had on Crispin's day."
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words—
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisburyand Gloucester—
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
 
I used to compete in the amateur category of 24 hour mountain bike races...as part of a 4 man team. There was a dude named Tinker Juarez who raced solo. By sheer luck he would blow by me on every single lap... in my turn, I blew by some riders too.

On any given day, in pretty much any endeavor, there’s gonna be someone faster than you and someone slower. I counted it as a win to be on the same course as Tinker. He was USA’s first Olympic mountain biker.
 
If you play in the MLS and never been to Europe.




Ricky Bobby: Wait, Dad. Don’t you remember the time you told me “If you ain’t first, you’re last”?
Reese Bobby: Huh? What are you talking about, Son?
Ricky Bobby: That day at school.
Reese Bobby: Oh hell, Son, I was high that day. That doesn’t make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth… hell you can even be fifth.
Ricky Bobby: What? I’ve lived my whole life by that!
 
Depends on the person or player. Is winning taught, learned or more natural for some?

Some are just crazy competitive with a built in drive for winning and they would go to great lengths to win even at young ages.

When does too much winning become a distraction?

 
Giesbock said:
I used to compete in the amateur category of 24 hour mountain bike races...as part of a 4 man team. There was a dude named Tinker Juarez who raced solo. By sheer luck he would blow by me on every single lap... in my turn, I blew by some riders too.

On any given day, in pretty much any endeavor, there’s gonna be someone faster than you and someone slower. I counted it as a win to be on the same course as Tinker. He was USA’s first Olympic mountain biker.
Click to expand...
That's called a personal win and that is awesome. You probably know a buddy of mine from Laguna that is bad ass at 53. Crazy dude comes flying down some mountain in Laguna Canyon almost every day. Always moral victories for all of us. Team winning is what I'm all about and so is my dd and that is how companies win and lose. If cancer hits a team, game over. Same thing with a company. Win as a team and lose as a team but my team better try and win or I will get in your grill and get on your ass for not trying. If our team tries 100% and we lose, I keep my head up and that's a "win" we all keep to ourselves. The fact is we lost and were the losers!!! Winning attitude is the only thing one can control!!!
 
Last edited:
Banana Hammock said:
The Dutch aren't winners like the Americans. Maybe 300 years ago but certainly not today. At the Ajax level you are dealing with nothing but winners, you are polishing a diamond not polishing a turd (U.S. pro soccer player). European soccer is a different game altogether. We are 50 years away from being what they have in Europe now. Europeans are not winners and really don't care about winning (generally), so they can sell development.

From a business perspective, marketing a losing club as development is not going to attract much business, and lets not kid ourselves, youth soccer in America is all about business. Winning sells and losing doesn't.

All those qualities that you list in the last paragraph are all highly desirable and honorable, but they are qualities of winners not loser. Show me a kid exhibiting those qualities and I'll show you a winner (both life and soccer). The last sentence is self delusional, what losing club are you paying to develop your kid. Americans win , sometimes they loss but in the end we win.
Click to expand...

We're talking about soccer. I'm pretty comfortable saying that the Dutch have accomplished more in soccer terms than the US. They have only started to get a womens program in place and in no time at all, relatively speaking, they have become European champions and lost in the World Cup final. It didn't take their women's program 50 years, or 20 years to get to that level of accomplishment.

Ajax is a great example of their development approach, but if you think they are not creating winners there, then you need to educate yourself. The Ajax academy is utterly brutal. While they do not care about their teams winning, every player's place is under pressure every day, not only from players in the academy, but also from players all over Holland, Europe and frankly, the world. Their goal is to create players and teams that will win both nationally and in Europe. They do not see winning at any other level as important.

My last sentence isn't delusional. Read about current USWNT players thoughts on "super" teams and how they weren't on those, but developed more, in their opinion, on lesser teams where they had to star & lead. Read about Pusilic and how he turned down "better" (read winning) teams because he was developing more on the existing one because he had to be a leader etc. I pay to have my players developed. They are not on "losing clubs" or losing teams for that matter. If they are not winning, I'm not going to be a whiny spoilt brat and throw my toys out of the pram, and more importantly, neither are they.
 
