Vaccine

[dad4]

The original claim was that human sexual characteristics are binary. The reality is there are exceptions that reveal the plasticity of the biology. It's a fact that the X can impact the phenotypic penetrance of the Y. In genetics, the exceptions almost always prove the rule. That was my original point.

So it moves, somewhat predictably, to "chromosomally normal", by which I imagine you mean chromosome copy number. Does that provide a clean cut bracketing of "fairness" in sport competition? Well, if you want it to, but that is strictly user defined. Not all X's not all Y's, not all autosomes, are created equal with respect to their contribution to a given trait. Take any metric you want. Height for instance-well studied example. Studies of monozygotic twins raised apart, etc, indicate about ~85% of human height is genetically determined, nurture be damned. Youth soccer coaches are intuitive population geneticists. Little U8 Jr. walks up with mom and dad to the tryout and coach places mom and dad on a percentile, halves the difference. Depending on the values of the coach, Little Jr. makes the cut or not, even if they had good moments on the pitch. To the extent that variance in a distribution for an individual trait can be attributed to genetics the overall message is that life is not fair. Take individuals close to the median. Give them their 10,000 hrs. Do they become outliers? Youth sports, sure, but don't go complaining about it to Li-Fraumeni families.

So it seems ironic to me to try and adopt a genetic parameter as a criterion of fairness, when ithe overall message of genetics is that, from a human value standpoint, competitive advantage is intrinsically unfair. That's not a rabbit hole. It is a direct, and, from my perspective, important, extension of the argument. Perhaps that is why sport actually exists in the first place, to provide a means to show that chance and pluck matter despite it all.

Look, I read what you wrote about Alan Turing. I know your heart is in the right place. But dragging genetics into human value framing issues with adjectives like normal and elite (OK that was the other post) leads PDQ to some historically dark terrain.

Mostly, I just want my kids to be able to have a fun experience with sports, and I want the same for other people’s kids.

At the rec level, a trans kid on a youth sports team, like any other kid on a sports team, is a good thing.

As you get closer to college sports, it gets different. All of a sudden, you have tryouts and cuts. It becomes a zero sum game. If Emma has a place, it means that Susie does not.

And, once you make it a zero sum game, fairness really matters. Placing mtf trans athletes in the women’s events is not a fair solution.

 

[Emma]

The "conflicts" have been resolved in favor of allowing transgender participation in women's sports. This was resolved 20 years ago with the IOC and more than a decade ago with the NCAA.

Yes, I can use the word transphobic when it is appropriate, and it is appropriate when someone cannot even accept the legitimacy of the arguments in support of transgender participation in women's sports. It is also transphobic when people make fake and irrational arguments to oppose transgender participation, such as "it's dangerous" when we're talking about someone swimming in a pool and no one in NCAA history has ever been injured in over a decade because a transgender woman participated in college sports or how the 19th century definition of "woman" is a sports rulebook, or how a transgender woman in the restroom means the end of the world. The problem here has nothing to do with me being "unwilling" to understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports. I understand them quite well. The problem is that people like you and your more obviously transphobic friends cannot understand and accept the arguments against transgender participation in women's sports. I've weighed the pros and cons and picked one side, but you and your friends aren't willing to weigh anything. You can't even muster the willingness to accept that there are legitimate arguments on the other side of the debate. Instead, you're making ridiculous claims that "no one wants to stop transgenders from enjoying their lives or living their best lives", which is utter rubbish and you know it. You and your friends obviously want them out of sports. You want them out of the women's restroom. You want them out of being able to get married if they're in love with someone of the same biological gender, which also means you want them out of the favorable tax and intestate succession laws you enjoy. You want them out of any business that doesn't want to sell services or products to them. You want to be able to keep mocking them like micpapa because you think it's funny. It isn't funny for the reasons the Utah governor tried to veto the law.

There you go making assumptions about me and my friends, again.

Are you saying Caitlyn Jenner is transphobic? She has the same view I do regarding women's high level competitive sports.

