Stay and Play

[RayClemence]

In the younger years, there are a lot of club teams that are available to working class kid. My kid has played now on 2 almost all Latino teams (he's been near being the richest kid on both of them). We've scrimmaged against a lot of all Latino teams as well. The coaches don't charge huge coaching fees and do it largely for the love of the game, but they aren't as organized as the well established middle class clubs. The kids and parents though are really passionate about soccer and do it more for a love of the game than the college scholarship they can get. He's also played on an AYSO United Team that brought on some working class players who could afford it due to their more affordable fee structure and they have scholarships for hardship cases. AYSO United, inner city, and Latino teams have done extremely well on the boys side in the lower levels, including beating out the higher priced clubs in the State Cub.

The problem, though, is there's a glass barrier to the higher level/older teams where the fees get out of control, you have to engage in a huge amount of driving to get to the particular club, and the tournament costs. There's also developing an SCDSL (or whatever they call themselves now) and Coast split as the United, inner city and Latino teams have a tendency to play Coast.

I don't post much here, just mostly reading and enjoying the lively discussions. I have been coaching at the AYSO and club levels since 2005 and have seen this whole "industry" evolve over 16 years. Grace's comments above are 100% spot-on. My older daughter played on a Latino club team where the fees are embarrassingly low but the coach was passionate and committed in trying to get the players college scholarships (many did), and she even played D3 soccer in college. A lot is said about how the bigger clubs can provide "exposure" to college coaches, but there is a lot of college recruitment going on with talented players on "smaller" and "local" club teams who cannot afford to pay the fees needed to play on a big club team. This is where Grace's "glass barrier" comment is so accurate.

 

[happy9]

RSL actually, but yet Man City didn't "pick up" a single one of them, while their team went back to Manchester ... where would you prefer your kid to be?

The weather is terrible in the UK.

 

[Grace T.]

Please stop bs, if you never lived in Europe or never experienced playing at local soccer club refrain from making s up! if you did play as a kid in European academy system (in any EU or non-EU country) do entertain me with your first hand experience, please.

that's funny that you won't believe the video evidence in front of your eyes. No never did play in the academy system in Europe, but my relatives are European and my son and I did spend a month 2 summers ago in the Basque area with the fam where he did get to check out the soccer scene. The European academy system is very well documented as well in the Soccernomics series of books. So far the only thing you've contributed to this discussion is just saying disregard the video you've just seen. If you have any actual insight for how the system currently works first hand, please speak up. I'm sure people will find it useful and entertainment. But you disputed the academy U10....I just showed you video evidence....if you have something to rebut please speak up.

 

[watfly]

You're in the "stay and play" thread. That's not a coincidence. There are some absolute ballers in the inner city but you don't know about them because of $$$.

Understood. So how are the African American ballers making it to the National Team in a greater percentage from other parts of the country? Are they not coming up in pay to play systems or are you saying that the pay to play system is a much higher $$$ in SoCal? Or is it there a proportional lack of higher income blacks in SoCal?

I've have no question that Pay to Play is a barrier to entry for some black soccer players, but it seems that possibly there are some regional issues unrelated to money that may be driving the difference. Maybe it's in large part because there is a lower percentage of blacks in SoCal as compared to other areas? It just seems to me that black soccer players are underrepresented in SoCal as compared to our National Team.

 

[Grace T.]

Understood. So how are the African American ballers making it to the National Team in a greater percentage from other parts of the country? Are they not coming up in pay to play systems or are you saying that the pay to play system is a much higher $$$ in SoCal? Or is it there a proportional lack of higher income blacks in SoCal?

I've have no question that Pay to Play is a barrier to entry for some black soccer players, but it seems that possibly there are some regional issues unrelated to money that may be driving the difference. Maybe it's in large part because there is a lower percentage of blacks in SoCal as compared to other areas? It just seems to me that black soccer players are underrepresented in SoCal as compared to our National Team.

Football is still king in the south and rust belt. Club football is taking off. There was a netflix series recently on it.....Friday Night Tykes....parents crazy competitive. Recruitment though still goes through the high school teams.

