Ref Shortage

[timbuck]

Not here to complain. Here to say "Thanks" for those that show up.
So far this Spring, we have had a 3-man crew once. A 2-man crew twice. And a 1-man crew twice.

SCDSL(SoCal) has published rates based on how many refs show up. We've been giving them the full 3-man amount whether its 1 ref or 3 refs.

Guy last night was on his 3rd game as a solo. That's about 5 hours running up and down the field. He was at least 50 years old and in decent shape. Dude deserves the full amount for being out there to make sure we are able to play.

I'd expect to see ref fees go up for the Fall season if we want to see 3 man crews out there.

 

[RedCard]

Not here to complain. Here to say "Thanks" for those that show up.
So far this Spring, we have had a 3-man crew once. A 2-man crew twice. And a 1-man crew twice.

SCDSL(SoCal) has published rates based on how many refs show up. We've been giving them the full 3-man amount whether its 1 ref or 3 refs.

Guy last night was on his 3rd game as a solo. That's about 5 hours running up and down the field. He was at least 50 years old and in decent shape. Dude deserves the full amount for being out there to make sure we are able to play.

I'd expect to see ref fees go up for the Fall season if we want to see 3 man crews out there.

Yesterday we only had 1 referee for our G05 SCDSL Discovery League game down in Oceanside (1st game of the day). He didn't ask for any club linesmen to help out. All I have to say is it was not pretty at all...

 

[Carlsbad7]

Youth Soccer should take a lesson from Youth Baseball.

In youth baseball leagues noticed that refs are getting harder and harder to find. (And older)

To address they created a funnel for 5-18 yrs olds to function as refs, older umps/refs are generally paired up with younger ones to give training and assistance, (the younger refs are put into a position of leadership on making calls. Older refs just sit back watch and provide guidence). They pay $25 to $50 a game.

One other key difference is each teams coach walks up with the refs before the game and introduces them to the parents.

The effect of everything above is that parents are much calmer. No matter the call what kind of jerk is going to go off on a 6 year old? Also I think the kids like have umpires their own age making calls.

It's interesting that a 6yr old can make $200+ a weekend calling games.

 

[Grace T.]

Youth Soccer should take a lesson from Youth Baseball.

In youth baseball leagues noticed that refs are getting harder and harder to find. (And older)

To address they created a funnel for 5-18 yrs olds to function as refs, older umps/refs are generally paired up with younger ones to give training and assistance, (the younger refs are put into a position of leadership on making calls. Older refs just sit back watch and provide guidence). They pay $25 to $50 a game.

One other key difference is each teams coach walks up with the refs before the game and introduces them to the parents.

The effect of everything above is that parents are much calmer. No matter the call what kind of jerk is going to go off on a 6 year old? Also I think the kids like have umpires their own age making calls.

It's interesting that a 6yr old can make $200+ a weekend calling games.

Our local ayso limits this to 12 and up because of the abuse of refs for stupid ayso rec games. Don’t know if it’s National or state policy. The teen refs I’ve had were actually better than the parent volunteers (who do stuff like call offside on corners and throw ins). The teen refs play soccer and at least understand the rules. My kid is going to be an assistant for his service project at school and I’ll be his cr.

I recently heard one team (mostly latinos) call a 12 year old African American player the n word and the parents were also joining in the bullying. Ref claimed he didn’t hear it even though parents on the other side did. If this is acceptable behavior by parents/players in soccer, though, I still worry about allowing him to go in there. I wouldn’t allow him to ar unless I was the cr and only in the heavily monitored environment of our local ayso whic has multiple ref coordinators checking out the field and security present.

 

[electrichead72]

My daughter refed for AYSO for service hours. She was about 13 or so and I tried to set it up as myself being the CR and with her as an AR so that if any trouble happened with parents or coaches, I was there to step in and stop it. Every parent thinks they know the offside rule better than any ref that ever officiated a game.

One day our schedules were busy and I had to do a game away from her. Parents and coaches gave her a hard time, yelling and screaming about the game, she stuck it out to the end but came off in tears after the game. That was the last game she ever refed. We reported it, but nothing came of it.

It's nice to see the kids doing it, but parents and coaches today can be such garbage cans that it's probably better to keep the young refs out of it without an adult there to take care of any problems.

 

[Eagle33]

Not here to complain. Here to say "Thanks" for those that show up.
So far this Spring, we have had a 3-man crew once. A 2-man crew twice. And a 1-man crew twice.

SCDSL(SoCal) has published rates based on how many refs show up. We've been giving them the full 3-man amount whether its 1 ref or 3 refs.

Guy last night was on his 3rd game as a solo. That's about 5 hours running up and down the field. He was at least 50 years old and in decent shape. Dude deserves the full amount for being out there to make sure we are able to play.

I'd expect to see ref fees go up for the Fall season if we want to see 3 man crews out there.