None of the positions you spoke above reflect me and my friends. I probably have one or two but they've been childhood friends I can't remove from my life because they add a lot of humor to it.

The NCAA has realized they need to change the old rules too. They are going to let each sport decide how to manage the situation.

I support people living their lives the way they want to.

You seem to be having a problem with understanding that two working minds can have differing positions, and that's very closed minded of you.

Everyday, I have to balance out my desires and needs vs society (other human beings in the world). The problem with your position is, you're asking people to not balance any of society's needs with transgender needs. You're asking society to just give in to transgender desires regardless of how it may affect others. While I do support most of what my transgender fellow human beings want, I also support women competing at a high level and scientifically, they can't compete against biological male at the highest level.

I have read a lot of information and taken a lot of time to consider my position. As a society we are pushing each other to create a solution that will work out, as the IOC and NCAA and currently figuring it out too and changing their rules constantly.

The restroom thing - most people are not concerned about transgenders, but they were concerned about the straight jerks, child molesters, or perverts, who would abuse the rule and go into the girl's restrooms. Unisex bathrooms, family bathrooms and single stalls were a good solution.

 

[GoldenGate]

Your zig zag skills are amazing. Why are you insisting that transwomen aren't being treated fairly? I see that my use of he in reference to the time period when she trained and competed as a he offends you. Get over it, it's fact that she was a he before she was a she. Biologically she is still a he. Why are you so afraid of that? Interesting. She can identify however she wants, not opposed to it, could really care less. But the willfull avoidance of science and your continued ridiculous accusations creates such a clownlike environment that you can hardly be taken serious.

You clearly care very much. Why does it bother you so much to refer to a transgender woman as "she"? Language and grammar is not "biology", and many languages don't even use different gender pronouns. Man, it must drive you nuts when people identify their preferred gender pronouns on their email signature lines.

Can you explain again why "science' makes it impossible for a transgender woman to swim in a race against biological women? I'm having a hard time believing that given that we have all seen it actually happen. That, of course, stands in contrast to an all powerful invisible man in the sky who told everyone to kill trans women up until he changed his mind. Can you please explain the "science" behind that while you're at it.

 

[GoldenGate]

Mostly, I just want my kids to be able to have a fun experience with sports, and I want the same for other people’s kids.

At the rec level, a trans kid on a youth sports team, like any other kid on a sports team, is a good thing.

As you get closer to college sports, it gets different. All of a sudden, you have tryouts and cuts. It becomes a zero sum game. If Emma has a place, it means that Susie does not.

And, once you make it a zero sum game, fairness really matters. Placing mtf trans athletes in the women’s events is not a fair solution.

No one was cut from the Penn swim team to make room for Lia Thomas. Regardless, if you're the worst swimmer on Penn's swim team of more than 40, it is time to move on in life.

If you want your kids to have fun in sports, rec puts a real premium on that, so feel free to steer your kid in that direction. I know it's getting hard to for biological women to find college soccer teams now that trans women have taken over the game and all, so it's beginning to sound like that's the best place for snowflakes anyway.

 

[GoldenGate]

There you go making assumptions about me and my friends, again.

Are you saying Caitlyn Jenner is transphobic? She has the same view I do regarding women's high level competitive sports.

None of the positions you spoke above reflect me and my friends. I probably have one or two but they've been childhood friends I can't remove from my life because they add a lot of humor to it.

The NCAA has realized they need to change the old rules too. They are going to let each sport decide how to manage the situation.

I support people living their lives the way they want to.

You seem to be having a problem with understanding that two working minds can have differing positions, and that's very closed minded of you.

Everyday, I have to balance out my desires and needs vs society (other human beings in the world). The problem with your position is, you're asking people to not balance any of society's needs with transgender needs. You're asking society to just give in to transgender desires regardless of how it may affect others. While I do support most of what my transgender fellow human beings want, I also support women competing at a high level and scientifically, they can't compete against biological male at the highest level.

