Quick offside question

Surfref said:
And, the incorrect Offside calls are still happening. Week two of League season and I am working with another referee who does not follow the 2018/2019 LOTG Law 11 or follow what I tell them in the pre-game. The AR's screw ups actually taught him a couple lessons, but got me (Center) yelled at by both coaches. The AR did not listen when I told him to, "wait and see if the attacker in an offside position actually plays the ball or interferes with play." First half with score 0-0, attacking third of the field, the ball gets passed through the defense to the blue player in an offside position who starts to run after the ball but stops and changes direction away from the ball about 4-5 yards from the ball when the ball was at the top of the penalty area, the white defenders stop when they see the AR raise his flag, I yell at him "no offside lower the flag", another blue attacker who was in an onside position comes in and gets a shot off that misses wide. All of this happened within about 3 seconds. AR should not have raised his flag until the offside blue attacker played the ball. Blue coach yells at me that his team practices that play and the AR threw off the timing and distracted his players. White coach is yelling that I should have called the offside because the AR raised the flag. I get the game going quickly and the coaches calm down.

Same AR in the same game during the second half. Ball gets played high and long over the top toward the blue keeper. A white player in an offside position is running after the ball toward the keeper but from my view the keeper was going to easily get to the ball first. With the ball 20 yards in front of the white player and 10 yards from the keeper, the AR raises his flag for offside. I ignore him and wait to see what will happen. Keeper kicks the ball but shanks it out of play. I tell my AR to lower the flag because the white player never played the ball. After the game the AR tells me he raised the flag because he thought the white attacker and blue keeper might collide, so he raised the flag early. I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what we think might happen. I asked him if he would stop play if there was a ball in the middle of the field with two players from opposing teams running toward each other to get the ball. He said "no." My response was, "so, why would you raise the flag in a similar situation when an attacker in an offside position who has not played the ball but is running at the keeper who is moving toward the ball?" His answer, "I get it, I should leave the flag down until the offside attacker either interferes or plays the ball." Me, "Exactly." Lesson learned and now we will have one less referee misapplying the LOTG.
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Sometimes referees just need to "piss on the electric fence". It's one thing to learn all this and watch videos in the classroom, and its another thing to see your decision affect play.

I will never forget the call I made 6 years ago (before the law emphasis change so they didn't even really teach it that much) as an AR in a high-ish level older boys game. I felt a little overwhelmed keeping up with the 2nd to last defender and 1 time, I raise my flag just as a player in an offside position is in the process of kicking the ball. The problem: he completely whiffed and some onside speedy Gonzales winger takes it and scores while the defense all stopped defending because my flag was up until I saw the winger. 2-1 game, that was the deciding goal.

Needless to say, the center got flamed to no end, and then I was given a helpful, understanding, stern, but not angry lecture by the Center after the game. I do the same thing every time is comes up when I'm the Center now.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
Sometimes referees just need to "piss on the electric fence". It's one thing to learn all this and watch videos in the classroom, and its another thing to see your decision affect play.

I will never forget the call I made 6 years ago (before the law emphasis change so they didn't even really teach it that much) as an AR in a high-ish level older boys game. I felt a little overwhelmed keeping up with the 2nd to last defender and 1 time, I raise my flag just as a player in an offside position is in the process of kicking the ball. The problem: he completely whiffed and some onside speedy Gonzales winger takes it and scores while the defense all stopped defending because my flag was up until I saw the winger. 2-1 game, that was the deciding goal.

Needless to say, the center got flamed to no end, and then I was given a helpful, understanding, stern, but not angry lecture by the Center after the game. I do the same thing every time is comes up when I'm the Center now.
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You seem to be implying that a player "in process of kicking the ball" is not making a play on the ball. Did I misunderstand?
 