 

[watfly]

The weather is terrible in the UK.

No such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing. At least you can throw some clothes on in the UK, in Arizona you have to stay inside in the AC, or stay in the pool which isn't necessarily a bad thing but not sustainable over a long period of time. Sorry, I can't help myself. I owe you a beer in MB.

 

[Grace T.]

that's funny that you won't believe the video evidence in front of your eyes. No never did play in the academy system in Europe, but my relatives are European and my son and I did spend a month 2 summers ago in the Basque area with the fam where he did get to check out the soccer scene. The European academy system is very well documented as well in the Soccernomics series of books. So far the only thing you've contributed to this discussion is just saying disregard the video you've just seen. If you have any actual insight for how the system currently works first hand, please speak up. I'm sure people will find it useful and entertainment. But you disputed the academy U10....I just showed you video evidence....if you have something to rebut please speak up.

Oh and as to the neve lived in Europe part I spent my gap year at the University of Sevilla. I was too old to play then, but I did become a passionate fan of Sevilla FC. We swung by my old haunts on our trip out there and one of the great joys in my life was sharing the football scene in my favorite city with my son. We even swung by the gym across from Santa Justa there just for a visit to check out their soccer camp....they were very friendly and asked my son to join in a scrimmage since they'd never faced an American keeper they loved it...the kids were actually more interested in asking him about baseball, which is another sport they were teaching (and he knew nothing about) but they assumed as an American he'd be a pro at it. My roommates' kid from my gap year made a run for the academy system (can't remember if it was Sevilla or Betis) but she couldn't say enough negative things about it. Don't think he got further than the trials.

 

[happy9]

Understood. So how are the African American ballers making it to the National Team in a greater percentage from other parts of the country? Are they not coming up in pay to play systems or are you saying that the pay to play system is a much higher $$$ in SoCal? Or is it there a proportional lack of higher income blacks in SoCal?

I've have no question that Pay to Play is a barrier to entry for some black soccer players, but it seems that possibly there are some regional issues unrelated to money that may be driving the difference. Maybe it's in large part because there is a lower percentage of blacks in SoCal as compared to other areas? It just seems to me that black soccer players are underrepresented in SoCal as compared to our National Team.

I'm thinking MLS academies are just good at IDing talent and not wasting time. I haven't done the research on the pedigree of some of the MNT players. My only experience is with my son's old club back in Jersey. The DOC for the club was also the Red Bull Academy U17 coach and part of the scout staff. He always pointed out that many of their kids in the academy would never see too much time playing in mainstream club soccer. They were plucked early on and diverted straight in the academy. He was a valuable resource for parents, always emphasizing environment and coaching over league. We were a few years out from even being considered for the academy but he was always willing to engage parents of the up and comers.

 

[Zvezdas]

that's funny that you won't believe the video evidence in front of your eyes. No never did play in the academy system in Europe, but my relatives are European and my son and I did spend a month 2 summers ago in the Basque area with the fam where he did get to check out the soccer scene. The European academy system is very well documented as well in the Soccernomics series of books. So far the only thing you've contributed to this discussion is just saying disregard the video you've just seen. If you have any actual insight for how the system currently works first hand, please speak up. I'm sure people will find it useful and entertainment. But you disputed the academy U10....I just showed you video evidence....if you have something to rebut please speak up.

What is the evidence please, i can post random game between lets say U12 Rapid Wien vs Salzburg so what. I played in those age groups and I can assure you no kids nor parents were paid or sold like commodities, money usually gets involved when kid reaches U17 age group and even then clubs are not allowed to sign player but in some instance or in some countries (both EU and non-EU) offer scholarships. Few weeks on vacation in EU or relatives there do not make you an expert nor make your argument valid. Furthermore, there is a big difference between clubs in Western EU, Central, and Eastern Europe, non-EU countries where for example majority of youth players were recruited for renowned "League 5 clubs" have a little bit different road to pro level... Please do show evidence (any type of source) of U9 or U10 player being paid, sold like a commodity, let us know what club in EU or non-EU part of Europe pulled that, what was the amount, was it inter-country transfer, or was the kid brought from another EU or non-EU country, how was FA involved in that process, UEFA? I would love to learn about that, thanks.

