baldref
GOLD
i disagree.
Quick offside question
- Thread starter socalkdg
- Start date
Our team has been working on playing back to my daughter at keeper. This past Saturday, one of our girls plays it back to her, even though an opponent is about 1/3 of the way towards her, in a possible offside position. She doesn't pass it hard enough, their player makes a run for it, just as she gets to it and makes her first touch my daughter slide tackles the ball away for a save. Her dad then says that the girl was offside and wondered why the whistle wasn't blown. I mention that I think since it was played deliberately back the girl isn't considered offside. He says he doesn't think his daughter knew that rule either. Lesson learned, cool video for me, and no harm done.
TangoCity
GOLD
And this happened this weekend. I believe they called #2 offside (active participation) but side view shows she was onside and AR out of position. #10 was in an offside position but didn't have any effect on the play. What are your thoughts? PS - I didn't make the video titles lol
Side view:
Behind Goal view:
Side view:
Behind Goal view:
baldref
GOLD
From the side view, it appears #10 was making a run at the ball, and therefore that might have been what the AR called. But, I agree that she did not participate, which is shown clearly on the behind goal view. The AR doesn't have that view. Knowing she was in an offside position, she probably should have not ran towards the goal? But, they got it wrong, it should have been a goal.
Surfref
PREMIER
Should have been a goal. Hopefully the center referee was experienced enough to realize that neither #2 or #10 actually played the ball or interfered with play or obstructed the keeper. That is one of those times that the Center Referee must take charge and wave the flag down.
The last two weeks of the summer I worked with several referees that did not fully understand Law 11 and how to implement it. Even this past weekend after a lengthy pregame discussion which included specific guidance on Offside, I still had two ARs screw up the calls because they were using the Law 11 interpretation from the mid-2000's and raising the flag while even with the last defender. With all of the training we have received on the changes to Law 11 over the past several years, some ARs have still not changed the way and where they call Offside. I had to wave down Offside calls at least twice per game from two ARs and had discussions with them at halftime. Surprise, these were not new referees but older referees that just could not adapt or did not want to adapt to the Law 11 changes. If I hear one more AR say that they raised the flag early because it was a hospital ball when the attacker was still 10-20 yards away from the keeper, I am going to lose my mind. Many coaches are aware of the rule change to Law 11 and coach their players to exploit it and run after the ball to cause the keeper to rush to kick it and the player will either stop or change direction away from the ball when they are 5-10 yards away from the ball which is not within playing distance of the ball. The restart is where the player played the ball or interfered with play and not even with the last defender. Come on referees, get this right so the whole crew does not get yelled at because of an Offside call screw up.
Surfref
PREMIER
Why is the Keeper wearing a light colored jersey that is a similar light color as the field players. Come on Referees, get the little things right and the other stuff will fall into place.
You should send those videos to the referee association. They would make some good training videos.
coachrefparent
GOLD
My thoughts: I could see where a referee might, in real time, with no luxury of review (I watched the videos half a dozen times each) have determined that #10:
#1 interfered with the keeper's line of vision
#2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
(p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG)
At the moment the shot is taken, #10 is directly in the line of vision from the keeper to the ball, and the keeper seems to slowly react to the shot only after #10 moves to her left (yes there are other players in the line of vision as well.)
Would be a hard one to overturn, even on VAR, if the AR gave #1 as a basis for the offside call (I'm sure the keeper would agree
.)
I noticed that too.
Tournament game a few weeks ago. Both team were in dark jerseys but very contrasting color.
Ref said - I’m color blind. We need one of the teams to be in white.
Tea and Busquets
SILVER
GK jersey looks light green in the side view. Maybe back camera not as good picking up color?
Surfref
PREMIER
My thoughts: I could see where a referee might, in real time, with no luxury of review (I watched the videos half a dozen times each) have determined that #10:
#1 interfered with the keeper's line of vision
#2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
(p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG)
At the moment the shot is taken, #10 is directly in the line of vision from the keeper to the ball, and the keeper seems to slowly react to the shot only after #10 moves to her left (yes there are other players in the line of vision as well.)
Would be a hard one to overturn, even on VAR, if the AR gave #1 as a basis for the offside call (I'm sure the keeper would agree
#2 and #10 did not clearly obstruct the view of the goalkeeper. The keeper has a clear view of player that kicked the ball which is evident because the keeper starts moving as soon as the ball is kicked and started to move back to save the ball before either of those players got near her. Go to the PRO Referee website and look at the examples of clearly obstructing the view of an opponent, the positioning of #2 and #10 would easily NOT meet the criteria. And, I am not sure how the AR would be able to determine the #2 or #10 clearly obstructed the view. No way could the AR make that call. That would be a CR call.