Giesbock said:
I used to compete in the amateur category of 24 hour mountain bike races...as part of a 4 man team. There was a dude named Tinker Juarez who raced solo. By sheer luck he would blow by me on every single lap... in my turn, I blew by some riders too.

On any given day, in pretty much any endeavor, there’s gonna be someone faster than you and someone slower. I counted it as a win to be on the same course as Tinker. He was USA’s first Olympic mountain biker.
Click to expand...
Tinker is also a class act. I stood by an watched him lose the NORBA national title because he had a second flat and didn't have a tube and back then there was not outside assistance (and they still shouldn't in my opinion). While he was disappointed, he was still smiling and waving to the fans.

You may have blown by me in my only 24 hour race at Vail Lake. That was the course that convinced me to never race again. Why should I pay money to feel like crap on a climb? I can feel like crap on a climb for free any day of the week.
 
outside! said:
Tinker is also a class act. I stood by an watched him lose the NORBA national title because he had a second flat and didn't have a tube and back then there was not outside assistance (and they still shouldn't in my opinion). While he was disappointed, he was still smiling and waving to the fans.

You may have blown by me in my only 24 hour race at Vail Lake. That was the course that convinced me to never race again. Why should I pay money to feel like crap on a climb? I can feel like crap on a climb for free any day of the week.
Click to expand...
Yep, Vail Lake was one of them and I will not forget pushing my bike up a gnarly steep section in the middle of the night and here comes the man with titanium-spring legs, pumping through without slowing down! Cool that you did that. Felt like a win despite overall standings right?
 
Ask Micheal Jordan or Tom Brady. They will tell you since they could pick up a ball.

But you snowflakes go ahead and listen to those in charge of US soccer. It's worked out great for the men. RME.

/End thread.
 
It's not whether it matters, it's whether its the only thing that matters. Winning is just the end result of playing. You play sports to PLAY, not just to win, or there would be a lot less people playing sports. Winning is just the icing on the cake. It's more fun to win but it's the playing the game and getting better at playing the game that provides the motivation to keep playing. My player will always say the team would rather lose in a highly competitive match that win an easy match. Its about PLAYING.

The problem is that the adults have created systems that encourage winning to be the only thing that matters. Mostly to generate money and nothing to do with the perpetuating the joy of sports and supporting our youth community. So development suffers, participation suffers, joy is lost.
 
Winning Rocky Style


Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place, and I don't care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done! Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hits, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you wanna be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain't you. You're better than that! I'm always gonna love you, no matter what. No matter what happens. You're my son and you're my blood. You're the best thing in my life. But until you start believing in yourself, you ain't gonna have a life.
 
From the time scores are kept winning matters, but to what extent does it matter? Winning 8-0 because you are bigger, faster, stronger as 13 year olds doesn't reflect the better team necessarily. 2 years later you win 3-0 because you are still a bit bigger, faster and stronger. 2 years after that the score is reversed 3-0 because the previously losing team was developing over those 4 years as well as still growing to be as big, as strong and as fast. Did winning at 13 year olds matter sure it did, you might have still drawn other girls to the club to keep the winning going and money rolling in, but you weren't developing anything and finally the other Club caught up maturity wise and probably along the way added a couple of families who saw what was happening or heard what was happening and moved over. Which team would you rather be a player on or a parent of? I know where my daughters stand on that. I know there are always those families jumping from club to club at the promise of being the next big thing at the currently winning club, but for me that is chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbows because in the end there are way too many variables for guaranteess of winning in youth sports. In the grand scheme of life sport is way more than winning unless you are getting paid and to that end winning only matters if it gets you paid -- Larry Brown!
 
whatithink said:
They have only started to get a womens program in place and in no time at all, relatively speaking, they have become European champions and lost in the World Cup final. It didn't take their women's program 50 years, or 20 years to get to that level of accomplishment.
Click to expand...
Actually, the Orange Leeuwinnen played their first International Game (recognized by FIFA) on April 17th, 1971 and lost 4-0 to France. So it actually took them 48 years to make it to 2nd place in the WC (2019) and 46 to become European Champions (2017).