 

[happy9]

No such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing. At least you can throw some clothes on in the UK, in Arizona you have to stay inside in the AC, or stay in the pool which isn't necessarily a bad thing but not sustainable over a long period of time. Sorry, I can't help myself. I owe you a beer in MB.

Ha...no doubt. I'll rephrase. I oppose bad weather clothing. There is a reason I moved to AZ. after many years of wearing "good" clothing.

 

[watfly]

that's funny that you won't believe the video evidence in front of your eyes. No never did play in the academy system in Europe, but my relatives are European and my son and I did spend a month 2 summers ago in the Basque area with the fam where he did get to check out the soccer scene. The European academy system is very well documented as well in the Soccernomics series of books. So far the only thing you've contributed to this discussion is just saying disregard the video you've just seen. If you have any actual insight for how the system currently works first hand, please speak up. I'm sure people will find it useful and entertainment. But you disputed the academy U10....I just showed you video evidence....if you have something to rebut please speak up.

With all due respect Grace, Zvezdas was questioning whether these kids were "bought and sold like commodities". It appears that they can be cast aside at age 9-10 like used commodities, but are they really part of arms length trades or sales between clubs. It would seem to me that that couldn't happen until age 16 when they can sign professional contracts.

 

[Grace T.]

What is the evidence please, i can post random game between lets say U12 Rapid Wien vs Salzburg so what. I played in those age groups and I can assure you no kids nor parents were paid or sold like commodities, money usually gets involved when kid reaches U17 age group and even then clubs are not allowed to sign player but in some instance or in some countries (both EU and non-EU) offer scholarships. Few weeks on vacation in EU or relatives there do not make you an expert nor make your argument valid. Furthermore, there is a big difference between clubs in Western EU, Central, and Eastern Europe, non-EU countries where for example majority of youth players were recruited for renowned "League 5 clubs" have a little bit different road to pro level... Please do show evidence (any type of source) of U9 or U10 player being paid, sold like a commodity, let us know what club in EU or non-EU part of Europe pulled that, what was the amount, was it inter-country transfer, or was the kid brought from another EU or non-EU country, how was FA involved in that process, UEFA? I would love to learn about that, thanks.

Ah, I see what you are saying. You are critiquing the salary part as opposed to disputing that the kids actually play for the pro academy. That's fair. You are correct that kids and parents don't receive a pay check that young. If that's what I implied, I didn't intend to (internet short hand). But that actually is one of the critiques of the academy system....as you see from the video the kids are on television performing, under all this stress, essentially working for free for the chance to make pro (excepting the training they are receiving) but without a pay check, for a roll at the dice at later on getting a pay check. In Spain, though, the clubs receive training payments later on for transfers which carry over from team to team....I believe they start to vest at U11 but I'm not sure if that information is current since it's a couple years old (might have gone down in age levels over the last 2 years since U10 academy soccer has only exploded in recent years....it actually has a pretty substantial public following which is a little gross, but the reality of European television is they lack the US production facilities and so are a bit content starved). It's why the EU clubs are incentivized to present this training, because later on if the player develops and is sold, they are entitled to a portion of the sum for the training they invested in the child. That's what I meant by them being a commodity. If the investment doesn't look like it will pay off, the club cuts the child and moves on to the next possible investment.

 

[Grace T.]

With all due respect Grace, Zvezdas was questioning whether these kids were "bought and sold like commodities". It appears that they can be cast aside at age 9-10 like used commodities, but are they really part of arms length trades or sales between clubs. It would seem to me that that couldn't happen until age 16 when they can sign professional contracts.

IIRC there are training solidarity payments. I believe in Spain they vest at U11. But no, I'm not the expert on those....somebody once posted a complete summary of how these solidarity training payments worked....can't remember who....

