Tournament Point System
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GunninGopher
SILVER ELITE
WOW!!!I don't like that system at all.
Every 10 point tournament I've been around over the last 5 years I've been involved in youth soccer, as a parent, manager and referee, awards up to 3 points per goal scored for both the winning and losing team. It has probably been about 25 of them from AYSO rec tournaments to higher level competitive. The only deviations I recall seeing are where one tournament only awarded 2 points for a tie and now this one, which didn't award the shutout point if it was a tie.
The 3 point system works well when you have a lot of games, but when you are only looking at 3 or 4 games, the 10 point system is superior, in my opinion, because you usually don't end group play with a tie in points. It also discourages excessive scoring by a dominant team and rewards continuing effort in a loss. I think other posts that associate this with the "good job" or "everyone's a winner" mentality are way over blown. It is quite narrow minded to assert that because a team loses, there is nothing that should be gained.
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Since everyone is whining about how unfair tournament scoring is, I should take this opportunity to vent about the tournaments where my kids' teams didn't lose a game (1 win and 2 ties once, 3 ties once) but did not get a medal or advance to the next round.
I feel much better now. I will hold back my rant on how unfair the 3-point win is in short tournaments.
I feel much better now. I will hold back my rant on how unfair the 3-point win is in short tournaments.
meatsweats
SILVER ELITE
Note: Edited. I meant to prove that the 10 pt system is actually not "common" or superior.
"The 10 pt system described in this tournament is NOT typical of the common system (3 point for a win). TYPICALLY, you do NOT get any points if you lose. Narrow minded or not, rules of the game have been rules of the game for a long time. There is no major soccer entity in the world that awards losses (FIFA, UEFA, etc.)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_points_for_a_win
What you deem superior, is exactly that...your opinion!
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texanincali
SILVER ELITE
I am sorry, but every 10 point scoring system that I have been involved in over the past 25 years awards points for scoring goals, up to 3, for both winning and losing teams. Where this tournament differs is that most will award that extra point for the shut-out in the 0-0 draw.
I have long complained about the 10 point scoring system as we are really the only country that uses it. My complaint is exactly what happened in this scenario. While it isn't common a team that loses yet manages to score 3 goals gets close to the same amount of points for a team that draws 0-0 or 1-1.
I saw a tournament not long ago that a team with 2 wins and 2 losses were declared champions over a team with 3 wins and 1 loss.
Team A -
Won 4-0 (10 points) - Won 3-0 (10 points) - Lost 4-3 (3 points) and 5-3 (3 points) = Total of 26 points
Team B -
Won 2-1 (8 points) - Won 1-0 (8 points) - Won 2-1 (8 points) - Lost 1-0 (0 points) = Total of 24 points
The 10 point system is very "American" and was implemented many, many years ago - can tournaments please just stick with the system of 3-1-0? It ensures that no team advances over another team without a better record. Winning a match should carry more importance than the number of goals scored.
GunninGopher
SILVER ELITE
Ok, so as I read this, you are saying that the typical 10 point system is also known as the 3 point for a win? Your link would seem to be an attempt support that absurd claim.
Thanks for reassuring me that my opinion is my opinion, but you must have posted in haste, because you are completely missing the point. But I'm just now realizing that you don't care.
Dang, there I went and took the bait. I am usually good at ignoring posters that are put up just to make one person feel good about themselves (I don't know exactly what this person gets out of it actually) and the other person seem to be incorrect. Trolls are such a good, descriptive name for person's such as this.
clueless parent
SILVER
Kid played in a tournament with 6 teams, 2 brackets. Each bracket played the three teams in the other bracket. Bracket A had a team (Super Team) that was levels above the other teams. Placement in Bracket A ensured that the two other Bracket A teams did not have to face Super Team.
Super Team got wildcard 1 and the two A bracket teams finished 2nd (And got Wildcard 2 - Lucky Team) and 3rd.
Child's team actually beat Lucky Team. The tournament seeding advantaged Lucky Team. My kid got a life's not fair lesson.
Super Team got wildcard 1 and the two A bracket teams finished 2nd (And got Wildcard 2 - Lucky Team) and 3rd.