I have read a lot of information and taken a lot of time to consider my position. As a society we are pushing each other to create a solution that will work out, as the IOC and NCAA and currently figuring it out too and changing their rules constantly.

The restroom thing - most people are not concerned about transgenders, but they were concerned about the straight jerks, child molesters, or perverts, who would abuse the rule and go into the girl's restrooms. Unisex bathrooms, family bathrooms and single stalls were a good solution.

The IOC, NCAA and I have all balanced out society's needs with transgender needs, unlike you. We have decided that a swim meet in a pool is not important compared to the need to overcome the shitty way you and your friends have treated transgender women. Again, "equality" is not a la carte. I do like how you relabel "constant abuse of transgender women" as "giving in to transgender desires". That's really high level transphobia.

Enjoy rec soccer. I'd recommend swimming as an alternative, but it looks like the trans women beat you there also.

 

[met61]

Mostly, I just want my kids to be able to have a fun experience with sports, and I want the same for other people’s kids.

At the rec level, a trans kid on a youth sports team, like any other kid on a sports team, is a good thing.

As you get closer to college sports, it gets different. All of a sudden, you have tryouts and cuts. It becomes a zero sum game. If Emma has a place, it means that Susie does not.

And, once you make it a zero sum game, fairness really matters. Placing mtf trans athletes in the women’s events is not a fair solution.

...history has proven the road to hell is paved with good intentions...and @dad4, I sincerely believe your intentions are good, just somewhat naive and misguided.

Unfortunately you, and too many like you, make two key mistakes...1. believing if you compromise the truth for rec sports, the left will stop there...2. believing the left has good intentions.

...whereas, the truth speaks for itself...and requires nothing more from you than standing up for it.

 

[dad4]

No one was cut from the Penn swim team to make room for Lia Thomas. Regardless, if you're the worst swimmer on Penn's swim team of more than 40, it is time to move on in life.

If you want your kids to have fun in sports, rec puts a real premium on that, so feel free to steer your kid in that direction. I know it's getting hard to for biological women to find college soccer teams now that trans women have taken over the game and all, so it's beginning to sound like that's the best place for snowflakes anyway.

For the most part, the transgender people I know have opinions closer to Emma or Watfly. They are aware of what treatments can and cannot do, and they are acutely aware of the difficulty of fitting in. Browbeating their way into a women’s sporting event is the last thing they would do.

The vitriol on the left in this comes from gay men who want to believe their own rhetoric, but know no more about transition than the average straight person.

 

[dad4]

...history has proven the road to hell is paved with good intentions...and @dad4, I sincerely believe your intentions are good, just somewhat naive and misguided.

Unfortunately you, and too many like you, make two key mistakes...1. believing if you compromise the truth for rec sports, the left will stop there...2. believing the left has good intentions.

...whereas, the truth speaks for itself...and requires nothing more from you than standing up for it.

I have no illusion that the progressive left will stop at rec sports.

But I have coached a rec team with a trans kid. Unless the particular child poses an issue with safety or fair play, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[Emma]

The IOC, NCAA and I have all balanced out society's needs with transgender needs, unlike you. We have decided that a swim meet in a pool is not important compared to the need to overcome the shitty way you and your friends have treated transgender women. Again, "equality" is not a la carte. I do like how you relabel "constant abuse of transgender women" as "giving in to transgender desires". That's really high level transphobia.

Enjoy rec soccer. I'd recommend swimming as an alternative, but it looks like the trans women beat you there also.

Constant abuse? one instant in which I do think they need to compromise and work through is constant abuse to you?

You underestimate the transgender population if you think asking them to work with others is considered abusing them.

 

[met61]

No one was cut from the Penn swim team to make room for Lia Thomas. Regardless, if you're the worst swimmer on Penn's swim team of more than 40, it is time to move on in life.

If you want your kids to have fun in sports, rec puts a real premium on that, so feel free to steer your kid in that direction. I know it's getting hard to for biological women to find college soccer teams now that trans women have taken over the game and all, so it's beginning to sound like that's the best place for snowflakes anyway.