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espola said:
You seem to be implying that a player "in process of kicking the ball" is not making a play on the ball. Did I misunderstand?
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That is exactly what I am implying. https://cdn2.sportngin.com/attachme...LoG_Additional_Guidance_on_Law_11_v2.0_EN.pdf

Merely being in the process of kicking the ball is not making a play on the ball. It needs to meet 3 criteria:
1: He needs to make a CLEAR (attempted) play on the ball
2. He needs to be CLOSE to the ball.
3. He needs to have an IMPACT on the opponent

In the situation I describe above, the attacker who whiffed the ball made a CLEAR attempt, he was CLOSE when he made the attempt, but he did not have IMPACT. This is because the defender needed to run toward goal anyway, so the defenders actions were not impactful enough to be deemed interference.
"IMPACT applies to an opponent’s ability (or potential) to play the ball and will include situations where an opponent’s movement to play the ball is delayed, hindered or prevented by the offside player"
The defender running toward goal was not hindered, delayed, or prevented.

When a player is in an offside position (PIOP), they will always have some sort of impact on their opponents. Merely affecting the decision making process is not enough to constitute interference. Just because you are the closest player to goal (albeit, offside) and that causes the defenders to focus on you and lose track of the winger, does not mean you hindered, delayed, or prevented any movement.
Let us say the PIOP was 10 yards from goal instead of 40 yards from goal as in my example. This player would then force the goalie to adjust to the PIOP which would DELAY his positioning needed to defend from the onside winger. This would then be impacting and therefore Offside.

Yes, offside really is that complicated. This makes it the 2nd most hard to interpret and explain law of the game. 2nd only to handling.
 
espola said:
You seem to be implying that a player "in process of kicking the ball" is not making a play on the ball. Did I misunderstand?
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Here is an example done by the top brass of a girl in an offside position that attempts to play the ball (in the process of kicking the ball) but[FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif] [/FONT]misses.
The correct answer according to the higher ups is: allow the goal, no offside offense. PIOP did not make enough of an impact on her opponents.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
That is exactly what I am implying. https://cdn2.sportngin.com/attachme...LoG_Additional_Guidance_on_Law_11_v2.0_EN.pdf

Merely being in the process of kicking the ball is not making a play on the ball. It needs to meet 3 criteria:
1: He needs to make a CLEAR (attempted) play on the ball
2. He needs to be CLOSE to the ball.
3. He needs to have an IMPACT on the opponent

In the situation I describe above, the attacker who whiffed the ball made a CLEAR attempt, he was CLOSE when he made the attempt, but he did not have IMPACT. This is because the defender needed to run toward goal anyway, so the defenders actions were not impactful enough to be deemed interference.
"IMPACT applies to an opponent’s ability (or potential) to play the ball and will include situations where an opponent’s movement to play the ball is delayed, hindered or prevented by the offside player"
The defender running toward goal was not hindered, delayed, or prevented.

When a player is in an offside position (PIOP), they will always have some sort of impact on their opponents. Merely affecting the decision making process is not enough to constitute interference. Just because you are the closest player to goal (albeit, offside) and that causes the defenders to focus on you and lose track of the winger, does not mean you hindered, delayed, or prevented any movement.
Let us say the PIOP was 10 yards from goal instead of 40 yards from goal as in my example. This player would then force the goalie to adjust to the PIOP which would DELAY his positioning needed to defend from the onside winger. This would then be impacting and therefore Offside.

Yes, offside really is that complicated. This makes it the 2nd most hard to interpret and explain law of the game. 2nd only to handling.
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Your link doesn't support your position very well.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
Here is an example done by the top brass of a girl in an offside position that attempts to play the ball (in the process of kicking the ball) but[FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif] [/FONT]misses.
The correct answer according to the higher ups is: allow the goal, no offside offense. PIOP did not make enough of an impact on her opponents.
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The opponents did not react to her at all.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
Here is an example done by the top brass of a girl in an offside position that attempts to play the ball (in the process of kicking the ball) but[FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif] [/FONT]misses.
The correct answer according to the higher ups is: allow the goal, no offside offense. PIOP did not make enough of an impact on her opponents.
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That video seems to show an attempt to control the ball, not pulling the foot back and 'whiffing the kick.' It's hard to imagine a scenario where a player attempts to kick the ball and misses and that action doesn't affect an opponent. Even in the situation you describe in your initial post, it seems far fetched that the defenders closest to the ball would not be at least delayed when a player in an offside position tries to kick a ball and misses it. I suppose one might be able to argue it, but it would be a hard sell. I don't know, maybe I'm just picturing it wrong. If you can dig up a video that shows a scenario where that is true, I'd love to see it.
 