I do agree with the rest of your post.
 
Kicker4Life said:
Actually, the Orange Leeuwinnen played their first International Game (recognized by FIFA) on April 17th, 1971 and lost 4-0 to France. So it actually took them 48 years to make it to 2nd place in the WC (2019) and 46 to become European Champions (2017).

I do agree with the rest of your post.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I get that, but I'm really referring to a coordinated approach, investment & associated infrastructure from the national FA. That didn't happen until the early 2000s, hence my less than 20 years inference.
 
BIGD said:
Made up systems created by adults to serve the adults. (describing needing to win to move up a division)
Click to expand...
nonsense. pro/rel is designed to make the game more fun. mismatched games are boring. close games are fun.

If my kids team moves down a bracket, it just means the old bracket was the wrong place. Every time it has happened for us, the new bracket has been more fun than the old one.

Same thing for moving up. Every time they moved up, it was because the old games were mismatches, and the new bracket turned out to be more fun than the old one.

The only problems are when one of the parents feels insulted by the demotion. That path leads to madness.

If you trust the system and look forward to the new season, it’s pretty fun.
 
Everybody likes to win...but I'll take individual development over winning all day long. Developing a winning mentality (ability to compete to the end, mental toughness, having an impact on a game) is a part of individual development, should be emphasized at an early age and is more important than the actual end result/scoreline.
 
I've always thought winning v development is a sliding scale that starts at whatever point the participants start keeping score. Even at the highest levels, development never fully disappears and even at the lowest levels (if you are keeping score) results have some relevance (as mentioned before, learning how to win and lose w/grace can and should start at that level (I can remember when my son (now 21) was in preschool and we went to a seder; he found the afikomen but the other kids were PISSED; he would have been fine if he hadn't b/c we had been talking about winning and losing since forever - watching sports, playing games, etc. - while the other kids, I guess, had never "lost" and did not know how).

Often, development is more important than the result - say, a college exhibition game where you can get freshmen their first exposure or a minor league baseball game when you are moving a stud 20yo from 3B to 2B b/c the 3B at the big club is a perennial all-star. But sometimes the result is more important - say, an elimination game in a teen-level national playoff or when a win means an NCAA bid or the start of the off-season. But even in the elimination games, development matters and with the minor league baseball game (or college exhibition), the result still carries importance. But whether it is 90-10 or 80-20 or 15-85, etc., depends on the circumstances.
 
SoccerGuru said:
I read a post with someone attacking another parent for wanting to win. I do agree that U12 anf below the focus shouldn't be all about winning. Development in this sport is very important but at a certain point the kiddos need to learn that results matter. If you don't get results you can don't keep your job, if you don't do well on enough tests, you don't get the grades that get you into your dream school. I know, there are other factors but stay with me here. At what age does winning matter? I have spoken to a few parents that say "I don't care about results" but then see them throwing hats and screaming on the sideline at their kid and saying negative things about other parents children. My thought was that if you teach them that winning matters too late, when it does matter, like college showcases, they won't have that will to win or a few of the other qualities colleges look for. Also, college will be tough for them as they may not understand that they can no longer make mistakes over and over because a coach's job is on the line and they will play the best players. I may be looking at this wrong so if someone can give me a different way to look, I am open to it. I just always wondered when does winning matter?
Click to expand...
For the most part I feel Winning matters and is relevant from about U12-U14, basically first 2 years of 11v11. Two big reasons. First is In small sided games the years before that Kickball Reins supreme. So while many coaches utilized the SS games to develop and get more touches in close space as it’s intended for, just as many utilize it to win games over those teams. In short sided games a big boot can carry a whole team. Mix that with a big kid to run em down and it’s a wrap at that age. Hardly have to play real soccer at all. Fast forward those same teams to 11v11 and it rarely translates. So while winning at that age is great and all they end up being empty wins down the road. Now on to The years following U14 ish teams should likely be playing mostly college showcases which the score becomes irrelevant as there’s no trophies to hand out. Get to college and the winning matters again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top