USWNT
- Thread starter soccerobserver
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What's dumb?
Yup.
No, "sexism" would be in thinking that women soccer players are inherently less valuable as entertainment because of subjective criteria relating to being females and not directly relevant to the task. Once you use objective criteria such as strength and speed and skill to the consideration AND apply that criteria broadly, then you fall outside of the definition. For example, if somebody were to say:
"I don't watch women's soccer because they are far too emotional." <--- That's sexism
"I don't watch girl's soccer because its a boys sports." <--- That's sexism
"Women don't make good coaches because the are too empathetic." <--- That's sexism
"I don't like watching any soccer, other than the European First Division leagues." <--- Not sexism
"I find the entertainment value very low for all pro and semi-pro leagues that are not the MLS in the U.S., which includes the USL Champions, USL-1, USL-2, NWSL, UPSL, etc." <--- Not sexism.
I personally, enjoy watching women's college basketball because they play below the rim and in my view it is a purer form of the sport. I tend to avoid watching the NBA and NCAA-Mens. Its not sexism because my reason is based on an objective standard relating to the quality of the entertainment. For those that find the greatest entertainment value in the speed and physicality of professional soccer games, its not sexism as long as its applied in a gender neutral manner and implicates other forms, such as, youth, college, high school, and the lower professional division.
By simply throwing around words like "sexism" for anything female related, you risk devaluing the word.
Soccerfan2
GOLD
No, it is not based on an “objective standard relating to the quality of the entertainment”. That is YOUR subjective standard. I, and many others, enjoy watching all levels of soccer (and other sports) involving boys, girls, men and women.
“When the average Flight 1/Gold/Premiere Boys U16 team can easily destroy every NWSL team there shouldn't be any doubt as to why the NWSL will never succeed as an entertainment vehicle.” <—sexism is THE biggest obstacle for it to succeed as an entertainment vehicle.
We disagree on the fine point of "why." Some may refuse to watch NWSL games based solely on the fact the players are women, thus, sexism would be an appropriate claim. Others may refuse to watch NWSL games (and semi-pro and college games of both genders) based solely on the fact that the speed of the game is slower and/or the skill of the players do not represent the highest level of ability as demonstrated by players from the First Divisions, which would not be sexism. "Why" a decision is a necessary requirement in any discrimination claim.
So let me try this again taking a more legal approach. Sexism is discrimination based on sex. Discrimination based on sex is illegal and wrong, unless there is an objective and reasonable justification that cannot be mitigated. For example,
Denying men gynecological medical procedures is objectively reasonable discrimination because men to not have ovaries, vaginas, etc.
Denying employment to pilots who are blind is objectively reasonable discrimination because pilots need the ability to fly under VFR (visual flight rules) in the event of an instrument failure.
You shouldn't simply apply a discriminatory label without understanding the "why."
Soccerfan2
GOLD
MWN, you’ve made a great attempt at logic here, but you fell short. I’m sure being the lawyer that you are, you were taught to consider the purpose and impact of law.
Arguing that women’s basketball is objectively valuable entertainment but women’s soccer is not because speed and physicality applies in one case and not the other, and “pure form of the game” applies in one case and not the other makes no sense. You tried hard to back yourself out of that corner and I applaud your effort. I don’t think your opinion is intellectually honest. That’s just my opinion though.
If a hypothetical person were to be fully supportive of women as different but equally capable, valuable athletes and they came to the conclusion that they didn’t watch any women’s soccer because they just didn’t like watching anything but the highest level of soccer, then ok, yes, I agree with you. But that is not reality and that is not how most people feel. College football and March Madness and heck even the little league World Series all get watched for a reason - people enjoy watching sports at all levels. Why they don’t watch women’s sports as much as they watch lower level versions of other sports goes much deeper.
Arguing that women’s basketball is objectively valuable entertainment but women’s soccer is not because speed and physicality applies in one case and not the other, and “pure form of the game” applies in one case and not the other makes no sense. You tried hard to back yourself out of that corner and I applaud your effort. I don’t think your opinion is intellectually honest. That’s just my opinion though.