As for your second statement, “#2 attempted to play the ball impacting the defense (defender goes to her instead of playing ball)
(p.205-207 of 18/19 LOTG).” That is a complete misinterpretation of Law 11 and has no bearing on the offside call. It never fails that in every training session some knucklehead asks the question, “the offside player influenced the defender to move toward them.” Every time the US Soccer Instructor says that is not one of the criteria to determine offside. Yes, every time.
The Referee crew got the call wrong and it should have been a goal. Yes, referees sometimes make mistake even when they get together and talk. If you don’t believe me send a copy of the two videos and your post to Randy.
Randall Reyes
State Director of Instruction
Lawfive01@yahoo.com
Surfref
PREMIER
I first noticed the light colored keeper jersey in the side shot video. That keepers jersey is too close in color to the field players. The rule of thumb is that there should be 5 distinctly different colored jerseys on the field: team A keeper, team A field players, team B keeper, team B field players and referees.
coachrefparent
GOLD
#1 and #2 were points 1 and 2. You didn't read the preceding sentence where points #1 and #2 were both referring to player number 10. My point was not that they were right on both, but that that in real time, without the benefit of 2 different camera replay angles, the referees could have made these determination, rightly or wrongly, not based upon a misunderstanding of the laws, knucklehead, errr, kook.
Both the AR and center could have determined that PLAYER #10 was directly blocking the keeper's view when the shot the was taken. #10 is directly in the line of sight of the keeper at 4.2 seconds (of the behind the goal video) when the shot it taken, and the keeper's reaction is delayed. No disputing that fact. Can't argue with your perception which is wrong, but OK kook. Back to Cardiff.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
Hey, I was that referee 5-6 years ago. Patience is the first tool needed in education. Don't go and get frustrated with ill-informed referees that make this interpretation based on "common sense" definitions. This is a common misconception that most players have, and therefore most referees because most of them started out as players. It is only natural to see the phrase "interfere with an opponent" and think back to a time when you were a defender and had an attacker barreling down towards you and you panic kicked it out, or worse, shank it towards your own goal. Of course you feel like a throw in to the attackers is an unfair reward after being intimidated by an otherwise offside attacker. You feel like your decision making process was "interfered with".
If you dig hard enough into the Laws, then yes you can find that it does not think that affecting the decision-making process of a player constitutes interference. We should only judge the physical, observable actions, because any mental speculation has no end.
But what Grade 8 really takes the time to dig for not readily available information. Ask and be a fool for a minute, ask not and be a fool for life.
Your frustration should be with the education system. If it is such a common question, then it should be standard in every lesson on offside to address this issue. It should not take more than 1 minute if done properly.
The whole referee education program really is hastily thrown together and subpar. All the lessons are basically impromptu and thrown together last minute, and all the information from USSF is too diluted. Education needs to come from each association and each one should hire one part-time person who gets paid to dedicate their time to referee education.
Surfref
PREMIER
Good explanation. I have been frustrated with a good number of referees that I have worked with over the past month, because they cannot get Law 11 correct and for some reason have not adopted the updated interpretation. These referees have not been the new Grade 8's, but older Grade 8, 7, 16 referees that have been around for a while. Those new Grade 8's have actually been doing a good job with their Law 11 calls. The "obstruction of the view" and "interfere with an opponent" is taught in the Offside presentations at RPD and Association meetings and there are still knucklehead referees that will argue and not believe the correct information from the instructors.