 

[Zvezdas]

Oh and as to the neve lived in Europe part I spent my gap year at the University of Sevilla. I was too old to play then, but I did become a passionate fan of Sevilla FC. We swung by my old haunts on our trip out there and one of the great joys in my life was sharing the football scene in my favorite city with my son. We even swung by the gym across from Santa Justa there just for a visit to check out their soccer camp....they were very friendly and asked my son to join in a scrimmage since they'd never faced an American keeper they loved it...the kids were actually more interested in asking him about baseball, which is another sport they were teaching (and he knew nothing about) but they assumed as an American he'd be a pro at it. My roommates' kid from my gap year made a run for the academy system (can't remember if it was Sevilla or Betis) but she couldn't say enough negative things about it. Don't think he got further than the trials.

Grace, I dont understand, should I be impressed that you spent a year in Spain or that you know kids who were on trial at Betis? I played briefly for one of the major EU academies, second maybe to Ajax in the production of youth players who end up in EU's top 5 leagues, and so what? You made bs argument and you cannot show any evidence, and the worst part some people here who have no clue about EU or non-EU academy system will unfortunately think that 8 and 9 year old's are sold and paid like commodities, when in realities that never occurs, but if you have evidence please share that evidence with us, i am sure local newspapers wrote about those kids, as you know every player's move within EU and non-EU has to be registered with the country's FA even amateur clubs are required to submit docs to FA. There are issues, but they usually occur with older teens, what i know is connected to situations with kids who are 16, 17 years of age...

 

[whatithink]

I'm thinking MLS academies are just good at IDing talent and not wasting time. I haven't done the research on the pedigree of some of the MNT players. My only experience is with my son's old club back in Jersey. The DOC for the club was also the Red Bull Academy U17 coach and part of the scout staff. He always pointed out that many of their kids in the academy would never see too much time playing in mainstream club soccer. They were plucked early on and diverted straight in the academy. He was a valuable resource for parents, always emphasizing environment and coaching over league. We were a few years out from even being considered for the academy but he was always willing to engage parents of the up and comers.

The other thing to note, taking your NY example, is the number of prof clubs in Europe vs the US. London vs NY - London has 6 teams in the EPL (2 N, 1 E, 2 W, 1 S), 2 in the Championship (both W), 2 in League One (S and SW) and 1 in League 2 (E). That's 11 prof clubs for London alone. Its an extreme example of course, but generally if a kid has talent there is a prof club locally or fairly local that will spot it. There are no financial barriers for talent to get noticed or for talent to be given opportunities.

 

[Zvezdas]

With all due respect Grace, Zvezdas was questioning whether these kids were "bought and sold like commodities". It appears that they can be cast aside at age 9-10 like used commodities, but are they really part of arms length trades or sales between clubs. It would seem to me that that couldn't happen until age 16 when they can sign professional contracts.

Thanks, money or promise of money is brought up when player reaches U16-17-18 level, no club in Europe would waste money on 9 year old!

 

[Grace T.]

Grace, I dont understand, should I be impressed that you spent a year in Spain or that you know kids who were on trial at Betis? I played briefly for one of the major EU academies, second maybe to Ajax in the production of youth players who end up in EU's top 5 leagues, and so what? You made bs argument and you cannot show any evidence, and the worst part some people here who have no clue about EU or non-EU academy system will unfortunately think that 8 and 9 year old's are sold and paid like commodities, when in realities that never occurs, but if you have evidence please share that evidence with us, i am sure local newspapers wrote about those kids, as you know every player's move within EU and non-EU has to be registered with the country's FA even amateur clubs are required to submit docs to FA. There are issues, but they usually occur with older teens, what i know is connected to situations with kids who are 16, 17 years of age...

o.k. I take your point and curtsey to your higher experience in the area, but it's not a BS statement and it's not like I'm completely out of the know. My fundamental point is that unlike here, the academy system is a business and that business is engaged in spotting and recruiting players as young as U10. And there is a revenue stream from the training solidarity payments which vest at U11 in Spain I believe. The higher you go up the more financially invested the club becomes, including the signing of the pro salary contract at age 16, 17 which is why the academies are so ruthless in cutting (the investment in the player is low at U10 but as the player develops it becomes more costly for them, so the dead weight is readily cut).