Shortage comes from too many games being played at the same time. 2-3 extra new leagues plus HS games and college Spring games. Refs can only do so much of those. Many refs after a year of doing nothing found something else to do or just said f it. For younger refs, they don't like all the abuse and much rather work somewhere else. Paying more for games won't do the trick.

 

[Overtime]

Yesterday we only had 1 referee for our G05 SCDSL Discovery League game down in Oceanside (1st game of the day). He didn't ask for any club linesmen to help out. All I have to say is it was not pretty at all...

Same with G02/03 games this weekend. Games get really chippy and sloppy with 1 ref at this age and would rather play one game with a full crew than 2 like this.

 

[JumboJack]

Yesterday we only had 1 referee for our G05 SCDSL Discovery League game down in Oceanside (1st game of the day). He didn't ask for any club linesmen to help out. All I have to say is it was not pretty at all...

Even if he had asked for club linesmen they are only allowed to signal if the ball crosses the touch or goal line. They can’t call offside or fouls. It still would have been ugly.

 

[Carlsbad7]

My daughter refed for AYSO for service hours. She was about 13 or so and I tried to set it up as myself being the CR and with her as an AR so that if any trouble happened with parents or coaches, I was there to step in and stop it. Every parent thinks they know the offside rule better than any ref that ever officiated a game.

One day our schedules were busy and I had to do a game away from her. Parents and coaches gave her a hard time, yelling and screaming about the game, she stuck it out to the end but came off in tears after the game. That was the last game she ever refed. We reported it, but nothing came of it.

It's nice to see the kids doing it, but parents and coaches today can be such garbage cans that it's probably better to keep the young refs out of it without an adult there to take care of any problems.

The problem with the current way soccer is setup is that for refs to discipline parents is that it's all or nothing. What I mean by this is to stop over the top parent behavior refs give a yellow card to the parent/parents (or coach) then if things continue to escalate a red card. At this point a decision needs to be made if play could continue or a forfeit relayed.

I suggest that instead of a forfeit (which makes the ref the bad guy + hurts the kids) ref should have the option to stop play + reschedule the game. To a parent / coach this is worse than having a game canceled because you have to move schedules around last minute to make it work. Also this would allow refs to bring out the zebras that don't put up with crap.

Only downside of a reschedule punishment is that teams might try to use it as a tactic.

 

[Eagle33]

The problem with the current way soccer is setup is that for refs to discipline parents is that it's all or nothing. What I mean by this is to stop over the top parent behavior refs give a yellow card to the parent/parents (or coach) then if things continue to escalate a red card. At this point a decision needs to be made if play could continue or a forfeit relayed.

I suggest that instead of a forfeit (which makes the ref the bad guy + hurts the kids) ref should have the option to stop play + reschedule the game. To a parent / coach this is worse than having a game canceled because you have to move schedules around last minute to make it work. Also this would allow refs to bring out the zebras that don't put up with crap.

Only downside of a reschedule punishment is that teams might try to use it as a tactic.

This is not how it works. Refs don't decide outcome of the game - league do. Refs can only abandon the game.
We have a shortage of refs and you suggesting to have another game? What a great idea!

 

[notintheface]

ref should have the option to stop play + reschedule the game

With scheduling the way it is, this isn't really a viable solution. Coach conflicts, parents, etc.

 

[Carlsbad7]

This is not how it works. Refs don't decide outcome of the game - league do. Refs can only abandon the game.
We have a shortage of refs and you suggesting to have another game? What a great idea!

Yea, I see what you mean. It's not logical.

I was proposing a way for Refs to not be the bad guy + punish parents / coaches in a way that will cause more pain than just ending the game.

The problem with just ending the game crazy parents / coaches view the ref as the bad guy. When they should be looking inward at themselves.

Delaying/replaying the game takes pressure off the refs, cools off the parents/coaches, + allows for more senior level refs to get involved.

This type of action would only need to occur once or twice before parents start getting frustrated at the crazy parent / coach and solve the problem internally.

 

[Carlsbad7]

With scheduling the way it is, this isn't really a viable solution. Coach conflicts, parents, etc.

This is the point + expected.

Coach + parents will need to forfeit themselves because they can't attend the rescheduled event.

The parent / coach that triggered the reschedule becomes the bad guy not the ref.

 

[notintheface]

My daughter refed for AYSO for service hours. She was about 13 or so and I tried to set it up as myself being the CR and with her as an AR so that if any trouble happened with parents or coaches, I was there to step in and stop it. Every parent thinks they know the offside rule better than any ref that ever officiated a game.

I hate to say this but kids should not be doing ref duties unless it's for those Ulittle 3v3 no-keeper "matches" where the ref is really doing more coaching than anything.

There are far, far, far too many abusive parents out there who howl like crazy and cannot control their outbursts at all regardless of the target. You could stick Jesus Christ in a yellow shirt and these parents would be the ones screaming to nail him back up.