If a hypothetical person were to be fully supportive of women as different but equally capable, valuable athletes and they came to the conclusion that they didn’t watch any women’s soccer because they just didn’t like watching anything but the highest level of soccer, then ok, yes, I agree with you. But that is not reality and that is not how most people feel. College football and March Madness and heck even the little league World Series all get watched for a reason - people enjoy watching sports at all levels. Why they don’t watch women’s sports as much as they watch lower level versions of other sports goes much deeper.
That's part of your problem, they are equally valuable they are NOT equally capable. I am currently watching a Barca game where a just under 17 year old started for Barca today. Sorry there is not a female soccer player that I know of anywhere that would start on that team. That 17 year old is better than any female player on the planet. Thus not equally capable. I watch 4-6 hours of La liga and EPL every weekend. I have watched less than 15 minutes of NWSL this year. Its just not entertaining and frankly painful to watch. To each his own opinions. My daughter does not even watch women's soccer and I can guarantee you she watches more soccer than anyone on her team. It all comes down to entertainment. If its not entertaining people do not watch. Sorry not sexist. Kind of like music. I have musical tastes, I listen to that type of music and I pay to see that type of music. Others I don't listen to nor do I pay to see. Same with my futbol. If its not up to my standard of what I like to see I don't watch. And I am passionate about my futbol. I have other things to do. In a country that is not rabid and passionate about the best soccer on the planet what makes you think they will have any interest in women's soccer?
outside!
DA
Of course no female can start on Barca, men are much stronger and faster. Men also have the advantage of a playing environment that has over 100 years of development. Is that 17 year old actually more skilled than Marta or Macario? He may have a more developed soccer IQ since he has been able to play against more players with high IQ, but is he actually more skilled? Women generally have faster reflexes than men due to their on average smaller size and lower muscle mass. Look at a sport that has seen roughly equal opportunities for men and women over the years like gymnastics. While the men jump higher and display more strength, the women spin faster and change direction more quickly. As more women soccer players are exposed to high level play and the game develops, expect to see the women doing things in way that the men cannot. The people that say the the USWNT gets beat by U16 boys teams miss the fact that the men's superior speed makes up for many mistakes. If you want to compare males playing against females, look at the ages when they are roughly the same size and speed like U8 or U7.
Soccerfan2
GOLD
In
I don’t know who “they” is. I guess people just like you? I have interest in women’s soccer. There’s quite a bit of data to show that others do too, in increasing numbers. But yes, to each her own.
I don't think comparing other sports to soccer and why we watch it and others don't makes sense especially in the USA where soccer isn't king for many reasons but technically speaking for us soccer fans I feel we enjoy watching the beautiful game when it is played well no matter who is playing it's a great game to watch even a random Gu9 flight 2 game when it's well played regardless of the level of athletic ability good soccer is good soccer so I feel the male better athletes than female argument is lame when it comes to soccer.