Thanks, money or promise of money is brought up when player reaches U16-17-18 level, no club in Europe would waste money on 9 year old!

"Waste money". That's salary. That's only a part of the expense. The team also incurs expenses with travel, coaching, facilities, and if they are residential food/medical care/education. The team wouldn't provide this if there wasn't a capitalistic financial incentive. Cost is more than player salary. Again, you've seen the video. It's right there..."wasting money" on the 9 year olds.

 

[watfly]

Thanks, money or promise of money is brought up when player reaches U16-17-18 level, no club in Europe would waste money on 9 year old!

That's an interesting point. In a backasswards sort of way we do that in the US with some clubs scholarshipping players at that those young ages. On occasion its done out of the goodness of their hear, but its usually to recruit better players to develop a winning team. The clubs will claim its only done for kids that can't afford it, but in many situation that's not the case and is done purely to entice the best players to come to the club. There are a fair number of scholarshipped kids whose parents roll up in a fully loaded SUV wearing designer clothes head-to-to.

 

[Zvezdas]

o.k. I take your point and curtsey to your higher experience in the area, but it's not a BS statement and it's not like I'm completely out of the know. My fundamental point is that unlike here, the academy system is a business and that business is engaged in spotting and recruiting players as young as U10. And there is a revenue stream from the training solidarity payments which vest at U11 in Spain I believe. The higher you go up the more financially invested the club becomes, including the signing of the pro salary contract at age 16, 17 which is why the academies are so ruthless in cutting (the investment in the player is low at U10 but as the player develops it becomes more costly for them, so the dead weight is readily cut).



"Waste money". That's salary. That's only a part of the expense. The team also incurs expenses with travel, coaching, facilities, and if they are residential food/medical care/education. The team wouldn't provide this if there wasn't a capitalistic financial incentive. Cost is more than player salary. Again, you've seen the video. It's right there..."wasting money" on the 9 year olds.

I am not sure about vested money in 10 year old, who can quit soccer for basketball or handball in Spain or get injured few years later and never make it to pro level. Young player becomes interesting for pro clubs once they reach certain age, most likely around 18-19. There are super rare cases of younger kids who got signed at age 16-17, yes it happens but its super rare. Second, if you are really good around age 17-18 you will be sent to lower division semi-pro or pro club to prove your quality, and that's where i would say based on my experience 40-60% players get lost and never reach pro-levels of game. Some of them quit and some "hang" in lower divisions for another few years before they realize its time to get a real job and forget about soccer. I dont think majority of people on this message board understand the system, pro club academies show interest and recruit youth players but they are not paid, and they can leave for another club relatively easily, all it takes is for parents to request paperwork and join another club. Idea that these pro clubs will "tie" U16 kid with some sort of secretive contract just because they invested money is laughable, there is a huge pool of talent and youth players movement is calculated by the pro clubs. I mean, i can give you million examples of current Euro stars who played for a myriad of academies before they signed their first pro contract.

Academies of pro clubs in Europe are part of their business, part that loses money. Pro clubs make most of their money, player wise, via transfers (ex. buy cheap sell for a lot more). Pro club is super happy if 3-4 kids out of 24-26 make it to pro level and can either play for their first team aka pro team or be sold, period.

 

[Zvezdas]

Just to be clear:

UEFA solidarity payments: how they work

UEFA has allocated €128.69m for clubs across Europe to invest in football development projects.

www.uefa.com

What is the objective of UEFA's solidarity payments?


Solidarity payments are distributed through national associations to clubs to invest in their youth development programmes and/or local community schemes:

• Only clubs not participating in the group stage of either the 2018/19 UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League are eligible for a share of solidarity payments.
• These clubs must be running approved youth development programmes (in compliance with a national club licensing manual accredited by UEFA).

How is the money shared out?


Of the available amount, 80% is distributed to clubs of national associations that have at least one club participating in the UEFA Champions League group stage.

The remaining 20% is distributed to national associations with no clubs in the UEFA Champions League group stage.