 

[notintheface]

Coach + parents will need to forfeit themselves because they can't attend the rescheduled event.

Again, at that point the real punishment is the forfeit-- all you're proposing is a CYA solution to a forfeit.

If a parent is becoming so disruptive, send the parent off. All it takes is one time for their kid to be embarrassed in front of the team for that parent to -- hopefully! -- learn their lesson. Remember -- 99% of the disruptive parents are people who are living vicariously through their kids. The moment that the kid sees their parent sent off and the rest of the team gives them shit about it, that parent should (should!) straight up really damned quick.

 

[timbuck]

Yea, I see what you mean. It's not logical.

I was proposing a way for Refs to not be the bad guy + punish parents / coaches in a way that will cause more pain than just ending the game.

The problem with just ending the game crazy parents / coaches view the ref as the bad guy. When they should be looking inward at themselves.

Delaying/replaying the game takes pressure off the refs, cools off the parents/coaches, + allows for more senior level refs to get involved.

This type of action would only need to occur once or twice before parents start getting frustrated at the crazy parent / coach and solve the problem internally.

What about issuing a "Technical Foul" like in basketball. If your bench or sideline get issued a warning, it's an automatic corner kick. If it happens a 2nd time in the same game, it's a PK.

 

[Eagle33]

What about issuing a "Technical Foul" like in basketball. If your bench or sideline get issued a warning, it's an automatic corner kick. If it happens a 2nd time in the same game, it's a PK.

LOTG is clear that only Players, coaches and referees are part of the game. Says nothing about parents.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Again, at that point the real punishment is the forfeit-- all you're proposing is a CYA solution to a forfeit.

If a parent is becoming so disruptive, send the parent off. All it takes is one time for their kid to be embarrassed in front of the team for that parent to -- hopefully! -- learn their lesson. Remember -- 99% of the disruptive parents are people who are living vicariously through their kids. The moment that the kid sees their parent sent off and the rest of the team gives them shit about it, that parent should (should!) straight up really damned quick.

100% correct.

But, there's a slight wrinkle in that the forfeit isn't the Refs choice/fault it's the teams/coaches fault for not showing up at the rescheduled event.

The Refs have proposed an alternative to forfeiting the game + are working with the teams/coaches to keep playing.

This doubles the pressure on the parent/parents/coach that's causing problems. And completely absolves Refs from being the bad guy.

Eventually if the bad behavior continues other teams will hear about it + won't want to play them b/c it will mean a reschedule.

 

[Grace T.]

What about issuing a "Technical Foul" like in basketball. If your bench or sideline get issued a warning, it's an automatic corner kick. If it happens a 2nd time in the same game, it's a PK.

Part of the problem is because soccer is such a low scoring game, and because it's all about the "mistakes" players make on the field, every correction swings outcomes of the game wildly. It's why the PK system is somewhat broken, because awarding a PK is almost like awarding an automatic goal unless the striker makes a mistake.

Similarly, it's the problem with cards issued to control the game. The referees are instructed to not harm the flow of play too much by calling too many fouls, and to not issue very many cards particularly with younger players in the youth game. Red cards in particular come with severe suspension penalties. So refs are left with the choice of do nothing or go nuclear, knowing a sanction could severely impact the game and/or the players. It's why refs can lose control of the game, because of failure to stomp out some behavior early on leads the players to think they can get away with it or take matters into their own hands.

So there isn't really any easy technical foul that can be awarded beyond a drop ball (which would be hated by all since it's not really a punishment and stops the flow of the game). For the youngers, most of them can't get the corner kick into the box so it wouldn't make much of an impact anyways....for the olders it could really swing the game.

 

[timbuck]

Part of the problem is because soccer is such a low scoring game, and because it's all about the "mistakes" players make on the field, every correction swings outcomes of the game wildly. It's why the PK system is somewhat broken, because awarding a PK is almost like awarding an automatic goal unless the striker makes a mistake.

Similarly, it's the problem with cards issued to control the game. The referees are instructed to not harm the flow of play too much by calling too many fouls, and to not issue very many cards particularly with younger players in the youth game. Red cards in particular come with severe suspension penalties. So refs are left with the choice of do nothing or go nuclear, knowing a sanction could severely impact the game and/or the players. It's why refs can lose control of the game, because of failure to stomp out some behavior early on leads the players to think they can get away with it or take matters into their own hands.

So there isn't really any easy technical foul that can be awarded beyond a drop ball (which would be hated by all since it's not really a punishment and stops the flow of the game). For the youngers, most of them can't get the corner kick into the box so it wouldn't make much of an impact anyways....for the olders it could really swing the game.

I don't REALLY believe that a technical foul type of call should be implemented. But if your team is giving away free corner kicks because your coach or some aggressive parent can't keep their mouth shut- I bet they get quiet pretty fast.