Child's team actually beat Lucky Team. The tournament seeding advantaged Lucky Team. My kid got a life's not fair lesson.
meatsweats
SILVER ELITE
I'm ok to admit when I'm wrong or reply in haste. Yes, the 10 pt system is used exclusively in the US and I do see now that it actually does award losers. I didn't mean to equate the system with the common 3pt for a win, just to prove that it's not typical and that losses are not awarded points in any other system in the world. I'm with TexaninCali, just stick with the 3 pt system!
Guess I never paid much attention to the flawed system of the youth tournament scene. However you spin it, it's pretty unfair that a team that loses, moves on over a team that draws. Just my humble troll opinion.
And btw, lighten up dude....maybe I'll share some bacon with you. Bacon good!
We play tournaments. They are fun.
But they really are pretty stupid. 3,4,5 games over a 24-48 hour period of time is silly.
Sticking kids on burning turf fields in the hot summer sun for multiple games is borderline child abuse.
Teams that sandbag to win a trophy is sad. If you want to work on "development" schedule friendlies.
Chasing points for goals, ties, shutouts - Save that for the World Cup.
But they really are pretty stupid. 3,4,5 games over a 24-48 hour period of time is silly.
Sticking kids on burning turf fields in the hot summer sun for multiple games is borderline child abuse.
Teams that sandbag to win a trophy is sad. If you want to work on "development" schedule friendlies.
Chasing points for goals, ties, shutouts - Save that for the World Cup.
zebrafish
SILVER ELITE
We just lost 1-0, 2-0, and 1-0, all games tied at half. Zero points. I'd be willing to trade places with you.
L 10-0
L 4-2
L 8-0
I'll trade places with you and you
I can't recall where my kids have said, "Ugh..we have a tournament this weekend? Can we skip it?"
Tournaments are probably not best for development but it's been my experience that most kids enjoy them win or lose. It actually is their chance to have a "World Cup" moment and play games that have some intensity and passion behind it with a chance to get a medal/trophy or at least a tournament pin. Win or lose most kids enjoy playing and goofing around/destroying the hotel (for travel tournaments).
It's usually the parents who get bent out of shape easily. For the kids it's typically only a negative experience if:
1). The coach berates them for losing.
2). Their mom/dad berates them for losing
That's pretty much it. Any other problems most kids blow off after 30 minutes and some ice cream or pizza.
Sure playing on hot turf fields at noon isn't ideal but as long as there are water breaks and the coach subs frequently, they'll be okay. I played in some pretty extreme weather on the East coast when I was a kid and we survived. Kids these days need to spend way more time outdoors anyway.
That said, I have no love for poorly staffed, poorly run tournaments, which feel like quick money grabs. I remember a few years ago, my daughter did two back-to-back tournaments in the month of August I believe, winning both. The first tournament, there wasn't even 2nd place medals and the first place medals were dropped on top of a water cooler by a 18 year-old field marshal before she left for her own game. Whereas the second tournament we played had the local city mayor speak at the trophy presentation and was just far better organized. As mentioned above, the kids themselves were fine with both tournaments, but us parents are also the customer since we are the ones paying our hard earned money and time for these tournaments so our overall satisfaction should be a factor as well. I'm not going to be happy about paying $100 for a cardboard box that has a tournament sticker on it regardless if my kids like the box. That's a scam.
I think it's disgusting when parents are calling out or bashing kids (either from the other team or their own team) in tournaments. Those parents have lost all perspective. But if parents want to complain about the tournament organizers, the rules or the overall value they're getting, I say rant on. It's your money, you have the right to complain. It often feels like parents don't direct their frustrations toward the right things, yelling at the kids or the other team but ignoring (or staying quiet about) the fundamental problems so clubs keep getting away with the same things.
Tournaments are probably not best for development but it's been my experience that most kids enjoy them win or lose. It actually is their chance to have a "World Cup" moment and play games that have some intensity and passion behind it with a chance to get a medal/trophy or at least a tournament pin. Win or lose most kids enjoy playing and goofing around/destroying the hotel (for travel tournaments).
It's usually the parents who get bent out of shape easily. For the kids it's typically only a negative experience if:
1). The coach berates them for losing.
2). Their mom/dad berates them for losing
That's pretty much it. Any other problems most kids blow off after 30 minutes and some ice cream or pizza.