What makes the situation worse is when I emphasize the new interpretation of Law 11 in my pre-game and the AR (Grade 7) does not follow any of the direction. Last weekend I had blue player #2 in an offside position (5+ yards offside) with another blue player #3 on the far side in an onside position and the ball was played long over the top and blue #2 started to run after the ball but was easily 20-25 yards behind the ball and blue #3 was also running after the ball but from a different angle. The AR stopped in line with the last defender, raised his flag and gave it a wiggle. My thought was that I had not seen a foul so I blew the whistle and the AR indicates an Offside with his flag. Now I, the coaches and players are consfused. The players and coach for the blue team are yelling that the player was never close enough to play the ball and blue #3 was going to get the ball. My AR was completely wrong and the coach and players absolutly correct. I talked to my AR who said that #2 was distracting the defenders and making the defenders run toward him and he wiggled the flag to get my attention. The AR was completely wrong with his interpretation and actions and went completely against what I talked about in my pre-game. My problem was now to either admit the mistake and everyone would know that we screwed up as a referee team or give the IDFK for the bad Offside call. I appoligized for the mistake to the players and dropped the ball which the red team kicked out for a blue throw in. That AR's credibility was shot and I ended up having to ask the blue coach to stop yelling at the AR everytime he made a call. The blue coach told me at halftime that his team practices plays where a player will start in an Offside position, run after the ball and then stop and allow the teammate to come in and get the ball and go toward goal. He said it has resulted in several goals, since some defenders freeze and raise their hands thinking blue #2 was Offside and going to get called for it. My point with this story is that the coaches and players know what the updated Offside interpretations are and devise plays around them. When referees choose to not stay updated on the LOTG, make up their own interpretation, or ignore the pre-game discussion they make the entire referee crew look bad and do a diservice to the players and game.
The instruction I receive during the referee training sessions is helpful because I always walk away having learned something new and got a refresher on something. My biggest complaint about the training is the instructors (RPD and Assoc meetings) is the poor time management. Referees are expected to know how to manage time, but the instructors seem to have a difficult time managing their time. It is frustrating when I habve to work for 9 hours at my regular job, then go to a referee meeting that is supposed to end at 8pm or 9pm and the meeting runs 30-60 over the time because the instructor could not manage the time.
Surfref
PREMIER
Thank you for the clarification of the numbers. I was not refering to you as a knucklehead, but to those referees that have sat through the Offside training several times and continue to ask the same question everytime and not believe was is being told to them.
There basically were two different angles of view during the play because the CR had a good view looking toward the goal and the AR had a decent view (would have been better if he was inline with the last defender). Referee crews have got to get these calls correct. Like I said, go to PRO Referee website and look up Offside "clearly obstructed view" videos. Here is a link to two very good explanations and videos for Obstructing the View, and if these two are not Offside for Clearly Obstructing the View then there is no way the play in question on this thread is Offside. http://proreferees.com/2017/04/05/play-of-the-week-2017-week-5/
twoclubpapa
SILVER ELITE
Happens in both club and AYSO. I was mentoring some AYSO assistant referees new to 14U games this past Saturday and had an instance where one of my mentee ARs properly flagged as offside a player who had been in an offside position at the time of a shot ran in and put the loose ball from the GK save into the net. The experienced AYSO/USSF referee came over and the discussion showed that he thought that the deliberate play by the GK in making the save reset the offside. I had the chance to correct his understanding.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
One instructor is not very clear and will go on many tangents that are hard to follow ("well you should do this in this league, but league I'd just do this, but most of the time, go with that over there") and the other instructor, while extremely patient, is almost too patient and will respond verbosely, albeit clearly, to questions 95% of the room already knew.
Hint, both of these instructors share the same name.
Surfref
PREMIER
And, the incorrect Offside calls are still happening. Week two of League season and I am working with another referee who does not follow the 2018/2019 LOTG Law 11 or follow what I tell them in the pre-game. The AR's screw ups actually taught him a couple lessons, but got me (Center) yelled at by both coaches. The AR did not listen when I told him to, "wait and see if the attacker in an offside position actually plays the ball or interferes with play." First half with score 0-0, attacking third of the field, the ball gets passed through the defense to the blue player in an offside position who starts to run after the ball but stops and changes direction away from the ball about 4-5 yards from the ball when the ball was at the top of the penalty area, the white defenders stop when they see the AR raise his flag, I yell at him "no offside lower the flag", another blue attacker who was in an onside position comes in and gets a shot off that misses wide. All of this happened within about 3 seconds. AR should not have raised his flag until the offside blue attacker played the ball. Blue coach yells at me that his team practices that play and the AR threw off the timing and distracted his players. White coach is yelling that I should have called the offside because the AR raised the flag. I get the game going quickly and the coaches calm down.