Watch the keeper very closely. Makes a slight move(approx 2 steps) towards the center player that was offside who lets the ball go past her foot, then a slight angle turn to her left to the player that was onside and actually plays the ball. To me that while it was small, it was a reaction by the keeper. I slowed it down to quarter speed and you can see two different angles on the keepers run out.
 
@Surfref

Please see Meunier goal for PSG today vs Liverpool. A clearly offside Cavani whiffs on an overhead kick attempt and the goal is given.

I think this new rule is not good but this is a crystal clear example of its correct implementation.
 
futboldad1 said:
@Surfref

Please see Meunier goal for PSG today vs Liverpool. A clearly offside Cavani whiffs on an overhead kick attempt and the goal is given.

I think this new rule is not good but this is a crystal clear example of its correct implementation.
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that was definitely an example of what is being discussed.
he didn't play the ball or play a defender trying to play the ball. but at full speed in a live game, it wouldn't be too hard to see that call being made as offside.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
I guess this all means that IFAB needs clarifications for its clarifications LOL.
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Or some of us referees, coaches, and parents just need to chill out. I love when people compare what is called (and how it is called) at games of 9 year olds, by often entry level grade 8 referees who never played soccer, to the officiating of those in the EPL. Pure comedy.
 
@Surfref have all referees been told the new IFAB rules, as this past weekend I had one I told this to and he said the rules had not been changed and it was not when the player played the ball?

While the higher referees may take time to read these things I’m not sure most do.
 
futboldad1 said:
@Surfref

Please see Meunier goal for PSG today vs Liverpool. A clearly offside Cavani whiffs on an overhead kick attempt and the goal is given.

I think this new rule is not good but this is a crystal clear example of its correct implementation.
Click to expand...

baldref said:
that was definitely an example of what is being discussed.
he didn't play the ball or play a defender trying to play the ball. but at full speed in a live game, it wouldn't be too hard to see that call being made as offside.
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I'd be curious to know whether the AR didn't call offside because (a) he believed Cavani was in an offside position but didn't interfere with play or (b) just simply that he didn't believe Cavani was in an offside position. Regardless, its a good discussion example. IMHO I don't think Cavani's whiff rises to the level of interfering with play or opponent.
 
Surfref said:
I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what we think might happen.
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Actually there is. After "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG in 2005, IFAB issued advice to the application of the law that stated:

"If an opponent becomes involved in the play and if, in the opinion of the referee, there is potential for physical contact, the player in the offside position shall be penalised for interfering with an opponent."

https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/new...-the-field-application-law-offside-99799.html
 
RedNevilles said:
@Surfref have all referees been told the new IFAB rules, as this past weekend I had one I told this to and he said the rules had not been changed and it was not when the player played the ball?

While the higher referees may take time to read these things I’m not sure most do.
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Let me guess, the referee was older (35+)?

The Law 11 change actually occurred a couple years ago. Every year Grade 8 and Grade 7 referees Most of the referees you see on your games) must attend 5 hours of continuing referee education and they must complete 16-18 online training modules that include a test for each module. Referees get far more training compared to coaches that are not required to attend any continuing education or online training. The online modules include a Law 11 Offside section and Offside is discussed often at the monthly referee association meetings/training. So, I would think that by now referees would know about the changes. But, there are referees that don't attend all of the training, have someone else complete their online training for them, don't pay attention, come late to training or just don't care. These are the referees that get the calls wrong and get the good referees yelled at. Most referees I know pride themselves on staying current with the ever changing LOTG and interpretations.
 
watfly said:
I'd be curious to know whether the AR didn't call offside because (a) he believed Cavani was in an offside position but didn't interfere with play or (b) just simply that he didn't believe Cavani was in an offside position. Regardless, its a good discussion example. IMHO I don't think Cavani's whiff rises to the level of interfering with play or opponent.
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I would imagine the CR and AR talked over the headsets and decided no offside. At game speed that might be a hard one to get correct especially on our fields if the CR or AR are looking into the sun.
 
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