Sure playing on hot turf fields at noon isn't ideal but as long as there are water breaks and the coach subs frequently, they'll be okay. I played in some pretty extreme weather on the East coast when I was a kid and we survived. Kids these days need to spend way more time outdoors anyway.
That said, I have no love for poorly staffed, poorly run tournaments, which feel like quick money grabs. I remember a few years ago, my daughter did two back-to-back tournaments in the month of August I believe, winning both. The first tournament, there wasn't even 2nd place medals and the first place medals were dropped on top of a water cooler by a 18 year-old field marshal before she left for her own game. Whereas the second tournament we played had the local city mayor speak at the trophy presentation and was just far better organized. As mentioned above, the kids themselves were fine with both tournaments, but us parents are also the customer since we are the ones paying our hard earned money and time for these tournaments so our overall satisfaction should be a factor as well. I'm not going to be happy about paying $100 for a cardboard box that has a tournament sticker on it regardless if my kids like the box. That's a scam.
I think it's disgusting when parents are calling out or bashing kids (either from the other team or their own team) in tournaments. Those parents have lost all perspective. But if parents want to complain about the tournament organizers, the rules or the overall value they're getting, I say rant on. It's your money, you have the right to complain. It often feels like parents don't direct their frustrations toward the right things, yelling at the kids or the other team but ignoring (or staying quiet about) the fundamental problems so clubs keep getting away with the same things.
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I see a match in our future.
I don't see why it's even an issue various point systems are flawed in different ways. Some encourage offense while others reward defense. They all have their own merits and flaws. No system is perfect and satisfies everyone. After decades of debate and numerous playoff models, even big money college football hasn't come up with a perfect system to determine national champions. Can you expect a perfect point system for youth soccer tournaments? At the end of the day, if your team wins outright, you advance. Plus, tournament point system has very little bearing on your kids' long term development.
A perfect system would measure just game results, with a win worth a certain amount, a tie half that amount for both teams, and a loss worth nothing (2-1-0 or 6-3-0). That pure system allows calculation of a WLT percentage that is fair among a large number of teams and a large number of games, even if not all teams play the same number of games. However, in a short series of games such as happens in a weekend tournament, there would be a lot of ties in the standings and thus the need for a lot of tie-breaker rules.
The 6-3-0 10-point system (bonus point for goals up to 3 per game, bonus point for shutout) has been fairly common over the last few years in soccer tournaments, derived from the NASL scoring system that first appeared North America in the 60s. NASL included the bonus points for goals scored up to 3, but not the bonus point for a shutout. A bonus point added for shutout wins (and sometimes for shutout ties), and points deducted for red cards, is the most common system seen around here in youth soccer tournaments. This sytem has the advantage for tournament organizers in that it rolls most of the tiebreakers into the standings points. One complication of that system is what to do about forfeit wins - should they be scored as 1-0? 3-0? award the shutout point or not? A forfeit win could earn anything from 6 to 10 points.
The ancient 2-1-0 system has pretty much disappeared from soccer tournaments, replaced by the 3-1-0 system in imitation of the 3-point win rule first seen in English professional leagues in the early 80s. That bonus point for a win is fair if all teams play the same number of games, but requires some clumsy adaptations when not, such as the average-points-per-game used in Cal South State Cup when selecting wild card teams across groups who have played different numbers of games. The 3-point win supposedly encouraged more aggressive offense and thus more scoring, which is usually meaningless in a 2- or 3-day youth tournament. I have also seen a hybrid system something like the classic 10-point system, except that a tie is only worth 2 points, thus preserving the ratio between wins and ties as in the three-point-win rule.
No matter what the system, there will still be need of tiebreaker rules, for which there are so many variations that it would be worth its own thread.
An interesting website with history of scoring systems -- http://homepages.sover.net/~spectrum/scoring-systems.html
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mommato2girls
SILVER
Tournaments and the point system is so bizarre. We played a tournament in Tahoe where we came in 3rd even though we won 2 and tied one. They didn't get to play in the championship bc the 2nd place team, even though they lost a game had one more goal for. That didn't seem right to me but honestly the kids didn't really care and had fun playing at the lake for the rest of Sunday. I think like a lot to do with parenting the bigger issue parents make of it, the more the kids are bothered or feel wronged.