I also feel that there is nothing wrong or sexist at all by having the opinion that the best soccer players in the world play in the men's professional leagues in Europe and choosing to follow that over all other professional or amateur soccer leagues
For me personally I watch and follow a lot of sports. As far as soccer goes the club in England I support in number 1 follow then the rest of the EPL and uefa champions and europa league along with USWNT USMNT and FIFA competions then probably last just before everything else is women's college soccer mainly because I watch it with my daughter and watching local players. All other soccer MLS and men's college included I enjoy it when I stumble upon it. As far as NWSL I am clueless. I didn't even know the championship game was on Sunday I guess I was busy watching NFL. I did go to a thorns vs reign match when in Portland a few years ago and it was awesome! I'll watch it when stumbling across it but if they hope to grab me as a follower to help grow the sport it probably ain't gonna happen and that has nothing to do with quality or lack of it at all. If any of you posters on her has a daughter playing and it's telivised let us know hell yeah I'll watch
I also feel that there is nothing wrong or sexist at all by having the opinion that the best soccer players in the world play in the men's professional leagues in Europe and choosing to follow that over all other professional or amateur soccer leagues
For me personally I watch and follow a lot of sports. As far as soccer goes the club in England I support in number 1 follow then the rest of the EPL and uefa champions and europa league along with USWNT USMNT and FIFA competions then probably last just before everything else is women's college soccer mainly because I watch it with my daughter and watching local players. All other soccer MLS and men's college included I enjoy it when I stumble upon it. As far as NWSL I am clueless. I didn't even know the championship game was on Sunday I guess I was busy watching NFL. I did go to a thorns vs reign match when in Portland a few years ago and it was awesome! I'll watch it when stumbling across it but if they hope to grab me as a follower to help grow the sport it probably ain't gonna happen and that has nothing to do with quality or lack of it at all. If any of you posters on her has a daughter playing and it's telivised let us know hell yeah I'll watch
Did you really say that? Macario and Marta? Yeah he is pretty much more skilled, faster, quicker, stronger, better IQ should I go on and on? And no the stepovers, the dekes, the passing, the ball strikes, the acceleration are all quicker, stronger faster with the 16 year old boys. Why do you think that around U15-16 is were the special women players quit with the boys? Just ask any SoCal club coach? Why do you think players like Macario and Marta quit playing against the boys at a certain age? Should we also compare women hockey players with the men? We'll play no check like the women do. Who do you think will win. And finally please tell me what special skill you think a female soccer player is going to eventually do better than a male? You have got to be kidding.
They would be most of the affectionados that I hang with, and most of the coaches I hang with unless it is imperative for their job to watch the women's game. And apparently from the attendance I see at college games and the posted attendance for NWSL games I am not alone.
I am currently the only poster on this board that posts semi regularly that has a kid that has a Natty to her name which may change around December for some other folk but as of now is i am it. So I do have a bit of insight into the women's game.
And before you go off and call me a sexist fascist pig ( a little pun) please realize I am the only regular poster on this board whose daughter has won an NCAA D1 Natty and 4 other National championships at the youth soccer level. And I also think as do many others that she plays like a boy and that is the best compliment you can ever give her! Just ask her.
Equating strength and speed with skill. There is no dispute that many female soccer players have the same intelligence and mastery of various ball skills as the best male players. But when you accelerate the various elements additional skills present themselves. Moreover, and this is an important point, the game is played with 22 players. When all 22 are playing their respective positions at the highest level of athleticism, its far more entertaining. I actually love it when some defender successfully shuts down Messi, when a GK flies through the air from post to post to stop a well placed shot, when a striker nails a goal by bending the ball around a wall from 30 yards out, and when a team (men or women) connect 19 consecutive passes on their way to a goal.
Discrimination is a two edged sword, there are those that are rewarded and those that lose. With limited entertainment dollars and time available, there is nothing wrong with choosing to support semi-professional women's soccer (I say semi-pro because the majority of the players are not paid a living wage). Its technically sexist to go to a NWSL game because they are women, just as it would be to avoid a game for the same reason. If anybody finds good entertainment value watching an NWSL game, then good for you.
Ultimately, we all need to appreciate that this is nothing more than entertainment. Athletes are the same as Actors, Musicians, Dancers, and even Strippers. They are entertainers and whatever the sport, need to compete for entertainment dollars with the the other leagues, which are all chasing a finite amount of entertainment dollars.
Yeesh. Top female soccer players, on average, cannot beat top male soccer players.
That doesn't mean I won't buy season tickets if NWSL ever creates a team near me. I totally will. But it is silly to pretend that NC Courage could beat an EPL team.
The US womens national team regularly plays scimmages against 15 to 16-year-old boys teams (ODP or DA). They regularly lose badly. The boys have a ball.
outside!
DA
When I said "skill" I was referring to ball handling skills, not speed/strength. You seem to confuse the two. Teams with players that are faster and stronger often beat teams that are more skilled, it happens in u-littles all the time.