...15 women qualify for the College Women's Swimming National Finals. By allowing a man to complete, Will Thomas prevented the #16 woman to compete in something she has worked and trained her whole life for...and since she is a senior, this was her last chance.

...your words and lies are clearly expected and pathetic towards women...but it is the lies and degrading of women by the NCAA that I find absolutely disgusting and worthy of public and direct backlash.

 

[GoldenGate]

Constant abuse? one instant in which I do think they need to compromise and work through is constant abuse to you?

You underestimate the transgender population if you think asking them to work with others is considered abusing them.

I love how you substitute "do what I want" for "work with others". Transgender men and women very much work with others, so much so that they've worked with the NCAA for over a decade and the IOC for two. The only ones who refuse to work with others are those like you who want to ban them from women's sports.

Enjoy losing. You losing on transgender participation in women's sports, and your daughter losing to all those scary transgender opponents. So scary.

 

[met61]

I have no illusion that the progressive left will stop at rec sports.

But I have coached a rec team with a trans kid. Unless the particular child poses an issue with safety or fair play, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

...I have also coached rec sports and there was always a limit to the amount of players that could be accommodated on teams and the league as a whole...was this also the case with your coaching experience?

Additionally, I've had my own kid miss a rec sports season because slots filled up before the sign up deadline.

 

[GoldenGate]

I have no illusion that the progressive left will stop at rec sports.

But I have coached a rec team with a trans kid. Unless the particular child poses an issue with safety or fair play, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I'm sorry you're going to hell because you don't hate transgender people enough. Carry on trying to have "equality" a la carte so you can keep transgender women away from what is important to you, while ignoring what your non lefty friends like met61 are doing to finish the job outside the pool or pitch. Do you think your friends will stop after refusing to sell them products and services? Maybe spitting on them too? Prevent them from getting married to someone of the same biological gender? Or go all the way and beat them to death?

 

[Emma]

I love how you substitute "do what I want" for "work with others". Transgender men and women very much work with others, so much so that they've worked with the NCAA for over a decade and the IOC for two. The only ones who refuse to work with others are those like you who want to ban them from women's sports.

Enjoy losing. You losing on transgender participation in women's sports, and your daughter losing to all those scary transgender opponents. So scary.

Thanks for translating my English to your English? I support your rigourous defending of transgender even if I disagree with this one instance. I'm not sure you're helping the cause with your hatred and unwillingness to see things from other people's perspective.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

It's amazing what the human mind can rationalize if the desire is strong enough. Mid-terms are going to be even more interesting if this board is truly representative of our population and there really are that many people who buy into this gaslighting narrative and say it out loud. I can't wait to hear candidates define what a "woman" is. I'm thinking with the right definition, we may find they are over-represented in areas we thought that they were under-represented. We have so much to learn. Hahahaha!

This is and should be a non-issue. Only those conditioned to respond to the stimuli and those actually involved could give a rat’s ass.

 

[what-happened]

You clearly care very much. Why does it bother you so much to refer to a transgender woman as "she"? Language and grammar is not "biology", and many languages don't even use different gender pronouns. Man, it must drive you nuts when people identify their preferred gender pronouns on their email signature lines.

Can you explain again why "science' makes it impossible for a transgender woman to swim in a race against biological women? I'm having a hard time believing that given that we have all seen it actually happen. That, of course, stands in contrast to an all powerful invisible man in the sky who told everyone to kill trans women up until he changed his mind. Can you please explain the "science" behind that while you're at it.

there you go again, zig, zagging and clowning. I don't have an issue with referring to a transgender women as a she - you just want it to be so. The word salad in bold above demonstrates how much of a clown you are. You really do very little for the causes you carry in your brain, unable to effectively navigate the real world.

By the way, science doesnt make it impossible for a transwoman to race against a biological women. The science is clear on how unfair that race will always be. If you fail to make that connection, then you have other issues that need to be addressed. If she was a he post puberty, the advantage is always going to be with the she that was a he. And if you find this offensive, then so be it. Science, like nature, tends to reveal the truth.