Same AR in the same game during the second half. Ball gets played high and long over the top toward the blue keeper. A white player in an offside position is running after the ball toward the keeper but from my view the keeper was going to easily get to the ball first. With the ball 20 yards in front of the white player and 10 yards from the keeper, the AR raises his flag for offside. I ignore him and wait to see what will happen. Keeper kicks the ball but shanks it out of play. I tell my AR to lower the flag because the white player never played the ball. After the game the AR tells me he raised the flag because he thought the white attacker and blue keeper might collide, so he raised the flag early. I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what we think might happen. I asked him if he would stop play if there was a ball in the middle of the field with two players from opposing teams running toward each other to get the ball. He said "no." My response was, "so, why would you raise the flag in a similar situation when an attacker in an offside position who has not played the ball but is running at the keeper who is moving toward the ball?" His answer, "I get it, I should leave the flag down until the offside attacker either interferes or plays the ball." Me, "Exactly." Lesson learned and now we will have one less referee misapplying the LOTG.
Same AR in the same game during the second half. Ball gets played high and long over the top toward the blue keeper. A white player in an offside position is running after the ball toward the keeper but from my view the keeper was going to easily get to the ball first. With the ball 20 yards in front of the white player and 10 yards from the keeper, the AR raises his flag for offside. I ignore him and wait to see what will happen. Keeper kicks the ball but shanks it out of play. I tell my AR to lower the flag because the white player never played the ball. After the game the AR tells me he raised the flag because he thought the white attacker and blue keeper might collide, so he raised the flag early. I informed him that player safety is important but we must follow the LOTG and there is no guidance in the LOTG that tells us to call a foul or infraction because of what we think might happen. I asked him if he would stop play if there was a ball in the middle of the field with two players from opposing teams running toward each other to get the ball. He said "no." My response was, "so, why would you raise the flag in a similar situation when an attacker in an offside position who has not played the ball but is running at the keeper who is moving toward the ball?" His answer, "I get it, I should leave the flag down until the offside attacker either interferes or plays the ball." Me, "Exactly." Lesson learned and now we will have one less referee misapplying the LOTG.
futboldad1
PREMIER
I very much enjoy your posts. But, as I see it, that analogy is not the best given that whoever reaches the ball first the play is legal, wheres if the white attacker gets there before the GK it's not a legal play....so why risk the collision? Just to make a point? Surely there has to be room for common sense when interpreting LOTG? There is absolutely something I could be missing or not understanding in this.
Again, I'm not bashing you. You bring a lot of value to the forum.
Same situation for me this weekend as an AR but in the opposite. I hold for second waiting to raise whether or not the offending player in the offside position will play the ball or otherwise interfere with play while a defender goes to collect the ball. As soon as the kick happens, the parents bench goes crazy yelling "offside offside". I hold my flag down and get a nod from the CR who acknowledges what's happening. CR gets flack for it. I had a great CR who I hope will agree to be my mentor. CR clearly explained the rule to the coach at the half who was unhappy I was slow to raise my flag.
I also had 2 of the goalkeeper save situations. In the first, the rebound came and the offensive player was VERY VERY clearly in a way offside position when the play was made. Player and coach argued but CR just said "you were way offside" and called for the kick. CR (same guy) had the guts to disallow the goal. On the second with a different CR, the player was just barely onside when the play was made but then she moved past the defensive line to kick the rebound....goal....parents screamed for offside.
Surfref
PREMIER
I completely understand your point of view and it took me a while to adjust to the new interpretation. I wish my Jedi powers could help the Force show me the future to prevent all injuries on the field, but that is just not possible. There is a really fine line between the "stop play early common sense approach" and affecting the outcome of the game by deviating from the LOTG.
The offside player has not violated Law 11 and the play is perfectly legal up until the point the offside attacker plays the ball or interferes with play. I have seen many of these plays where the keeper blasts the ball up field to a teammate that either gets a shot off or starts a promising attack or the keeper gets the ball in their hands and is able to play the ball up field to a teammate. These scenarios happen far more often then a collision between a keeper and offside opponent. I can count on one hand how many minor collisions over the past 10 years I have had in my games between an offside player and a keeper and not one has resulted in an injury. The only time I have had a player injured was when the keeper got to the ball first and blasted a low line drive up field and the offside attacker (good 15 yards from the keeper) jumped trying to head the ball and took the ball in the face breaking his nose. I have also seen many times where the offside player realizes they are offside or hears the coach, teammates or spectators yelling "Offside" and either stop or change direction before getting to the ball. If you make the offside call too early, then you are penalizing a player and team that should not be penalized. A good number of coaches and U14 and above players are aware of the Law 11 changes and tactically exploit the changes.