 

[GoldenGate]

Thanks for translating my English to your English? I support your rigourous defending of transgender even if I disagree with this one instance. I'm not sure you're helping the cause with your hatred and unwillingness to see things from other people's perspective.

I fully understand your perspective. I have said many times I understand your perspective, but I believe the arguments against trans participation in women's sports is outweighed by the important reasons in support - just like the IOC, just like the NCAA, just like a lot of people. The only ones who are unwilling to see things from the other people's perspective are people like you. Other than watfly, none of the transphobes here will accept that any legitimate reason exists in support of trans participation in women's sports. Watfly had a moment of honest conversation and, go figure, I treated him with dignity and respect. But you and the others refuse to treat trans women with dignity and respect, so you get what you deserve.

If seeing things from other people's perspective is important, then great, explain what are the legitimate reasons why the NCAA and IOC allow trans participation in women's sports. Let's see your ability to understand someone else's perspective. I have no gripe with anyone who believes that those reasons are outweighed by legitimate countervailing reasons, but the problem is you won't even acknowledge the legitimacy of the reasons for allowing trans participation in women's sports. Because you and others won't, you get what you deserve.

Remember, though, God is watching and will punish you if you say anything supportive of a transgender woman. In fact, @dad4 is apparently going to hell for saying they should at least be allowed to play rec sports.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

...history has proven the road to hell is paved with good intentions...and @dad4, I sincerely believe your intentions are good, just somewhat naive and misguided.

Unfortunately you, and too many like you, make two key mistakes...1. believing if you compromise the truth for rec sports, the left will stop there...2. believing the left has good intentions.

...whereas, the truth speaks for itself...and requires nothing more from you than standing up for it.

Seems both ends of the political spectrum want to dictate policy. On the far left we get the “everyone gets a trophy” nonsense and on the far right we get those that don’t fit the mold being beaten and tortured to death.

 

[dad4]

...I have also coached rec sports and there was always a limit to the amount of players that could be accommodated on teams and the league as a whole...was this also the case with your coaching experience?

Additionally, I've had my own kid miss a rec sports season because slots filled up before the sign up deadline.

Our biggest problem was coaches, not fields.

More to the point, having one fewer boy and one more girl would not make any impact at all on overall field space. The boys and the girls all got the same size practice field.

 

[GoldenGate]

there you go again, zig, zagging and clowning. I don't have an issue with referring to a transgender women as a she - you just want it to be so. The word salad in bold above demonstrates how much of a clown you are. You really do very little for the causes you carry in your brain, unable to effectively navigate the real world.

By the way, science doesnt make it impossible for a transwoman to race against a biological women. The science is clear on how unfair that race will always be. If you fail to make that connection, then you have other issues that need to be addressed. If she was a he post puberty, the advantage is always going to be with the she that was a he. And if you find this offensive, then so be it. Science, like nature, tends to reveal the truth.

So now you're admitting the dictionary isn't the sports rulebook? Progress!

I think what you're saying is that college sports is so sacred to you that even a modest biological advantage to a transgender woman doesn't outweigh the effort to overcome systemic discrimination and abuse in life suffered everywhere else? You're saying "equality" should come a la carte and, because swimming in a pool gives transgender women too much of an advantage in life, it outweighs all the disadvantages they have everywhere else? You're saying transgender women have it so great in life that it's unfair to give them even more advantages in a swim race? That's your argument in a nutshell, right? Or do you also believe it is a safety issue because she might use her physical advantages to maim or even kill one of her swim competitors?

 

[GoldenGate]

Seems both ends of the political spectrum want to dictate policy. On the far left we get the “everyone gets a trophy” nonsense and on the far right we get those that don’t fit the mold being beaten and tortured to death.

Don't forget that the far left also occasionally causes property damage when the far right gets away with beating and torturing people to death.